Ray Peat Diet Gave Me A Fatty Liver?

[visionofstrength]

Since coming to Peat I've always been under the impression we should have coffee with lots of sugar, not black. I've never seen any RP person recommend black coffee at all.

The rare time I have black coffee without dairy and sugar in it, is when I am eating a large portion of something sweet along with it. This is rare. Sometimes I just like black coffee alongside a piece of cake or something, but that's just me.

Adding: I wouldn't think of 600 mg. caffeine in one dose anyway, I was assuming it's PER DAY, if I even go this route.

Thanks, I worry that visitors who think they are reading a site with Peat's name will see recommendations from members which may be quite unsafe, as far as Peat is concerned.

Aside: Consider that the russian drug with 100 mg of caffeine will be a triple black espresso, so maybe lots of your cake to go with it!

 

[Peata]

Since coming to Peat I've always been under the impression we should have coffee with lots of sugar, not black. I've never seen any RP person recommend black coffee at all.

The rare time I have black coffee without dairy and sugar in it, is when I am eating a large portion of something sweet along with it. This is rare. Sometimes I just like black coffee alongside a piece of cake or something, but that's just me.

Adding: I wouldn't think of 600 mg. caffeine in one dose anyway, I was assuming it's PER DAY, if I even go this route.

Thanks, I worry that visitors who think they are reading a site with Peat's name will see recommendations from members which may be quite unsafe, as far as Peat is concerned.

Aside: Consider that the russian drug with 100 mg of caffeine will be a triple black espresso, so maybe lots of your cake to go with it!

Why couldn't it just be a couple cups of coffee with some gelatin (and of course the sugar and dairy)? Which is my morning routine anyway after breakfast. Why would it have to be a triple black espresso to equate the Russian drug?

 

[BingDing]

Finally, there is some evidence that alpha lipoic acid helps a lot with fatty liver but given Peat's opinion on it I would not recommend it.

Haidut, what is Peat's opinion? I couldn't find much.

Thx

 

[Peata]

60g protein in total for one day? Thats pretty low.
What else do you eat?

One of the few pillars of RP's recommendation is to have at least 80 grams of quality
protein. I have seen a big difference between having 70 grams of protein, which i was
getting in the beginning thinking it is close enough, than having 80 grams of protein. I am always skeptical of general claims that people are having all kinds of problems following "RP Diet" . No one knows what is one's definition of RP diet is .
I do not understand how someone gains weight (fat) if there is a weighing scale at home and knows how to count calories. RP does not recommend specific calories for everyone.
One eats according to his/her metabolic rate. There are foods like vegetable-fruit
broth and liver that have tons of nutrients with very little calories.

@Mittir - I actually look very lean and fit. Like I mentioned in another response, the doctor was surprised that I had a fatty liver.
I will try upping my protein intake going forward.

Also should increase carbs as well to offset the insulin response to protein, preferably through sugar/fruit. For me personally, I need at least twice as many carbs as protein.

 

[visionofstrength]

Since coming to Peat I've always been under the impression we should have coffee with lots of sugar, not black. I've never seen any RP person recommend black coffee at all.

The rare time I have black coffee without dairy and sugar in it, is when I am eating a large portion of something sweet along with it. This is rare. Sometimes I just like black coffee alongside a piece of cake or something, but that's just me.

Adding: I wouldn't think of 600 mg. caffeine in one dose anyway, I was assuming it's PER DAY, if I even go this route.

Thanks, I worry that visitors who think they are reading a site with Peat's name will see recommendations from members which may be quite unsafe, as far as Peat is concerned.

Aside: Consider that the russian drug with 100 mg of caffeine will be a triple black espresso, so maybe lots of your cake to go with it!

Why couldn't it just be a couple cups of coffee with some gelatin (and of course the sugar and dairy)? Which is my morning routine anyway after breakfast. Why would it have to be a triple black espresso to equate the Russian drug?

If you take the drug, you'll be gulping a triple black espresso all in one swig --- swallowing 100 mg of caffeine.

Or if you mean, do your several cups of coffee that eventually equal 100 mg of caffeine have the same effect as the russian drug?

I suppose there's room for disagreement, but the russian drugmaker's answer is no, only the single bolus dose has been "proven" to work (and of course, Peat would be quite skeptical of any such "proof").

 

[Such_Saturation]

From memory (KMUD): <<people who drink five or more cups of coffee a day have a decreased risk of Alzheimer's disease.>> <<do you drink five cups Doctor Peat?>> <<I try to.>>

It's interesting a Red Bull always makes me quite nervous unlike a cup (literally a cup) of coffee or triple espresso. I don't eat gelatin either. If you want to play the endotoxin game, mind yourself that the aflatoxin in coffee (which gets prominent in instant coffee) worsens endotoxin liver injury and makes it happen when neither would have caused it alone. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10 ... 47/related

I have nothing to doubt as to the soundness of my usual diet since ultrasound was done after a week of bread and wine and tunafish. But there is definitely a point after which you are intaking healing substances quicker than your body feels comfortable healing. If there is a way to alter even this secondary curve of change, it WILL involve more than simply binging randomly in your supplement cabinet.

 

[Mittir]

Ray Peat's Response on Coffee

I have send him a question about his Coffee intake and got a response in 10 minutes.

Q: Dr Peat

I had this impression from your interviews that you drink several cups of strong coffee .
But someone at forum is claiming that you drink weak coffee in the form of
" cafe con leche". Can you please clarify if you drink weak coffee or strong coffee.
What is your daily caffeine intake? I have heard you recommending 3-5 cups of coffee.
What do you think is the safe dose of caffeine intake daily for average
person?( with sugar and milk) Do you think it is safe to use caffeine tablet
of 600 mg or more to treat fatty liver?

That would be too much caffeine at once, unless it's with a big meal to slow its absorption. Coffee is much more than caffeine. A pound of coffee might last me three days, I'm not sure, but I use as much for a cup as Folger's says to use for a quart. When the concentrated extract is mixed with milk, the mixture is stronger than standard restaurant coffee.

 

[johns74]

RP probably shouldn't be bothered for unsubstantiated internet rumors.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Nobody is disagreeing with anybody. I'm pretty sure nobody said you need to ingest all your day's worth of coffee in one gulp to have a benefit on the liver. And by the way any serving of coffee is at least seventy-five milligrams of caffeine.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Ray Peat's Response on Coffee

That would be too much caffeine at once, unless it's with a big meal to slow its absorption. Coffee is much more than caffeine. A pound of coffee might last me three days, I'm not sure, but I use as much for a cup as Folger's says to use for a quart. When the concentrated extract is mixed with milk, the mixture is stronger than standard restaurant coffee.

Extrapolating: A pound of coffee makes about 8 quarts, which for Peat is 8 cups of concentrated extract. If we divide that over three days, and round up, let's say we get 3 cups of extract a day.

Rounding up again, a quart of coffee has 400 mg of caffeine. I don't have a reference for how much extra caffeine can be added by increasing the proportion of coffee to water in drip coffee, but if it's double, then he's consuming roughly 600 mg of caffeine a day. If it's a full quadruple, then he would be having roughly 1200 mg a day.

Important for Peat's ideas of safety: he mixes with milk (and I assume sugar, though he didn't say so) to dilute down to something stronger than restaurant coffee. This means a proportion of at least 2:1 milk to coffee (if the extract is double strength), and 4:1 milk to coffee (if the extract is a full quadruple strength).

I've never thought to mix coffee with such a large proportion of milk, but it makes sense if you want to slow down the absorption of the caffeine, to avoid the cortisol jitters.

 

[haidut]

Finally, there is some evidence that alpha lipoic acid helps a lot with fatty liver but given Peat's opinion on it I would not recommend it.

Haidut, what is Peat's opinion? I couldn't find much.

Thx

I think he said in some interview that it inhibits the conversion of T4 into T3. I am not sure as I personally have not been able to find anything from him on the topic. But if you search Peatarian.com and this forum that's the general consensus - i.e. he would not recommend it due to its effects on thyroid.

 

[haidut]

Re: Ray Peat's Response on Coffee

That would be too much caffeine at once, unless it's with a big meal to slow its absorption. Coffee is much more than caffeine. A pound of coffee might last me three days, I'm not sure, but I use as much for a cup as Folger's says to use for a quart. When the concentrated extract is mixed with milk, the mixture is stronger than standard restaurant coffee.

Extrapolating: A pound of coffee makes about 8 quarts, which for Peat is 8 cups of concentrated extract. If we divide that over three days, and round up, let's say we get 3 cups of extract a day.

Rounding up again, a quart of coffee has 400 mg of caffeine. I don't have a reference for how much extra caffeine can be added by increasing the proportion of coffee to water in drip coffee, but if it's double, then he's consuming roughly 600 mg of caffeine a day. If it's a full quadruple, then he would be having roughly 1200 mg a day.

Important for Peat's ideas of safety: he mixes with milk (and I assume sugar, though he didn't say so) to dilute down to something stronger than restaurant coffee. This means a proportion of at least 2:1 milk to coffee (if the extract is double strength), and 4:1 milk to coffee (if the extract is a full quadruple strength).

I've never thought to mix coffee with such a large proportion of milk, but it makes sense if you want to slow down the absorption of the caffeine, to avoid the cortisol jitters.

So, basically he think that 600mg of caffeine in one sitting is a lot. However, he did not say that 600mg a day is too much. As usual, I think the point here is that Peat thinks caffeine is a good substance and should be taken with food/sugar to limit the stress response. If you metabolism is good, you eat well, you weigh 200lbs and are 6'3'' of height then 600mg-800mg caffeine daily would not affect you much. (Note: That's not me)
I am not pushing for a specific range, all I am saying that in general the studies show dose-dependent beneficial effects of caffeine on fatty liver. I don't know of a study that found an upper bound, but there are a few studies showing lower bound and that happened to be about 100mg of caffeine daily for a human to see any benefit on fatty liver.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: Ray Peat's Response on Coffee

... in general the studies show dose-dependent beneficial effects of caffeine on fatty liver.

I admire how elegantly Peat sidestepped any controversy over how much caffeine is safe, saying simply that coffee is much more than caffeine. I trust it is not lost on anyone that what he did not say is that any amount of caffeine is safe, which is what one might expect from someone as prudent as Peat.

 

[haidut]

Re: Ray Peat's Response on Coffee

... in general the studies show dose-dependent beneficial effects of caffeine on fatty liver.

I admire how elegantly Peat sidestepped any controversy over how much caffeine is safe, saying simply that coffee is much more than caffeine. I trust it is not lost on anyone that what he did not say is that any amount of caffeine is safe, which is what one might expect from someone as prudent as Peat.

That's true, and probably another reason he recommends going with coffee rather than with a substance that in some countries is regulated like a drug. Nobody can blame him if someone tries to OD on coffee since it would take 50 cups and that person would get seizures from the liquid alone long before caffeine starts to affect them. Taking caffeine as isolated substance on the other hand can get risky very quickly...
Anyways, this is a good thread and in the spirit of Peat wisdom we should probably talk about substances in general that are known to be beneficial to the liver but without talking about specific dosing. Here is some info in vitamin E and NAFLD:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT01792115
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23075940

"...In Pioglitazone versus Vitamin E versus Placebo for the Treatment of Nondiabetic Patients with Nonalcoholic Steatohepatitis (PIVENS) trial, vitamin E therapy demonstrated a significant improvement in steatosis, inflammation, ballooning, and resolution of steatohepatitis in adult patients with aggressive NASH, who do not have diabetes or cirrhosis."

The link from Clinical Trials has some info on dosing.

 

[Katty]

Red Bull (or taurine) once per day [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21126079]
Stop niacinamide [Stops fat burning but you also see it improving fatty liver]
Choline [http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/4/892.abstract]
Stop progesterone [Keep it simple]
Stop aspirin [Stops burning and release of fat]
Avoid long chain fat
T4 every day [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22574630]

I'm a little late to this thread. But I'm confused about niacinamide. I thought it helps with glucose regulation. If that's true, wouldn't it help with weight loss if the weight gain was a result of poor glucose metabolism?
I realize the original poster was talking about having a fatty liver, and not actually needing to lose body fat. But wouldn't fat accumulation around the liver be similar to fat accumulation around the body generally?
A bit confused too on why aspirin is not indicated for fatty liver--- is this also true for weight loss generally?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Red Bull (or taurine) once per day [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21126079]
Stop niacinamide [Stops fat burning but you also see it improving fatty liver]
Choline [http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/4/892.abstract]
Stop progesterone [Keep it simple]
Stop aspirin [Stops burning and release of fat]
Avoid long chain fat
T4 every day [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22574630]

I'm a little late to this thread. But I'm confused about niacinamide. I thought it helps with glucose regulation. If that's true, wouldn't it help with weight loss if the weight gain was a result of poor glucose metabolism?
I realize the original poster was talking about having a fatty liver, and not actually needing to lose body fat. But wouldn't fat accumulation around the liver be similar to fat accumulation around the body generally?
A bit confused too on why aspirin is not indicated for fatty liver--- is this also true for weight loss generally?

They prevent fat burning and/or mobilization! I think you need breaks from them unless you eat almost no fat.

 

[BingDing]

Choline helps after being converted to betaine, there is an article here. The section on liver health has

Several reviews (125, 128, 144-149) recommend using betaine to treat NAFLD, including nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH)

Betaine cannot be converted into choline so there is no chance of promoting acetylcholine synthesis.

Betaine seems to be the red headed stepchild of nutrients. That article cites some promising studies in the early 1950s regarding heart disease but it kind of died off.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I'm not sure you can promote acetylcholine synthesis by eating choline. It's like iodine for thyroid.

 

[BingDing]

I suspect you are right SS, that was probably the wrong word. I just said that in case anyone was concerned about increasing their choline levels, since RP doesn't encourage deliberately increasing acetylcholine.

 

[visionofstrength]

Red Bull (or taurine) once per day [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21126079]
Stop niacinamide [Stops fat burning but you also see it improving fatty liver]
Choline [http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/4/892.abstract]
Stop progesterone [Keep it simple]
Stop aspirin [Stops burning and release of fat]
Avoid long chain fat
T4 every day [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22574630]

I'm a little late to this thread. But I'm confused about niacinamide. I thought it helps with glucose regulation. If that's true, wouldn't it help with weight loss if the weight gain was a result of poor glucose metabolism?
I realize the original poster was talking about having a fatty liver, and not actually needing to lose body fat. But wouldn't fat accumulation around the liver be similar to fat accumulation around the body generally?
A bit confused too on why aspirin is not indicated for fatty liver--- is this also true for weight loss generally?

They prevent fat burning and/or mobilization! I think you need breaks from them unless you eat almost no fat.

I want to give the usual caution about self-interested corruption in studies that show negative effects of niacinamide. It looks like it's a nutrient/drug that has extraordinary benefits, and if used widely, like CO2 or magnesium, would have the potential to shut down the heath care cartel. In Peat's latest newsletters he's been singling it out more and more both for its safety and benefits in increasing NAD+.

William Kaufman was one physician who went against the corruption of science in the 1940s by prescribing niacinamide for a wide range of ailments. In his clinical practice over 25 years he prescribed 250 mg of niacinamide every two hours thoughout the day, for a total of 2 grams, and was careful to observe side effects, spending hours of his time with each patient. I think his clinical practice is more thorough and honest than any modern day studies you are likely to see in PubMed.

There's an effort to recognize and preserve Kaufman's work here:
http://arthritistrust.org/wp-content/up ... aufman.pdf
http://www.doctoryourself.com/biblio_kaufman.html
http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2 ... 3-p140.pdf
http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2 ... 1-p029.pdf
https://www.google.com/webhp?#q=siter ... iacinamide