Potato = Good

[tca300]

@Westside PUFAs I said blood sugar rise, not insulin. Starches give me heart problems but fruit and protein don't. I don't understand why I have to like starch? Why is it so important to you that I love starch? You obviously didn't read what I said. For ME PERSONALLY I don't handle starch well, I feel better without it. You always avoid the fact that RAY HIMSELF DOESNT EAT STARCH. If you guys handle starch fine, and love it, then good on you. I presented my story because I don't want everybody to think starch is necessary for good health. If you disagree with Ray then WHY ARE YOU POSTING On the RAYPEAT forum???? Why not go to a starch forum???? Why can't you just stick with the subjects of his you agree with and leave people alone who don't like starch and it's effects? Your a bully, and have accused me of photo shopping an email between ray and I because you can't possibly comprehend that he doesn't agree with your ideas. Haha, you quote matt stone all you want.. what are his credentials? Is he a scientist? Does he have any degrees? Or is he a bully just like you?

 

[tyw]

Sidenote: as much as blood glucose is mentioned many times, we must keep in mind that there are 4 to 6 grams of glucose in the blood at any one time -- Four grams of glucose

And also note that the absorption of pure glucose is probably going to be no more than 1 gram per minute, and if we combine carbohydrate sources absorption is still probably going to be no more than 1.75 grams per minute. (The literature to look up here are the athletes who want maximal rates of carbohydrate absorption)

This is to say that blood glucose dys-regulation can occur at very low doses of carbohydrate intake (even ketogenic levels). This is what we see basically, with some diabetics complaining of blood sugar in the high 300's mg/dL after eating even just 20g of carbs. Which if you think about it, 300 mg/dL multiplied by 5 litres of blood => 15 grams of circulating glucose, which is only 10 grams above a healthy baseline level (and we know these diabetics don't start from a healthy baseline at all).

Any blood glucose problems is most likely a problem of regulation. Excess glucose is still problematic if existing dys-regulation persists, and I am one to recommend avoiding a glucose intake that creates uncontrolled glucose levels.

Then there is a question regarding how much harm excess blood glucose actually does .... which is a much broader topic that I have not fully looked into on a from-first-principles basis.

Then there is the question of: "Can you cure glucose blood dys-regulation by restricting carbohydrate?". I can see plausible mechanics in the presence of ketones, but don't view this as a fundamental fix.

....

 

[m_arch]

According to this forum that isn't correct. Or at least that's the impression I've got. Milk definitely is seen as more optimal than potatoes. Not that I'm bashing milk, I drink about 1.5 skimmed litres per day.

Well, for milk

Cons;
Lots of people are intolerant - unlike potatoes
It's a lot of liquid which can lower metabolic rate - unlike potatoes

Pros;
Better phosphate calcium ratio than potatoes
No starch (though this is debated to death, and it seems waxy potatoes should be fine on most people's digestion)

For my body potatoes definitely win

 

[m_arch]

Somewhere ray says 4-6 pounds of potatoes is adequate protein - anyone know if this would refer to uncooked or cooked? Same question for rice. 1 cup of uncooked is like 5 cups cooked. I assume rice means cooked

 

[tyw]

Somewhere ray says 4-6 pounds of potatoes is adequate protein - anyone know if this would refer to uncooked or cooked? Same question for rice. 1 cup of uncooked is like 5 cups cooked. I assume rice means cooked

If you bake or fry a potato, it will probably lose anywhere from 10-25% of its water mass. If you boil it, it will either have the same amount of water, or maybe 5% more. Raw mass and cooked mass should be treated as the same thing for potatoes. The same is true of any other tuber.

I wouldn't treat potatoes as a source of protein though that said, 1kg / 2.2lbs of potatoes would have 20g of protein.

Discussions on Rice raw must refer to the raw, dry mass, since cooking methods will yield wildly varying cooked masses. Volume isn't a good indicator either, since different rices will have different densities.

Rice is definitely not a good protein source.

Personally, I hesitate to call any non-animal derived food a "good protein source"

......

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Somewhere ray says 4-6 pounds of potatoes is adequate protein - anyone know if this would refer to uncooked or cooked? Same question for rice. 1 cup of uncooked is like 5 cups cooked. I assume rice means cooked

When he talks about potato protein he's talking about amino acid precursors which are not measured in nutrition databases.

"Potatoes are the only vegetable protein which is of quality equal to egg yolk. It's actually a little higher in quality because it contains precursors to the essential amino acids; it has more protein in effect than it actually has in substance. And people misjudge potatoes because they are given as 2 to 4%, because wet potatoes are measured, where beans are measured in the dry state and have 40% protein, but...you have to divide the bean protein by 10 to make it equivalent to potatoes."

The Thyroid, 1996, Gary Null radio show

"Kasra: "Dr. Peat, In one of your articles, you mention that fruits contain "carbon
skeleton" equivalents of the essential amino acids. Does this mean that the actual protein content of a fruit could be substantially greater than what a nutrition database says?"

Peat: "Yes, the way a potato's effective protein content is much higher than the chemical protein content."

Kasra: "Could this mitigate the problem of protein deficiency on an all-fruit diet?"

Peat: "Yes, but since there isn't much known about their ketoacid content, it would be best to have a wide variety of fruits. A couple of times in the last ten years I've started a project to test some fruits, but because of the new laws since 2001, I haven't able to buy the necessary reagents. It would have to be done in some government approved institution."

 

[ecstatichamster]

Are there any studies on Keto acids. I couldn't find any.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

The ketoacids react with ammonia in the blood and turn into protein. In that sense I think potatoes may have too much protein.

They aren't on a low protein diet. Potatoes are full of keto acids. I asked Ray about just getting my protein exclusively from potatoes on November 30th 2015

Me: "I'm going to be moving to an area that doesn't have any good animal proteins, do you think replacing animal protein with potatoes would work because of their keto acid content? Thank you very much!"

Ray: "Yes, people in New Guinea who eat nothing but potatoes for 51 weeks of the year (and pork the other week) have been studied and found to be healthy with no signs of protein deficiency."

 

[tyw]

The ketoacids react with ammonia in the blood and turn into protein. In that sense I think potatoes may have too much protein.

I highly doubt this mechanism , and have never found studies to show that ammonia would readily combine with ketoacids to form any sort of proteins in vivo.

(a) Ketoacids have no Nitrogen at all

If we are talking about net nitrogen balance, these would not intrinsically contribute to maintenance of net nitrogen pool.

All that is left is the combination mechanism with ammonia, and if that happens, we are referring to prevention of nitrogen loss, and not any net gain. Actually eating protein is a net dietary gain in nitrogen, which will hopefully retain nitrogen balance at a positive or neutral level (which is likely indicative of retention of skeletal muscle)

(b) Why would the body prefer the ammonia + ketoacid reaction over the ammonia -> urea conversion?

Ammonia isn't exactly a nice compound to have around in the body. Urea can be useful, and Peat has talked about this:
- KMUD: 2-20-15 Uses of Urea
- KMUD: 6-19-15 Continuing Research on Urea

And we're talking a decently negative -20.3 kcal/mol delta Gibbs free energy for the first reaction in the Urea cycle -- ie: this will proceed spontaneously if reactants are present.

- first reaction is (NH3 + HCO3- + 2ATP): Urea cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- Calculations: MetaCyc EC 6.3.5.5

Ammonia is most commonly formed during amino acid breakdown. This is usually in the liver. This ammonia is then proximal to liver mitochondria, and if there is carbon dioxide and ATP around (which should be assumed, since you next to the mitochondria that actually produces these compounds), then you have rapid degradation of ammonia, and hopefully the start of 5 step process to the production of the Urea.

I do not see how the ketoacid + ammonia reaction is preferred in the desired state of metabolic health

----

Now, where keto acids are useful are when protein breakdown is a problem. eg: prolonged calorie restriction -- Adaptive responses to very low protein diets: The first comparison of ketoacids to essential amino acids

Under those scenarios, yes, it seems like ketoacids help preserve nitrogen, and this is likely an adaptive mechanism to avoid excessive nitrogen loss.

The same protein breakdown situation can also happen under intense exercise scenarios. Look up ketoacid supplementation in athletes for the positive training adaptations that have been observed.

....

 

[Westside PUFAs]

I was just going off of what Peat said. He did say that they react with ammonia on one of the podcasts. Haidut mentioned it too. Peat said that when he juiced potatoes in his lab they tested the juice on some special kind of machine, I forget what it's called. And as he said in that email with Kasra, after 911 happend he was unable to buy the necessary reagents to do the proper testing. That's just testing the ketoacids. To then do a controlled metabolic ward study on their reaction in humans is a whole different matter. Further research is needed but unlikely to be done anytime soon. I think protein recycling, however, is another factor to consider. And I think it may explain people such as Okinawans, New Gunieans, and many vegans who eat a high root vegetable, mushroom, and fruit diet. Throw in legumes and you have what I consider too much protein.

 

[tyw]

@Westside PUFAs yes, and I will agree with the potential "protein recycling" mechanic attributed to ketoacids.

Is it possible to get significant amounts of these through the diet? Maybe .....

Are these keto acids a significant factor in ensuring the health of these populations? Maybe .... the Okinawans at least were calorie restricted, and did not consume much animal protein -- ie: protein recycling probably is more significant a factor.

Is this a major factor to the longevity of these populations? Maybe .... but I personally think that it's more got to do with lifestyle factors and luck of the mitochondrial draw (Okinawans and their less-leaky mitochondria)

Or maybe it's dem purple sweet potatoes
- http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf405032f
- Purple sweet potato color repairs d-galactose-induced spatial learning and memory impairment by regulating the expression of synaptic proteins

Anyway, I wouldn't attribute keto acids to leading to "too much protein" though, since like any regulatory cycle, it's enzymatically limited, and likely under heavy control by the body. The body will find a way to excrete excess protein either way, and that may mean down-regulating the enzymes used for protein retention.

....

 

[Westside PUFAs]

I think so long as one doesn't have kwashiorkor, and their liver labs show good liver enzymes and other liver markers then the obsession with protein that people have is one of the culprits of modern disease. I think minimizing the sulfuric amino acids does more for reducing harm then eating them everyday to try to maintain an "energy" standpoint.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Humans are unable to break down uric acid to allantoin. This inability to break down uric acid leads to an increased possibility of it accumulating in the body when certain protein products are eaten. Uric acid is an intermediary product of metabolism that is associated with various pathological states, including gout. There is a balance of using uric acid as an antioxidant and having too much.

 

[tyw]

Personal Observations (do not treat this like my usual mechanical analysis)

I do not understand what an "optimal" protein intake is anymore So I generally do not comment on that topic.

On one hand, I can cite all the literature in the exercise science literature showing better and better nitrogen balance up to around 2g / lbs bodyweight of protein under exercise conditions. eg: for the 70kg TYW, that's 70 * 2.2 * 2 = 300 grams a day .... even using the oft-cited 1g / lbs recommendation in sports circles, we're talking about 155g of protein a day.

These people are chasing pure performance gains, and the case can be made for better athletic performance and recovery with those high doses.

Striving for "Athletic performance" is of course, many a time the opposite of achieving good health.

On the other extreme, there are populations which have historically thrived on something more like 25-60g of protein a day ....
- http://okicent.org/docs/anyas_cr_diet_2007_1114_434s.pdf
- Epidemiological studies in a total highland population, Tukisenta, New Guinea: Cardiovascular disease and relevant clinical, electrocardiographic, radiological and biochemical findings

That upper bound is incidentally where I roughly ended up about 2 years ago (after experimentation for 6 years prior), and I have no clue why I do better on this lowered protein intake ....

NOTE: to be more accurate, where I ended up was basically having some significant degree of animal protein (300-400g) maybe every 4-5 days. The rest of the days were either fat (back when I did my 1-year keto experiment) or carbs (nowadays), with maybe like 2-3 eggs every now and then (which is only 15-20g protein). So we're talking something like a 30-50g baseline with spikes up to 100g every few days.​

And finally, as an aside, my current environment (sub-tropical, 17deg south), is pretty similar to those 2 populations cited above. Climatic seasonal conditions likely contribute to protein requirements. (especially if you subscribe to Peat's idea of "less light in winter" => "more stress" => "potentially higher protein requirement")

....

 

[Mufasa]

If you can't handle fruit for some reason, or if the fruit available or not good quality (not organic, not ripe etc.), I think potatoes may be a very good, or optimal food in that context.

I would not been where I am now, without potatoes, that I'm sure. It was one of the only ways to increase calories, without getting bad effects. Also it is easy to increase salt, because salt combines very well with potatoes.

However, after a while things began to improved. My digestion improved, and my teeth became less sensitive. I think that was one of the reason I reacted bad to fruit. I just got horrible tooth pain after eating fruit, so that in itself was probably some kind of stress reaction.

Now, I love fruit. Especially organic orange juice. One advantage of fruit is that it digest very fast. So if I would have a potato meal, it would take me 30-45 min to finish it. And up to an hour after that, I would have less focus because I think my digestive tract was busy digesting it.

With fruit, I drink 750 ml orange juice in 10 min. And 10 min after that, I'm ready to go and do stuff. Only thing I hate about orange juice is that it is so freaking expensive. There is only one brand of orange juice I react well to, and that brand happens to be the most expensive (750 ml for 2.80 euro). I drink 3L of it, so that is 11 euro a day. Potatoes costed my like 2 euros a day.

 

[Peatish Ninja]

Why do some seemingly require starch for health, whereas for others it is a step towards degeneration?

I would say that it has a strong relationship with their intake of synthetic supplements (especially the hormone types).

 

[Mufasa]

I would say that it has a strong relationship with their intake of synthetic supplements (especially the hormone types).

Why do you believe that?

 

[meatbag]

"The small farmers live on potatoes and milk. It is considered that he is a very fortunate man if he has milk for his family. He sells his butter and never uses oatmeal in his house."

 

[lindsay]

Well you can see the difference between you and damngoodcoffee. As I'm sure you're being honest about your improvements, whats the difference? Why do different people have such opposite reactions? I don't think I've come across any Peaty recommendations that results in so opposite reactions. But that's why I brought the topic up, because I'd like to have some discussion around this.

Why do some seemingly require starch for health, whereas for others it is a step towards degeneration?

Because we are all different. I tried to go the high starch (with a little low fat dairy) route two years ago (eating organic potatoes & white rice) and I ended up with endotoxemia & appendicitis. My appendix was removed & I just finished paying off my insurance deductible. I was craving all these starchy carbs at the time and felt great until about 3 weeks in. Now I eat them in sparingly. What works for some won't necessarily work for others.

 

[wiggles92]

Because we are all different. I tried to go the high starch (with a little low fat dairy) route two years ago (eating organic potatoes & white rice) and I ended up with endotoxemia & appendicitis. My appendix was removed & I just finished paying off my insurance deductible. I was craving all these starchy carbs at the time and felt great until about 3 weeks in. Now I eat them in sparingly. What works for some won't necessarily work for others.

Problem is 'we are all different' doesn't tell us anything. Sorry if that comes across as insulting, I just write quite bluntly. Accuracy is often quite blunt haha. We know why some people respond poorly to high fat, or dairy, or caffeine, or protein, or whatever else. I don't think this community, or Ray Peat himself, has put together a definitive mechanism for the different reactions (sugar v 'safe' starch), and that's what I'm hoping will come out of this thread. Or we realise there are puzzle pieces missing, and look to investigate further. The whole appeal of Peat is an accurate understanding of the interface of diet and human biology. And if one was selective they can find Peat saying certain starches are very good, nigh on essentials in the dietary toolkit.