Ox Bile As A Gut Desinfectant?

[TheBeard]

I used it with every meal last year. One or two caps of the Vital Nutrients brand. It gave me extremely reliable and (but controllable) diarrhea every morning, directly after my breakfast. No other bowel movements. I am convinced the diarrhea was beneficial. I can't 100% contribute the quality of my health and life at the time to the ox bile, as I was doing a lot, but it was one of the best years of my life and I made great progress on all my health issues.

A major setback had me quitting the ox bile, but I am eager to retest it soon after reading @faisman say the effects are cumulative. That could explain a few observations I had made about my experience with it, but I'll need to test it. It may be that after a certain point, for some people, Ox Bile does more harm than good, and needs to be pulsed. It is an extremely bitter substance after all.

And Beard, I had PM'd you a few weeks ago and we briefly discussed our similar reactions, such as our mutual beneficial response to Augmentin.

(PS - My Rifaximin experiment was useless, just like you.)

Gotcha I remember our conversation now.

 

[Korven]

More interesting bile stuff:

• Rats injected with LPS downregulates the bile pump proteins in the liver and causes less bile to be excreted: https://www.researchgate.net/public...tion_of_bile_acids_and_organic_anions_in_rats
• Bile salts seem to have the capacity to "detoxify" LPS which makes it less harmful to the liver: Cellular and subcellular distribution of injected lipopolysaccharide in rat liver and its inactivation by bile salts - ScienceDirect

Maybe it's a good idea to occasionally "change the oil", so to speak, by taking high dose ox bile and/or TUDCA to replace bad bile acids such as DCA. 95% is recirculated so maybe you could swap out most of it with exogenous bile.

• Also, biliary flow can be promoted by combining ox bile with taurine: Sci-Hub | Combined Effect of Taurine and Ox Bile on Biliary Flow. Taurine 2, 93–97 | 10.1007/978-1-4899-0182-8_11
• Also it's fascinating how TUDCA prevents retinal degradation in mice and act cytoprotective: Bile acids in treatment of ocular disease

 

[Darleen]

I have to say I'm amazed at how my endotoxin/SIBO symptoms are reduced since I've started.
The best part is my hunger has come back with a vengeance. I had forgotten what it felt like to be hungry.

What other things that helped you do we share in common?

I have just been researching ox bile for sibo myself and started taking it. Even the small dose of 125 mg in between meals gives me a pretty significant reaction of what I’m assuming to be die-off. Lots more gas and gas pains. Thank you for sharing this!

 

[not_James_Bond]

This looks a decent product;
Bile Salts Booster with Taurine (Purified Ox Bile) - Gallbladder Supplements.

Thoughts????

 

[charlie]

Following with great interest. Looking forward to hearing more experiences with Ox Bile.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Following with great interest. Looking forward to hearing more experiences with Ox Bile.

me too. I have tried ox bile before, but perhaps haven’t used it enough. I am going to start testing it.

 

[opson123]

me too. I have tried ox bile before, but perhaps haven’t used it enough. I am going to start testing it.

Same here. I tried it before, but didn't really feel it benefited me in any way. I didn't get that diarrhea TheBeard and gately were talking about. I think I'll try it again.

 

[Vinny]

TUDCA dosages up to 500mg per day had no whatsoever effect on my gut, but I still have some in my cabinet and will try higher dosages.

 

[lvysaur]

There's a 1000 year old medieval antibacterial treatment called Bald's eyesalve which consists of onion, garlic, wine and bile salts. In a study this mixture showed potent broad-spectrum, anti-biofilm properties apparently due some synergistic effect between the ingredients:

This can probably also be achieved via capric acid + citric acid. Or butter + coconut oil + lemon juice + apple juice, if you want to use food.
Coconut Oil + Vinegar Or OJ = Potent Antibiotic

I have to say I'm amazed at how my endotoxin/SIBO symptoms are reduced since I've started.
The best part is my hunger has come back with a vengeance. I had forgotten what it felt like to be hungry.

Interesting, I had the same thing after using antibiotics (amoxicillin). Amazing, regular hunger. Perhaps indicative of SIBO?

 

[Inaut]

I took 4 gs of taurine yesterday afternoon. Explosivity

 

[gately]

Interesting, I had the same thing after using antibiotics (amoxicillin). Amazing, regular hunger. Perhaps indicative of SIBO?

That makes you, me, and beard helped by amoxicillin in very similar ways. It also restored my appetite the way Ox Bile does. (In my case it was more specifically Augmentin: Amoxicillin / Clauvlanic acid.) Interestingly, neither Beard nor I were helped by Rifaximin, the drug most commonly used to treat SIBO. So who knows what the exact mechanism of action is. But I also suspect the problem is rooted in the small intestine (the seat of pitta / fire in Ayurveda). This is where my Crohn's disease is situated.

If you trial some Ox Bile and benefit, that would make three people who were helped by both Amoxicillin and Ox Bile, and would be worth noting here, so if you try some please report back. It might indicate we all deal with a similar imbalance.

This is a little off-topic, and I post this for the posterity of google searchers, but Augmentin cured my ejaculatory anhedonia back in 2017. I made a series of posts here Been cured 6 months. Here's how I did it. if anyone is curious about that fun-filled time in my life.

Back to Ox Bile, I posted earlier how I've seen it help (even cure) psoriasis:

Is psoriasis a bowel disease? Successful treatment with bile acids and bioflavonoids suggests it is - PubMed
[Role of bile acids and endotoxins in the pathogenesis and therapy of psoriasis] - PubMed

Also, potentially of interest to some here is animal bile's role in traditional medicine:

Substitutes for Bear Bile for the Treatment of Liver Diseases: Research Progress and Future Perspective
Therapeutic uses of animal biles in traditional Chinese medicine: An ethnopharmacological, biophysical chemical and medicinal review

I've utilized various forms of bile supplements for about 8 years. My experience with myself and suggesting it to others over these years are that people with some excess pitta (Heat / Fire) in their constitutions seem to benefit from it the most.

 

[S-VV]

@gately is pitta related to the solar plexus/heart chakra?

 

[gately]

@gately is pitta related to the solar plexus/heart chakra?

Pitta is directly related to the small intestine, where it is "situated" in Ayurveda, and the small intestine corresponds to the heart, in Chinese Medicine, so their corresponding health are directly interrelated, imo. The chakra system is not really relevant to Ayurveda, despite what has been written ad-naseum by poorly trained Ayurvedic practitioners who have less than zero idea what they are talking about. I suppose you could think of Ayurvedic Medicine as a sister science to meditational and tantric Hinduism, where the chakra system (that has been popularized) has immense relevance, but even that would be a stretch. It'd be like saying western medicine is a sister science of Orthodox Christianity.

 

[TheBeard]

I have just been researching ox bile for sibo myself and started taking it. Even the small dose of 125 mg in between meals gives me a pretty significant reaction of what I’m assuming to be die-off. Lots more gas and gas pains. Thank you for sharing this!

I haven't had necessarily more gas, but definitely stronger smelling ones.
Apart from that, I didn't get the intense sweats I usually get the first three days of starting antibiotics which I attribute to a degree of die off.

It's suprising that the bacteria killing by ox bile, if that's what's happening inside of me right now, is being done silently.

 

[TheBeard]

That makes you, me, and beard helped by amoxicillin in very similar ways. It also restored my appetite the way Ox Bile does. (In my case it was more specifically Augmentin: Amoxicillin / Clauvlanic acid.) Interestingly, neither Beard nor I were helped by Rifaximin, the drug most commonly used to treat SIBO. So who knows what the exact mechanism of action is. But I also suspect the problem is rooted in the small intestine (the seat of pitta / fire in Ayurveda). This is where my Crohn's disease is situated.

If you trial some Ox Bile and benefit, that would make three people who were helped by both Amoxicillin and Ox Bile, and would be worth noting here, so if you try some please report back. It might indicate we all deal with a similar imbalance.

This is a little off-topic, and I post this for the posterity of google searchers, but Augmentin cured my ejaculatory anhedonia back in 2017. I made a series of posts here Been cured 6 months. Here's how I did it. if anyone is curious about that fun-filled time in my life.

Back to Ox Bile, I posted earlier how I've seen it help (even cure) psoriasis:

Is psoriasis a bowel disease? Successful treatment with bile acids and bioflavonoids suggests it is - PubMed
[Role of bile acids and endotoxins in the pathogenesis and therapy of psoriasis] - PubMed

Also, potentially of interest to some here is animal bile's role in traditional medicine:

Substitutes for Bear Bile for the Treatment of Liver Diseases: Research Progress and Future Perspective
Therapeutic uses of animal biles in traditional Chinese medicine: An ethnopharmacological, biophysical chemical and medicinal review

I've utilized various forms of bile supplements for about 8 years. My experience with myself and suggesting it to others over these years are that people with some excess pitta (Heat / Fire) in their constitutions seem to benefit from it the most.

Love the fact that you keep track of things and compute them, it's of great help.

I remember getting heightened feelings and emotions for a while after starting antibiotics, and I think it also applied to the sex department.

I'm afraid to give pharmaceutical antibiotics another shot, I always think next time I try them is going to be when I get an untamable c diff infection that will put me in a much worse place than I am now.
Not going to lie it's tempting: I've never felt so alive, strong in the gym, and confident than when on azithromycin and augmentin.
If only I had the guaranty that experiencing god mode again wouldn't burn my wings.

 

[TheBeard]

More interesting bile stuff:

• Rats injected with LPS downregulates the bile pump proteins in the liver and causes less bile to be excreted: https://www.researchgate.net/public...tion_of_bile_acids_and_organic_anions_in_rats
• Bile salts seem to have the capacity to "detoxify" LPS which makes it less harmful to the liver: Cellular and subcellular distribution of injected lipopolysaccharide in rat liver and its inactivation by bile salts - ScienceDirect

Maybe it's a good idea to occasionally "change the oil", so to speak, by taking high dose ox bile and/or TUDCA to replace bad bile acids such as DCA. 95% is recirculated so maybe you could swap out most of it with exogenous bile.

• Also, biliary flow can be promoted by combining ox bile with taurine: Sci-Hub | Combined Effect of Taurine and Ox Bile on Biliary Flow. Taurine 2, 93–97 | 10.1007/978-1-4899-0182-8_11
• Also it's fascinating how TUDCA prevents retinal degradation in mice and act cytoprotective: Bile acids in treatment of ocular disease

Beautiful.

I think that's what TUDCA essentially is: bile + taurine

 

[Korven]

That makes you, me, and beard helped by amoxicillin in very similar ways. It also restored my appetite the way Ox Bile does. (In my case it was more specifically Augmentin: Amoxicillin / Clauvlanic acid.) Interestingly, neither Beard nor I were helped by Rifaximin, the drug most commonly used to treat SIBO. So who knows what the exact mechanism of action is. But I also suspect the problem is rooted in the small intestine (the seat of pitta / fire in Ayurveda). This is where my Crohn's disease is situated.

If you trial some Ox Bile and benefit, that would make three people who were helped by both Amoxicillin and Ox Bile, and would be worth noting here, so if you try some please report back. It might indicate we all deal with a similar imbalance.

This is a little off-topic, and I post this for the posterity of google searchers, but Augmentin cured my ejaculatory anhedonia back in 2017. I made a series of posts here Been cured 6 months. Here's how I did it. if anyone is curious about that fun-filled time in my life.

Back to Ox Bile, I posted earlier how I've seen it help (even cure) psoriasis:

Is psoriasis a bowel disease? Successful treatment with bile acids and bioflavonoids suggests it is - PubMed
[Role of bile acids and endotoxins in the pathogenesis and therapy of psoriasis] - PubMed

Also, potentially of interest to some here is animal bile's role in traditional medicine:

Substitutes for Bear Bile for the Treatment of Liver Diseases: Research Progress and Future Perspective
Therapeutic uses of animal biles in traditional Chinese medicine: An ethnopharmacological, biophysical chemical and medicinal review

I've utilized various forms of bile supplements for about 8 years. My experience with myself and suggesting it to others over these years are that people with some excess pitta (Heat / Fire) in their constitutions seem to benefit from it the most.

Woah great finds.... one of the authors of that paper ([Role of bile acids and endotoxins in the pathogenesis and therapy of psoriasis] - PubMed) has done several other studies on the bile acid - endotoxin - psoriasis/skin issues connection and this just connected so many dots for me:

"If the common bile ducts of rats were chronically cannulated (bile deprived animals) perorally administered endotoxin was absorbed from the intestinal canal into blood circulation and provoked endotoxin shock. The translocation of endotoxins and consequent shock can be prevented by sodium deoxycholate or natural biles. The bile acids can split the endotoxin macromolecule (atoxic fragments). A similar destructive detergent action might will be a significant factor against potential infectious agents with lipoprotein outer structure (e.g. so-called "big" viruses). This defense mechanism of macrooganisms based on the detergent activity of bile acids is called as physico-chemical defense system. On the basis of this knowledge the bile acids might be used in the prevention and therapy of some clinical processes (e.g. hepatorenal syndrome; psoriasis). " from [Bile acids and endotoxins: physico-chemical defense of the body] - PubMed

I'm starting to think that poor bile output could potentially be at the root of many of my health problems. It's just been one of those things in the periphery that I haven't been bothered looking into that much. Just taking 5 grams of taurine split over the day has been helping, can't wait to see the results of more powerful agents.

Other possible angles to look at for increasing biliary flow could be 1. cholecystokinin (hormone triggered by fat and protein in duodenum) and also 2. increasing parasympathetic activity and vagal tone (which I believe allithiamine could be a gamechanger for - see Dr Lonsdale's work). I also know some here have gotten great results from coffee enemas for releasing gallstones.

 

[not_James_Bond]

Yeah, I have started taking Taurine and digestive enzymes (containing ox bile) and my digestion is terrific at the moment. I will continue and update

 

[LLight]

"One of the synthetic analogues of antidiuretic hormone-desmopressin is used in patients with central diabetes insipidus and in those with coagulation disorders. However, its effects on bile secretion are not fully defined. We investigated the effect of desmopressin on bile formation and determined the role of V1a vasopressin receptors in the action of desmopressin on choleresis. Rats were injected intraportally with a bolus of desmopressin; the changes of bile flow, the content of free and conjugated cholates were compared with control animal group. Selective antagonist of V1a receptors was injected 10 minutes before desmopressin treatment and the findings were compared with the results after desmopressin injection alone. Desmopressin increased bile flow, secretion of total cholates like amino acids conjugated, while diminished free bile acids content. Secreted bile volume and conjugated bile acids content were reduced in V1a receptors antagonist+desmopressin-treated rats. In contrast, free bile acids content was more than the results in desmopressin-treated rats. Desmopressin at concentrations nearly equal to physiological concentrations of natural hormone in blood shows its choleretic effect. Antagonist of V1a vasopressin receptors modulates desmopressin action. This certifies the role of these receptors in the action of desmopressin on different processes of bile formation."

 

[not_James_Bond]

@yerrag Have you tried ox bile, Taurine or Tudca for endotoxin issues