Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism

[Ulla]

I decided to do exactly this: I cut ALL fat from my diet, keeping it as low as possible (under 20 grams per day) and certainly NO PUFA. I ate 100 grams of LEAN protein (sometimes more) and massive amounts of sugar, ripe fruits and OJ. I paid close attention to my calcium phosphorous ratio as well as other minerals and made certain that I got plenty of sunshine, vit. A, vit. K and especially vit. E with lots of Progest-E too.

Hey
What would you think about starches?

I am in phase that I go as low as possible with fats in my diet and lately I am not sure if it is good idea to combine starches and simple sugars (fructose) in a diet.
For example... for breakfast eating rice and cooked apples together. Or potatoes for lunch, ripe bananas for dinner.

Would you think that someone should go starches or fructose only or is it okay if they are both included in diet, but of course, keeping fats very low.

 

[tara]

or fructose only

There aren't many (any?) foods with fructose as the only sugar. I wouldn't recommend getting all your carbs from refined fructose powder for any length of time - short on micronutrients for using it well. By all means try some and see if it works for you if you want.

If Peat is right, it may well be that including some foods with fructose (or sucrose) with starchy meals would help with using the starch-derived glucose better.

I'd also be cautious about being any more restrictive with diet when one is already chronically short on calories.

 

[cdg]

There aren't many (any?) foods with fructose as the only sugar. I wouldn't recommend getting all your carbs from refined fructose powder for any length of time - short on micronutrients for using it well. By all means try some and see if it works for you if you want.

If Peat is right, it may well be that including some foods with fructose (or sucrose) with starchy meals would help with using the starch-derived glucose better.

I'd also be cautious about being any more restrictive with diet when one is already chronically short on calories.

Think the problem with starches is their glycemic index is such that they encourage high insulin response which in turn turns them into fats and depletes blood sugar big time.

 

[tara]

Think the problem with starches is their glycemic index is such that they encourage high insulin response which in turn turns them into fats and depletes blood sugar big time.

Yes, I think this is one of the problems Peat points to. But doesn't he also suggest that adding a bit of sugar in the same meal can help with using the glucose well? Some people seem to do fine with high sugar (fructose+glucose, lactose)/low starch, but some do better with the reverse. And very few people eat only or mainly fructose - there isn't really a way to do it with real food.

 

[cdg]

Yes, I think this is one of the problems Peat points to. But doesn't he also suggest that adding a bit of sugar in the same meal can help with using the glucose well? Some people seem to do fine with high sugar (fructose+glucose, lactose)/low starch, but some do better with the reverse. And very few people eat only or mainly fructose - there isn't really a way to do it with real food.

As you know his favorite way to get fructose and sugar is via sweet ripe low starchy fruits. Some starches also can increase endotoxins. Depending on ones bacteria starches may or may not be such a good idea

 

[tara]

Some starches also can increase endotoxins. Depending on ones bacteria starches may or may not be such a good idea

Yes, I agree, that's the other potential problem Peat points to with starches, as you say, depending on one's personal set of bacteria. And yes, I agree he generally favours sweet fruit and milk for carbs. But he hasn't ruled out starches as unworkable for everyone - I see that as a matter of trying things and seeing what works.

I took Ulla to be considering it possibly better to separate starches and sugars (or just fructose) in separate meals - so that's what I was responding to. I don't recall Peat saying anything to support this tactic?

Given a context of chronic under-eating, I'd be concerned that trying to eliminate starches would make it even harder to eat enough, especially while also eating low fat, so that's one reason I wouldn't make it such a high priority at this point if it were me. Though if it were possible to reliably eat enough and experiment with more fruit and less starch, that might be worthwhile.

 

[cdg]

Yes, I agree, that's the other potential problem Peat points to with starches, as you say, depending on one's personal set of bacteria. And yes, I agree he generally favours sweet fruit and milk for carbs. But he hasn't ruled out starches as unworkable for everyone - I see that as a matter of trying things and seeing what works.

I took Ulla to be considering it possibly better to separate starches and sugars (or just fructose) in separate meals - so that's what I was responding to. I don't recall Peat saying anything to support this tactic?

Given a context of chronic under-eating, I'd be concerned that trying to eliminate starches would make it even harder to eat enough, especially while also eating low fat, so that's one reason I wouldn't make it such a high priority at this point if it were me. Though if it were possible to reliably eat enough and experiment with more fruit and less starch, that might be worthwhile.

Suppose you have to be pretty judious on what starches to eat. I know Jasmin rice has a very low glycemic index and that maybe a good one to include

 

[tara]

Suppose you have to be pretty judious on what starches to eat. I know Jasmin rice has a very low glycemic index and that maybe a good one to include

Yeah, maybe. Depends on whether problematic gut bacteria are a key problem for the particular person, though. Personally, I think potatoes usually do me more good than harm, and better than rice, but I don't eat massive servings of either - getting more sugar than starch overall lately.

The other point I was making was that fruit is not all fructose - some lean more to fructose, some more to glucose, but most of them have a fair amount of both. Trying to eat all fructose might have some short-term uses, for some people (seems like it worked well for TBP), but doesn't seem like a sustainable plan for most of us.

 

[Koveras]

Yes you can, if you eat a fat deficient diet, your body will use its fat stores for normal bodily processes involving fat. The carbs and protein won't be stored as fat so even though you are eating at maintanance or even above, you will still be losing fat and any excess energy will be dissapated as heat production.

lol no

 

[Zachs]

lol no

Lol yea.

 

[Brian]

lol no

The high carb, low fat path to fatloss doesn't seem to work very well if you have really bad endotoxin and small intestine infection. Probably because you can't absorb enough of what you eat to lower stress hormones. But in my experience it should work if you get your intestine and liver cleaned out decently first.

I also think it's a bad idea to use milk as a staple when you first begin, because you likely won't have nearly enough stomach acid and protein enzymes to digest it significantly. Undigested milk protein probably makes really nasty endotoxin.

 

[DaveFoster]

@Zachs

The desaturase enzyme desaturates palmitic acid into omega-9. Palmitic acid is either ingested or formed from carbohydrate; I can't find evidence either way for its use upon adipose tissue, which is around 30% palmitic acid.

You won't necessarily dissipate protein and carbohydrates as heat; they're more thermogenic than fats, especially protein, but the amount of calories you eat is dependent on leptin signalling, and thyroid activity may or may not be sufficient to stimulate cellular respiration for the amount of calories consumed. It depends on the individual.

 

[cdg]

The high carb, low fat path to fatloss doesn't seem to work very well if you have really bad endotoxin. Probably because you can't absorb enough of what you eat to lower stress hormones. But in my experience it should work if you get your intestine and liver cleaned out decently first.

I also think it's a bad idea to use milk as a staple when you first begin, because you likely won't have nearly enough stomach acid and protein enzymes to digest it significantly. Undigested milk protein probably makes really nasty endotoxin.

But raw milk will often restore good gut bacteria and stomach acid. Detox from milk is often mistaken as milk intolerance as Ray says it takes a week or two to reestablish things back to normal

 

[Brian]

But raw milk will often restore good gut bacteria and stomach acid. Detox from milk is often mistaken as milk intolerance as Ray says it takes a week or two to reestablish things back to normal

Yeah, I've noticed that raw milk digests much better too. If a person with a low metabolism can't get raw milk I think it's probably best to stick to something more condensed and pre-denatured like greek yogurt for the majority of their dairy intake.

But most importantly I think the priority is to clear out old endotoxin if possible as that might be one of the major things inhibiting your metabolism.

That's interesting it can restore stomach acid. I remember reading that high stomach calcium is sensed by a specific part of the stomach and is one of the main mechanisms for stimulating acid release. But I wonder if the calcium isn't fully sensed if you consume a large amount of homogenized/pasteurized milk while in a low metabolic state.

 

[cdg]

Yeah, I've noticed that raw milk digests much better too. If a person with a low metabolism can't get raw milk I think it's probably best to stick to something more condensed and pre-denatured like greek yogurt for the majority of their dairy intake.

But most importantly I think the priority is to clear out old endotoxin if possible as that might be one of the major things inhibiting your metabolism.

That's interesting it can restore stomach acid. I remember reading that high stomach calcium is sensed by a specific part of the stomach and is one of the main mechanisms for stimulating acid release. But I wonder if the calcium isn't fully sensed if you consume a large amount of homogenized/pasteurized milk while in a low metabolic state.

That's interesting it can restore stomach acid. I remember reading that high stomach calcium is sensed by a specific part of the stomach and is one of the main mechanisms for stimulating acid release. But I wonder if the calcium isn't fully sensed if you consume a large amount of homogenized/pasteurized milk while in a low metabolic state.

It should be fine with homogenized/pasteurized milk with lactose intack and the milk is sweetened I suspect

 

[Ulla]

There aren't many (any?) foods with fructose as the only sugar. I wouldn't recommend getting all your carbs from refined fructose powder for any length of time - short on micronutrients for using it well. By all means try some and see if it works for you if you want.

I'd also be cautious about being any more restrictive with diet when one is already chronically short on calories.

I was clumsy in my question. Sorry.
I didn't mean fructose only as a fructose powder. I meant whole fruits.

My question should be like:
Would you think that someone should go starches or simple sugars (fructose, glucose, lactose) only or is it okay if they are both included in diet, but of course, keeping fats very low?

GOAL: PUFA depletion without fat gain.

- First I was doing fruits, dairy, on occasion starches.
- Now I am half:half.
- I was listening McDougall and he is more for starches and less simple sugars.
- I am in between now. I eat everything - from simple sugars to starches. Whole ripe fruits, potatoes, bread, corn, rice, dairy... but I keep everything LOW/FREE FAT.

I know diet is long term relationship and so far I feel okay... but I would like to hear some other opinions because 14 days is nothing and I don't want to screw up.

My calorie intake is pretty much stable; 2500 kcal.
Fats under 20 g.

 

[DaveFoster]

Unless you're a Polynesian or Kitavan, or even South American, there's no reason to eat starches. Maybe if you're Asian you can get away with rice.

 

[Ulla]

Nothing from above :)

My concerns started when my triglycerides suddenly increased (most of the carbs were simple carbs).
I got afraid of getting fatter so I lowered fruit intake and to compensate calorie intake, I included starches.

Is possible having higher triglycerides (from 36 to 88.5) but stay lean? Is that a healthy thing?

Now that I consume starches and fruits together I think (but not sure) I'm not that lean anymore.
Then on the other half I see so many cases on the Google that got lean with starches, so I assume they shouldn't be fattening, right.

And now I am back on the beginning with my question.
What is better.
When I say *lean* I don't mean to be like shredded totally - I mean like nicely visible abs, no cellulite. At the moment I am guessing I am at 20 % bf.

Some here say starches are totally fine, some opposite.
Probably no one really can't know what is the best for me, but I like to read about others experiences and get more width about it and be more courageous to perceive, act.

 

[tara]

Would you think that someone should go starches or simple sugars (fructose, glucose, lactose) only or is it okay if they are both included in diet, but of course, keeping fats very low?

Peat recommends favouring sugars from ripe fruit, milk, honey, maybe some sucrose when you can't get suitable fruits and honey. For the reasons mentioned previously - endotoxin and insulin. For starches, he generally favours potatoes over grains, and amongst grains, well cooked masa harina, white rice, or oats. At a higher level, he recommends learning about physiology, and observing how your body responds to particular foods, avoiding foods that allergic or gut--irritant for you personally, and eating for a high metabolism.

I say, it depends on you and your system and what it handles best at the moment - eg whether your blood sugars seems to be more stable with all or mainly sugars, or with m0re starch, and whether you have gut microbiota that give you trouble when you fed them starch.

I don't think there is a guaranteed solution that will work for everyone, on this as with many factors. No way to be sure ahead of time what will work, however much advice you get.
There are people here who credit their recovery to ditching starch, and others who ate mainly starch, and many who are doing something in between.

 

[superhuman]

The high carb, low fat path to fatloss doesn't seem to work very well if you have really bad endotoxin and small intestine infection. Probably because you can't absorb enough of what you eat to lower stress hormones. But in my experience it should work if you get your intestine and liver cleaned out decently first.

I also think it's a bad idea to use milk as a staple when you first begin, because you likely won't have nearly enough stomach acid and protein enzymes to digest it significantly. Undigested milk protein probably makes really nasty endotoxin.

Well using milk and carrot salad will help with all the cleaning out.

Strange that RP has never talked about milk needing enough stomach acid and protein enzymes to digest it.