Progest E Dose Suggestions?

[Rayser]

The progesterone receptor (if you believe in such a thing), is a protein. To use progesterone you need adequate protein. Ray Peat mentions he "doesn't feel quite right" if he gets less than 100g a day. I need more. If you don't get enough protein (and progesterone will raise the demand) your body will use up the protein most easily available: that's the one in your skin.
Usually you notice it first below your eyes.
If you make sure to eat enough potatoes, the effect will disappear again.

Is it "make sure to eat enough potatoes" or protein? Or both?

RP: "The problem of refeeding starving people has many features in common with the problem of correcting the liver malfunction and hormone imbalances which follow prolonged malnutrition of a milder sort. The use of the highest quality protein (egg yolk or potato juice, or at least milk or meat) is important, but the supplementation of thyroid containing T 3 is often necessary."
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/eclampsia.shtml

RP: "Balanced proteins, such as cheese, potatoes, eggs, and beef- or lamb-broth (for the gelatin and mineral content in particular) will prevent the tryptophan excess that suppresses the thyroid and is potentially a nerve toxin."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ms.shtml

RP: "Estrogenic influences can be significantly reduced by avoiding foods such as soy products and unsaturated fats, by eating enough protein to optimize the liver’s elimination of estrogen, and by using things such as bulk-forming foods (raw carrots, potatoes, and milk, for example) that stimulate bowel action and prevent reabsorption of estrogens from the intestine. Avoiding hypothyroidism is essential for preventing chronic retention or formation of too much estrogen."

RP: "Potatoes, because of the high quality of their protein, are probably relatively free of toxic signal-substances."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/alzheimers2.shtml

Most women who told me that progest-e didn't work for them or made their symptoms worse, thought of it as they would of a drug: Everything in their lives stays the same but they use this drug and things magically get better.
Of course that will not work. It's not a drug. If you don't eat enough high quality food, especially protein, progesterone cannot work. If you eat PUFA and lots of starch, goitrogens, not enough salt and sugar, you don't get enough vitamin E and A and B vitamins, enough calcium and magnesium -- you will not only suppress your thyroid gland but also shift your hormone balance toward the stress hormones like estrogen, cortisol, prolactin, melatonin, histamines ...

Progesterone is one piece of a puzzle, not a dea ex machina.
If you start to learn how your organism works and understand the role of progesterone within the organism it will become clearer that as much as possible about our lives and our environment has to be optimized in order to be healthy.
Progesterone is only a step on the way and usually not the first step.
I would always start with aspirin, salt, sugar and eliminating PUFA. And reading every article by Ray Peat.

 

[charlie]

Excellent post, Rayser. Thank you.

 

[4peatssake]

Excellent post, Rayser. Thank you.

I totally agree. Thank you Rayser for this terrific wisdom!

 

[HDD]

Yes, thank you Rayser. :)

 

[Swandattur]

I guess it's best to tack a question about progesterone on an already started thread. I got some Progest E to try. I have been eating Peat the best I can. Every time I try to eat gelatin or very much regular dairy, I get histamine problems. So, mostly I avoid those. I had an okay effect after taking one drop Progest E. However, the next day I tried three drops and things didn't go so well. It was a stressful frustrating day. Maybe I didn't start out with enough protein. I think I only ate protein in the afternoon. I had 8 ounces buffalo mozzerella and some sushi. I normally avoid all starches and maybe I should have this time. I was out shopping trying to find something (that I never found,) so I needed something to eat. Maybe I should have stuck with the cheese which was very good ( erg, and expensive) and gotten some fruit to eat. I also had some ginger ale (made with sugar). I felt draggy and at the same time stressed the whole day. That night after either going to sleep briefly or almost sleeping, I started feeling really depressed, and fearful in a way. I tried various things, none of which seemed to do anything. I did notice I felt better with the light on. Finally I tried applying Vick's Vapor Rub on my stomach and peppermint oil on my forehead. There was method in my madness! I have been reading for awhile that depression may stem from inflammation in the gut. Vicks is an anti- inflammatory (favored by the guy at coolinginflammation.com.) After that, I felt better, and was able to go to sleep. So, anyway, after reading posts here, I see my problem may have been low protein. Probably I need to work on getting my diet on even keel before any more Progest E experimentation. I would be afraid to try it after this, except maybe one drop topically or something. I forgot to add I am 59 years old, so I surely must need progesterone. If anybody has any other thoughts on this, I would be interested to hear them.

 

[Beebop]

Do you usually have no protein for breakfast? If you had a stressful day shopping and didn't eat enough, then that would explain your feeling crappy.

But also, I thought with Progest-E you have to start with high doses:

It is recommended that nearly everyone should begin with the high dose directions for 10 days to avoid complications (as low thyroid, high estrogen situations require a high initial dose to avoid progesterone reverting to estrogen). For example, to relieve severe symptoms (hot flashes, menstrual pain, cramping, PMS, ovarian cysts, fibrocystic breast disease, high estrogen, etc.) take one dose (3 drops) five times daily for 10 days, then decrease to about 3 doses daily for 1-2 two weeks (can be longer as needed). Eventually, 1-2 doses for another few weeks or months
as needed.

from Progest-E instructions pdf

Seems like a lot of people are two tentative with their first doses, based on other threads where people have problems after a one or two drops etc. Although I can understand the tentativeness as it is scary taking new things. I haven't tried Progest-E yet, but when I do, I am going to follow these instructions and make sure I eat enough.

 

[Swandattur]

Well, I guess that's where I went wrong. I had never run across this, or else didn't remember. Thanks for posting this. It would really be nice to have one place to go to review all relevant info on these supplements. It is scary trying any new supplement, especially a hormone. I don't know if I would have the nerve to take so much, even though I can see the sense in it.

Very much dairy at all gives me histamine problems and so does gelatin. So, that pretty much leaves meat for protein and eggs, of course. I think maybe the egg white may be some problem for me. Anyway, I sometimes don't end up eating protein until later in the day, which probably isn't good. I think egg yolks do fine for me. So, maybe I can try that at breakfast. I guess if I got one of those juicers that separate out the potato protein, I could do that. I did eat some baby kale egg drop soup this morning. It was very good. I have found that buffalo mozzarella from Italy has no histamine or allergy consequences. Too bad it's so expensive. Thank you for the information, Beebop.

 

[Beebop]

Glad it was helpful. I find that I feel bad if I don't have a lot of protein for breakfast. Meat, eggs and cheese usually.

Good luck with the Progest-E!

 

[Jenn]

8 oz of cheese in one sitting is a HUGE amount. I,personally would not be able to digest that very fast, which would lead to some serious adrenal response and keep me up all night.

 

[Swandattur]

Jenn, The cheese was just so good, and I mostly can't eat it. I did leave some that I ate maybe an hour or so later, but I see what you mean about the protein being too much at a time. it might be that that is something that has been causing me problems. Maybe I will suggest to my friend who has tried keeping dairy goats that she keep dairy buffalo instead. I guess they are water buffalo like they have in Africa. She should be able to handle buffalo.
The other thing I noticed during this reaction was that I had what seemed like new chigger bites. Later, I realized it had to be the old nearly gone ones becoming inflamed and itchy again. Weird! I feel much better now, and am having a good time visiting with my son. We plan to go to see a spring in the Gainesville Florida area we haven't seen before. Sometimes I think I'm bipolar. Not really, but sorta. I managed to find a bathing suit that covers up the worst and directs attention away from the bad to the better. In other words, it does magic. So, I won't be ashamed to be caught dead or even alive in it. If I'm going to a spring, I want to be able to get in the water, and be comfortable in public.

 

[Swandattur]

I haven't tried any Progest E after this, but I seem to have had a shift for the better in my health. I just feel overall better, and stronger. Did it kick start something? Or maybe it's the extra sunshine I've been getting and getting out of my routine, and that buffalo mozzarella. :P

 

[HDD]

Glad to hear that, Swandattur! Can't beat that FL sunshine to make you feel better!

 

[Swandattur]

Yep! Sunshine's good! :)

 

[Rayser]

Hi everyone,
I too am new to the forum and wasn't sure if I should start a new thread or not. I don't want to take over someone elses issue and I currently can't answer anyones questions as I have my own!!
My question is also about Progest E- have just started and am taking 3 drops/5 times a day. My estrogen is really high. (I believe it is)The issue is that progesterone makes me feel depressed! It always has done, previously I have used cream and troches.
Does this mean that I shouldn't take it? Or should I increase the dose?
I have read that it can make you feel worse before better, can anyone explain why? I have also seen the name of an author referred to here (Katherine someone, Watson?)that writes about it. Can someone point me in the right direction?
Sorry, I apologise if I've done the wrong thing, new to forums, forum etiquette etc.
Thanks in advance to anyone who answers

Most creams have "natural estrogens" and other additives which counteract progesterone and/or thyroid function. Even under the best circumstances the body will not absorb a lot through the skin and then most creams only contain 2 or 5 or 10% progesterone. Sometimes it's not even really natural progesterone but pure yam which is - like most plants - estrogenic.

Many women get the best results when they start on a high dosage of progest-e to disrupt the estrogen dominance. But I think you will have to increase thyroid function and protein intake as well and use niacinamid and aspirin to keep PUFA out of your blood stream.

Progesterone is a very potent natural anti-depressant. Feeling depressed is typical for high estrogen and serotonin.
I recommend you read Ray Peat's articles on progesterone. They are listed on his homepage and at several places on this forum.

 

[Rayser]

I haven't tried any Progest E after this, but I seem to have had a shift for the better in my health. I just feel overall better, and stronger. Did it kick start something? Or maybe it's the extra sunshine I've been getting and getting out of my routine, and that buffalo mozzarella. :P

Progesterone promotes thyroid function and vice versa.

 

[Rayser]

Every time I try to eat gelatin or very much regular dairy, I get histamine problems.

*** Gelatine's amino acid composition: glycine 21%, proline 12%, hydroxyproline 12%, glutamic acid 10%, alanine 9%, arginine 8%, aspartic acid 6%, lysine 4%, serine 4%, leucine 3%, valine 2%, phenylalanine 2%, threonine 2%, isoleucine 1%, hydroxylysine 1%, methionine and histidine <1% and tyrosine <0.5%.
It is very unlikely that gelatine raises histamine. It is possible (if your stomach is sensitive to it) that you react negatively to gelatine. If that's the case I would try potato pudding and carrot salad for one or two weeks to normalize your stomach mucous.
I recommend you read Ray Peat's articles on milk.

I think I only ate protein in the afternoon. I had 8 ounces buffalo mozzerella and some sushi.

*** Sushi is a problem. First of all it's fish -- which contains lots of PUFA. Then it's raw fish which means it contains lots of contaminants and impurities. Most of the fish used for sushi contain lots of heavy metals. Plus you get a good dose of iodine which can be a problem if your thyroid function is not optimal. Many people have problems with mozzarella. I would use other, riper kinds of cheese instead. The older the cheese, the less lactose it contains.

That night after either going to sleep briefly or almost sleeping, I started feeling really depressed, and fearful in a way.

*** That sound like very low blood sugar. Try to eat some honey when you feel like this. Salt might help, too.

I did notice I felt better with the light on.

*** Some people sleep with infrared lights shining on their feet. It helps keep stress hormones low during the night.

Finally I tried applying Vick's Vapor Rub on my stomach and peppermint oil on my forehead.

There was method in my madness! I have been reading for awhile that depression may stem from inflammation in the gut. Vicks is an anti- inflammatory (favored by the guy at coolinginflammation.com.)

*** Yes, I am sure it's anti-inflammatory. So are PUFA and cortisol if you count lowering symptoms. I would not recommend using PUFA on your skin, especially not essential oils which irritate the mucous.

 

[Swandattur]

Rayser, thanks very much for all the information. I'm sure the other people having difficulties with progesterone appreciate it, too. To start from the bottom and go up, I have questions. First, on the Vicks, it has menthol, camphor, and eucalyptus oil in a petroleum base, I think. The menthol and camphor don't say oil. From what I understand the petroleum base is inert. I was hoping that was true. I'm not sure what is supposed to be the anti inflammatory part, the oil or something else. I see that the peppermint oil is probably a PUFA, but since I wasn't going out in the sun, I thought it was alright. Maybe it has longer lasting ill effects, though. Anyway, when you feel as bad as I was feeling, you will do about anything to feel better. Anyway, I'm confused about what actually is the anti-inflammatory part.

I have an incandescent heat lamp, but it's too hot to use in summer, unless I had a really good air conditioner. I'm not sure I know which is infrared. Guess I'll have to look it up, but that sounds good.
About the iodine in sushi effect on the thyroid, I do have problems with eating liver, which Is supposed to be due to poor thyroid, I think.

I think I have read somewhere that gelatin has histamine in it, or maybe I just assumed that it did, since I get stuffy nose and other allergy symptoms every time I eat much of it at all. I read somewhere that a protein in gelatin is much like casein in A1 milk, which might be why I react to both. Aged cheese really sets me off, I presume from the high histamine content. Of course, aged cheese would have more concentrated casein in it. I have been eating the carrot salad, although for the last two days, I've been taking cascara sagrada. I avoid starch except on occasion, because it raises my blood sugar and makes me hungry. That may be one reason the sushi bothered me; because of the rice in it. Maybe I should get one of those juicers to separate the protein from the starch in the potatoes.
I don't get any noticeable digestive problem from lactose. I have wondered, though, if maybe my digestive problems often don't register as intestinal discomfort, but more often as mood disturbance.
If the problem I have with Progest E is due to low thyroid, would you think it advisable to try one of the thyroid supplements that RP recommends? Or would it be better to try improving diet and such for a while? I no longer seem to get cold at night like I did for a while. Of course, it is summer, but still, I really think I've improved that way.

Anyway, thank you for responding. You have given me a lot to think about.

 

[Mittir]

I think I have read somewhere that gelatin has histamine in it, or maybe I just assumed that it did, since I get stuffy nose and other allergy symptoms every time I eat much of it at all. I read somewhere that a protein in gelatin is much like casein in A1 milk, which might be why I react to both. Aged cheese really sets me off, I presume from the high histamine content.

Gelatin has small amount of histidine compared to other protein source. But there is speculation that slow cooking degrades histidine to histamine and it also creates other allergenic amines. Milk or fresh cheese does not have histamine problem but old cheese does.Many fermented foods are high in histamine. Fish, especially shell fish , is known to degrade histidine very rapidly, within hours of it's death. Vitamin B6 and calcium helps with lowering histamine problem. Ray Peat does not believe in A1 and A2 controversy. I think in commercial gelatin making process it can create lots of histamine. But gelatin can cause digestive problem without histamine issue, because if it escape digestion it feeds bacteria. I think with improved health gelatin is well tolerated.
This article have good into histamine intolerance.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/ ... l.pdf+html

 

[Swandattur]

Mittir, Thanks very much for the histamine information. Long cooked meat always seems to give me allergy like symptoms. It's odd, but frozen seafood that tastes fresh doesn't seem to bother me. Maybe they do a good job of getting it frozen quickly most of the time. I don't think I used to have any problem with gelatin. Maybe my difficulty with gelatin is, as you mention, a digestive issue. Recently I found a study that showed intestinal inflammation can cause inflammation in other parts of the body, at least in the study animals. It seems possible I have always had some problem with aged cheese histamines. Of course, I probably haven't had optimal metabolism since I was a kid.
On the A1 versus A2 issue, I was thinking maybe A1 is a bit harder to digest, or maybe you could be allergic or sensitive to one and not the other.
I will check out that link. Thanks again!

 

[katiekeen]

Thanks Rayser for replying to my earlier post, I haven't checked back here for awhile.
I am doing better on the Progest e now-started Cynoplus and feeling better on that so taking high doses of Progest e. No depression with it at all. Also increased my sugar intake which helps enormously