Notes Toward An "Optimal Peat Diet"

[narouz]

On the "dogma" thing:
I don't think Peat intended to be dogmatic with the 2qts milk:1qt oj statement.
And I don't mean to adhere to it in a dogmatic way.

That said: Peat did say that,
and it is worthwhile, I think, to wonder why he did,
and wonder if it fits in with his generalizations as a whole.

You're focusing, as you note, on the caloric angle,
with your eye on avoiding weight gain,
or even weight loss.
I sympathize and support, to an extent, those motives.
But it is not my exclusive or even my central focus.
I guess my central focus is more generalized health: physical, mental, hormonal, etc.
Now, that would imply the component of a healthy weight.
I would hope that by focusing on general health
I would also achieve healthy weight.
Peat says that that is readily achievable.
And, I'm willing--grudgingly--to sacrifice some weight gain in the short term
toward that more general goal.

Maybe you are still working through whether or not
you believe that the "Peat program" adds up for you,
theoretically and experientially,
as a feasible diet in terms of achieving your desired weight?
I completely understand
and I think that's a great question to explore.

And it would seem that you may think you are finding contradictions within
Peat's guidelines for healthy eating:
namely, can one eat like Peat says and keep a healthy weight and slim, attractive body?

Maybe this is a great challenge to the flexibility of Peat's general diet guidelines:
can the amounts and proportions and contents of the diet
flex in such a way as to support your weight goals.

On the other hand--to play devil's advocate--
you may be proceeding under the general view of "calories in, calories out."
It would seem to me that Peat doesn't buy into that formula,
at least not completely.
So...you may be trying to apply caloric computations to Peat
that he would not agree with.

I have never counted calories.
I'm not saying I can't restrict myself--
just that I don't do it via the calorie counting method.
What did you say you believe you need to restrict yourself to
in order to achieve your weight goals?--1600 calories.
See...I'm so ignorant about calories that means next to nothing to me.
Isn't that really low?

Has Peat made general comments about average caloric intake recommendations?
This could be a blindspot for me--because of the bias I just noted.
But it seems to me that he generally tends to approach healthy weight
by cranking the metabolism up.
He's seems loathe to address it in terms of calorie restriction, strictly speaking.

I guess what I'm getting at is: maybe you are trying to impose your own
weight-control methods and views onto Peat...?

If so, it's fine, to me, for you to do that.
I think it's a legitimate line of questioning:
as I've said, I've gained 20 lbs on Peating, and I'm not happy about it.
And it is a quite persistent rap against him.

But, I think we need to be objective with the chart.
I think we should mainly be about trying to figure out what/how Peat says to eat.
Maybe we will have doubts about whether that works in terms of weight gain/loss.
But I think we should sortuv suspend that skepticism
or put it in the background.
Once we figure out how to represent Peat's eating ideas in a chart,
maybe we will end up believing that it will lead to weight gain.
Or maybe we will figure out a way to juggle the variables/ranges of the chart
in order to satisfy ourselves about weight considerations.

 

[Primal2Peat]

Do any of you think orange juice is really necessary?

I like it alright, but I'd rather drink more milk. I'd rather drink 3 qts of milk, than 2 and 1 qt of oj.

Over the next few weeks, I might experiment with just coffee/gelatin/milk/honey to start the day, (probably 3 or 4 cups of those combos, with a little bit of beef liver) then, just 3 qts of milk to satisfy me the rest of the day. It works well with my calorie needs. (Oh, and a bit of chocolate.)

I just don't ever crave orange juice.

 

[key]

^use cronometer, some oj is good for folate,hesperidin,etc

An optimal peat diet is individualized by definition since a part of healthy eating is enjoying food and not everyone likes the same thing. There are general nutrient guidelines but individual foods/recipes will vary from person to person.

 

[Isadora]

narouz, I updated the cronometer stuff to where I pretended I wanted to gain 2 lbs/week, so I can be allowed around 2800 calories/day and then filled in the remaining "blanks" (besides your "precious" :) 2qts milk/1 qt OJ) with Peat-approved foods. I happened to put liver in, I know it's supposed to be once/week, but that's not important. Anyway...

It doesn't look to me like there is a whole lot of food there. What do you say? And I would force myself to fit in all those fluids, that much I know.

Now, narouz, these same ratios can be kept and one should only work on the amounts of each food in order to have the desired amount of calories intake. 1 quart of milk and 1/2 quart of OJ would work better for someone like me and then I'd have some room left for other foods as well. Even 1 quart of milk is too much, and I plan to replace it with cheese, as I said.

Or, if your frame/age/sex allows for it, yeah, I guess one can swallow religiously the three quarts of milk+OJ and still have room for some other stuff.

Cronometer was a bit optimistic in recommending for my frame 1800 calories for maintenance of current weight. It figures, Cronometer only uses my height/weight/age and some statistics to figure things out, I have no way of telling it that I am hypothyroid and I have a low body temperature, etc. From my own experience, 1600 calories is safer, but my goal is to reach 2200 within a year, so raising my metabolism considerably, while keeping my current weight. My BMI is 22, which Wii is extatic about :) -- I am not, I think I could use more muscle, I am the "false slim" type and I'd like to change that.

Now, looking at the nutrients, obviously, excellent support for thyroid there, with huge amounts of zinc/selenium and large quantities of tyrosine (check out the red pathway, 1.11.1.8) and its precursor, phenylalanine, maybe worth the excess tryptophan... I will attempt to tweak the ratios in order to see how I can reach the highest amounts of tyrosine and phenylalanine and keep the tryptophan to a minimum.

 

[narouz]

...then filled in the remaining "blanks" (besides your "precious" :) 2qts milk/1 qt OJ) with Peat-approved foods. I happened to put liver in, I know it's supposed to be once/week, but that's not important....

Please, Isadora, I do think you've got me wrong on the preciousness to me of the 2:1 ratio.
It's not very precious to me.
It's just something Peat said, and more than once.
So--I do consider it along with all of his other general nutrional statements about proportions.
He has made other statements with a different (more like 1:1) basic ratio,
and he has made statements saying that ideal rations are not known
and statements saying that ratios are variable within certain limits.

If something is precious to me it is just the general methodology:
-survey as much of Peat's ideas as possible
-record the general guiding statements
-collate and compare them
-see if we can discern a general pattern or patterns.

The chronometer/calorie thing is very interesting to me
because as I said I have a personal disposition away from such modes of analyis
and because I am quite the dummy with all that math and computing. :)

So I approve (not that you need it), but with some concerns:
I worry that
instead of trying to make a chart accurately reflecting Peat's general dietary principles,
you may be trying to create a
"Weight-Control Through Calorically Minded Peat-Eating" chart.

And that's fine!
But it is a very different goal
than cleanly and objectively and accurately representing Peat's general nutritional ideas.
Don't you agree?

I mean, as I say:
-Peat hardly ever expresses his general nutritional ideas primarily in terms of calories.
-Peat has said pretty clearly that he doesn't agree with the
"calories in, calories out" approach to diet.

But those would seem to be your starting points.

 

[narouz]

^use cronometer, some oj is good for folate,hesperidin,etc

An optimal peat diet is individualized by definition since a part of healthy eating is enjoying food and not everyone likes the same thing. There are general nutrient guidelines but individual foods/recipes will vary from person to person.

Just to chime in:
I very much agree with this view
and see no conflict with holding that view
while also in trying to make a chart reflecting those Peat "general nutrient guidelines."

 

[narouz]

Do any of you think orange juice is really necessary?

I like it alright, but I'd rather drink more milk. I'd rather drink 3 qts of milk, than 2 and 1 qt of oj.

Over the next few weeks, I might experiment with just coffee/gelatin/milk/honey to start the day, (probably 3 or 4 cups of those combos, with a little bit of beef liver) then, just 3 qts of milk to satisfy me the rest of the day. It works well with my calorie needs. (Oh, and a bit of chocolate.)

I just don't ever crave orange juice.

Again:
I see nothing at all wrong from a Peat perspective
with juggling those major food group ratios like that, Primal2Peat.
And the Peat chart I imagine would reflect and allow for that kind of flexibility.

I would add though, that there would be limits to such variability
if such a chart is to have any meaning or value.
I mean, if you had said,
"I don't like to drink all that orange juice.
I'd like to substitute soy milk instead."

The chart wouldn't flex to that degree.

Would this mean the chart would be "Authoritarian"?

 

[narouz]

And just on the whole Cronometer thing:

See, I barely know what it is.
Isn't it primarily a way of tallying calories?
It would seem that it also supplies nutrient values?

But here's the thing:
-Peat has never said, to my knowledge, that one needs a Cronometer to eat healthily.
-Peat seldom expresses his general dietary recommendations in terms of calories.

Please don't get me wrong.
I am not against the Cronometer.
I am just wondering if the intense use of one
in figuring out a "Starting Point Peat Diet"
1. is necessary.
2. could reveal a methodology that is overly focused on calories.

Now, I find this use of the Cronometer interesting and maybe helpful.
But, what should be our primary mission with the Peat chart?
1. Calorie-checking Peat's dietary statements to see if they are conducive to weight-control.
or
2. Distilling Peat's general nutritional expressions into a (relatively) concise chart.

 

[chris]

I use cronometer to check I am not missing on an any nutrients.

 

[narouz]

I use cronometer to check I am not missing on an any nutrients.

Again, just so everyone understands, I have nothing against this mighty Cron-O-Meter.

What I'm asking is,
is the use of the Cron-O-Meter as
the primary tool with which to formulate "A Peat Starting Point Diet"...
is that apt?

-given that Peat doesn't subscribe to the "Calories In, Calories Out"
school of metabolic calculation.
-given that Peat seldom expresses his general dietary ideas in terms of calories
-given that Peat seldom finds it necessary to forefront specific nutrients
when expressing his general nutritional ideas
(that is, he will recommend occasional shellfish, say,
instead of talking about copper or zinc or other trace minerals or nutrients).
-and given that Peat generally seems to try to avoid forefronting discussion of weight-loss
when it come to expressing his dietary advice


Is the Cron-O-Meter an appropriate symbol, if you will,
for expressing our primary methodology in figuring out "A Peat Starting Point Diet"?

If you see where I'm coming from,
I think you may agree that putting aside the Cron-O-Meter
would streamline our job considerably.
That is: we should not have to concern ourselves primarily
with the question of whether Peat's general dietary recommendations
add up to a diet which will control weight gain,
nor will we have to concern ourselves primarily with whether his diet provides
all the nutrients in sufficient amounts.

We should instead, I think, just try to focus on figuring out
how to represent Peat's general ideas accurately.
It is for another day and another chart to fisk that chart
and judge whether the chart is weight-control friendly
and nutrient sufficient. :)

 

[Dean]

In essence, what is being discussed here is whether the overriding purpose of this forum/this chart/this graph/this whatever is to be a vehicle for discussing or expounding upon Peat's dietary principles in their purest form or whether the goal here is to convert as many people to Peating by presenting his principles in line with the realities of our impatient/quick fix/ short-term weight-centric fixation on what constitutes healthy eating and general health.

It's what the great starch debates have essentially been about too. Starches seem to help alot of people stick to Peat's main principles (PUFA, gluten, soy, etc. avoidance). It seems that many people that "fail" at or abandon Peating because of weight gain.

So, like the starch debate, I see both sides of the argument. Yet, like in the starch debate, I tend to come down on the side of Narouz, albeit less stridently as I also think the nature of Peat's principles and his attitude overall lend itself more to a free flow, experimental/experiential, non-rigid, supportive of all comers, approach.

In other words... Charlie is the moderator. The forum is his creation. He gets to decide. And the rest of us will like it.

 

[pboy]

yes narouz....calories in calories out is a really inaccurate way of measuring true energy moment to moment, day to day...just think about the difference alone in
whether or not you're breathing well (oxidative vs nonoxidative metabolism), theres like a 2-7ish times increase in energy production from the same amount of food. Plus
how does being hydrated and sleep fit into things? Having the right pressure (via circulating sugar, salt) to maximize energy production...for example someone with too low a blood pressure will not extract sufficient nutrients from food, therefore generate or even deplete themselves of energy by eating certain things during such a state...but on paper it was calories in. Raw celery has like 10 calories a stick, but it is known that the effort digesting it takes more energy from the body than it gives back....whereas 10 calories of OJ would give more energy back than it took to digest it.

How about a ratio type suggestive mode? More so like...a general amount of servings of each type of food in relation to how much they are all eaten...so you can eat as much
or little as you want/need but make sure to include a balanced ratio of all the necessary dietary components

 

[charlie]

In other words... Charlie is the moderator. The forum is his creation. He gets to decide. And the rest of us will like it.

Yeh j, are you listening?

 

[narouz]

In essence, what is being discussed here is whether the overriding purpose of this forum/this chart/this graph/this whatever is to be a vehicle for discussing or expounding upon Peat's dietary principles in their purest form or whether the goal here is to convert as many people to Peating by presenting his principles in line with the realities of our impatient/quick fix/ short-term weight-centric fixation on what constitutes healthy eating and general health.

It's what the great starch debates have essentially been about too. Starches seem to help alot of people stick to Peat's main principles (PUFA, gluten, soy, etc. avoidance). It seems that many people that "fail" at or abandon Peating because of weight gain.

So, like the starch debate, I see both sides of the argument. Yet, like in the starch debate, I tend to come down on the side of Narouz, albeit less stridently as I also think the nature of Peat's principles and his attitude overall lend itself more to a free flow, experimental/experiential, non-rigid, supportive of all comers, approach.

In other words... Charlie is the moderator. The forum is his creation. He gets to decide. And the rest of us will like it.

Dean:
This is a weight I'm not sure Charlie will want to bear,
but I trust him!

Just a few thoughts:

"...or whether the goal here is to convert as many people to Peating..."

This is definitely not my motive. "Conversion" I mean.
I guess though, to continue the religious theme,
that I would like to position the chart in a role
akin perhaps to those chuches where, if you come and want to belong and understand,
you are welcomed
and the path is made clearer for you.

And conversely, I've been against a role similar to that of an occult or mystic society
--I don't know: like Freemasonry or perhaps some forms of Tantric Buddhism or some forms of martial arts--
where admission depends upon one's ability to jump through some hoops:
time devoted to study of spiritual texts, secret handshakes, proving knowledge through study, etc.
I mention this because (you may think I jest)
some here actually--when you get behind the obfuscation--seem to want Peat to remain obscure,
and believe that only those who read all of his thousands of pages and
listen to hundreds of hours of interviews--
only they deserve the right to "come into the Knowledge of Peat."
I think they secretly delight in the "specialness" of being quasi-mystic Peatians,
and don't want their rarity diluted.

As I said above,
any chart which has any value or meaning
will also express some limitations.
Does this equate to Dogma!
Does it mean that in my soul I am an Authoritarian!

I don't think so.

 

[narouz]

yes narouz....calories in calories out is a really inaccurate way of measuring true energy moment to moment, day to day...just think about the difference alone in
whether or not you're breathing well (oxidative vs nonoxidative metabolism), theres like a 2-7ish times increase in energy production from the same amount of food. Plus
how does being hydrated and sleep fit into things? Having the right pressure (via circulating sugar, salt) to maximize energy production...for example someone with too low a blood pressure will not extract sufficient nutrients from food, therefore generate or even deplete themselves of energy by eating certain things during such a state...but on paper it was calories in. Raw celery has like 10 calories a stick, but it is known that the effort digesting it takes more energy from the body than it gives back....whereas 10 calories of OJ would give more energy back than it took to digest it.

How about a ratio type suggestive mode? More so like...a general amount of servings of each type of food in relation to how much they are all eaten...so you can eat as much
or little as you want/need but make sure to include a balanced ratio of all the necessary dietary components

Good points all, pboy!
And "yes" to the "ratio suggestive mode."

 

[gretchen]

In essence, what is being discussed here is whether the overriding purpose of this forum/this chart/this graph/this whatever is to be a vehicle for discussing or expounding upon Peat's dietary principles in their purest form or whether the goal here is to convert as many people to Peating by presenting his principles in line with the realities of our impatient/quick fix/ short-term weight-centric fixation on what constitutes healthy eating and general health.

It's what the great starch debates have essentially been about too. Starches seem to help alot of people stick to Peat's main principles (PUFA, gluten, soy, etc. avoidance). It seems that many people that "fail" at or abandon Peating because of weight gain.

So, like the starch debate, I see both sides of the argument. Yet, like in the starch debate, I tend to come down on the side of Narouz, albeit less stridently as I also think the nature of Peat's principles and his attitude overall lend itself more to a free flow, experimental/experiential, non-rigid, supportive of all comers, approach.

In other words... Charlie is the moderator. The forum is his creation. He gets to decide. And the rest of us will like it.

Dean:
This is a weight I'm not sure Charlie will want to bear,
but I trust him!

Just a few thoughts:

"...or whether the goal here is to convert as many people to Peating..."

This is definitely not my motive. "Conversion" I mean.
I guess though, to continue the religious theme,
that I would like to position the chart in a role
akin perhaps to those chuches where, if you come and want to belong and understand,
you are welcomed
and the path is made clearer for you.

And conversely, I've been against a role similar to that of an occult or mystic society
--I don't know: like Freemasonry or perhaps some forms of Tantric Buddhism or some forms of martial arts--
where admission depends upon one's ability to jump through some hoops:
time devoted to study of spiritual texts, secret handshakes, proving knowledge through study, etc.
I mention this because (you may think I jest)
some here actually--when you get behind the obfuscation--seem to want Peat to remain obscure,
and believe that only those who read all of his thousands of pages and
listen to hundreds of hours of interviews--
only they deserve the right to "come into the Knowledge of Peat."
I think they secretly delight in the "specialness" of being quasi-mystic Peatians,
and don't want their rarity diluted.

As I said above,
any chart which has any value or meaning
will also express some limitations.
Does this equate to Dogma!
Does it mean that in my soul I am an Authoritarian!

I don't think so.

The only ones who are going to get Peat are the ones who really want to, and also, those whose lives have led them here, through their own hard work and also through destiny (the hand of God possibly even). The Peatian types are those who have been searching and trying things, sometimes for decades (but not always, this group also has a lot of really bright young people), learning what they can and gleaning whatever insight they can get out of what little has been offered in the mainstream.

Those who don't care, who haven't really sought the truth, are not able to understand Peat. You can send them to his website, e-mail endless numbers of supporting blog posts, interviews, and info, and none of it will register. They aren't totally ignorant, nor are we rarified. They don't understand because they don't want to. They don't have the ability to. If they wanted to understand, they would find a way to. Ignorance is a choice.

 

[Isadora]

Were we having a serious *debate*? Are we *divided*? There are those who understand Peat and those who don't?

I'm sorry, I shall withdraw politely, I don't want to upset anybody. Sorry for sharing what you seem to think is heretic thinking.

I will still not agree to put on the "beneficial" weight, those saintly glycogen pounds you all seem to be in favor of. I will skip that step quite peatfully, because it is possible. It's about the composition of the diet, not about quantities of food. "Calories in, calories out" approach? Well, on average, yes, of course, that's how it works. Or else, I am a freak and my weight has always reflected my diet -- again, on average... Metabolic changes don't happen overnight and my life is stress-free and sedentary, so... Where would extra hundreds of calories dissipate? Once I start exercising more, etc. I will be happy to eat more, should I begin to LOSE weight!

 

[narouz]

Were we having a serious *debate*? Are we *divided*? There are those who understand Peat and those who don't?

I'm sorry, I shall withdraw politely, I don't want to upset anybody. Sorry for sharing what you seem to think is heretic thinking.

I will still not agree to put on the "beneficial" weight, those saintly glycogen pounds you all seem to be in favor of. I will skip that step quite peatfully, because it is possible. It's about the composition of the diet, not about quantities of food. "Calories in, calories out" approach? Well, on average, yes, of course, that's how it works. Or else, I am a freak and my weight has always reflected my diet -- again, on average... Metabolic changes don't happen overnight and my life is stress-free and sedentary, so... Where would extra hundreds of calories dissipate? Once I start exercising more, etc. I will be happy to eat more, should I begin to LOSE weight!

Isadora-
I didn't mean that at all--wanting you to quit or shut-up (as your smiley sadly shows).

I just wanted you to step back a bit and examine your motives.
Exploring and challenging whether a Peat diet is possible
without weight gain--without out even short-term weight gain--
is a very cool goal, in my opinion, and I've said so.
I'm fat on the Peat diet and I don't like it,
so you know I sympathize! :)

But if that is your raison d'être, if that is your almost exclusive mission,
...well, don't you think that is a different mission
than trying to put together a "Starting Point Peat Diet"
which would be only peripherally concerned with weight control?

It is my hope that you will simply recognize that they are two different enterprizes
and work on both of them.
Or you might think of your "Weight Watchers Peat Diet" as one supporting chart
of several supporting charts we might envision.

Maybe I'm wrong about Peat's view of "Calories In, Calories Out."
I don't think he ignores the existence of calories.
I just think he thinks it's not that simple.
And when Peat does talk about weight control
he would seem to have more than one approach:
most often he seems to direct people toward lowering their fat consumption.
Also, if you read back a ways into this thread to approximately the point that a poster named
"kettlebell" joined in,
you will see that he spotted a great and previously sortuv "buried" alternative weight-control view
of Peat's (though Peat didn't couch it like that)
focusing on manipulation of the 33/33/33% chart,
of the carbohydrate portion of the chart.
As I've noted, Peat has made statements which would seem to show that he's not down with
a simple, isolated take on weight-control like "Calories In, Calories Out."
I think you've got to take that into consideration
if you're interested in accurately reflecting Peat.
Seems like that would be the first step--researching all that Peat says on the topic
and representing it in a chart,
trouble-shooting it, and then making your own sortuv
"Isadora's Peat-Influenced But Peat-Revised Weight-Control Diet."

So...please stay on in the discussion and mission!
First thing is to make sure we're all on the same approximate page
as to what the mission is! :)

 

[jyb]

The only ones who are going to get Peat are the ones who really want to, and also, those whose lives have led them here, through their own hard work and also through destiny (the hand of God possibly even). The Peatian types are those who have been searching and trying things, sometimes for decades (but not always, this group also has a lot of really bright young people), learning what they can and gleaning whatever insight they can get out of what little has been offered in the mainstream.

Those who don't care, who haven't really sought the truth, are not able to understand Peat. You can send them to his website, e-mail endless numbers of supporting blog posts, interviews, and info, and none of it will register. They aren't totally ignorant, nor are we rarified. They don't understand because they don't want to. They don't have the ability to. If they wanted to understand, they would find a way to. Ignorance is a choice.

Some people don't need to do a Peat diet at least in the short term. Most people I know have no obvious healthy issues (no hypo symptoms) and look healthy. No matter what junk they eat, they have more energy, don't have any issues with sleep, digestion or skin. They are basically healthier than me, and their thyroid is probably better, yet I do a strict Peat diet taking thyroid and other supps. So I don't blame them really for not caring so much about a science based diet. They just don't need it as much as I do, at least for now.

 

[Lucy]

Most people I know have no obvious healthy issues (no hypo symptoms) and look healthy. No matter what junk they eat, they have more energy, don't have any issues with sleep, digestion or skin.

Wow -- where on Earth do you live that you're surrounded by such people? I never saw it like that and I lived several places... even younger people seem to have lots of health issues. But it's a relative thing, and I guess even I look healthy despite not really being healthy at all :)