Relearning How To Breathe And Increasing CO2

[Heidi]

I'm awake in the middle of the night again. I really want to slow things down but that seems impossible. My body is too revved and doesn't seem able to sleep unless I give it enough of a CO2 fix, which it's now craving. I need the calming response. There's a strong self perpetuating cycle with this. Someone else will be able to explain it.

@Heidi
I am delighted you started this thread and are seeing such progress. As excited as I am about the potential for CO2 improvements, I doubt, with respect, that all your problems were CO2 deficiency. Could not the high degree of positive response you are experiencing also be because of the extensive work you have done on your health already, allowing CO2 to exert more potential quicker than in most? Your previous work suggests you have drive, motivation and persistence and now an intuitive understanding that allows for experimentation rather than following instructions per se. Many people, on different parts of their self-discovery journey, do not (for various reasons) have such a skill set and so even if reduced breathing, both the science and the exercises are explained to them, they do not do it, or persist, or see the value for them at least, at that point.
I saw this by Jacob Riis recently and perhaps it bears reiteration here:
"When nothing seems to help, I go and look at a stonecutter hammering away at his rock perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it. Yet at the hundred and first blow it will split in two, and I know it was not that blow that did it, but all that had gone before."
So, congratulations for the hard work you have put in before you found the CO2 piece of the puzzle, and for writing to share your journey here and starting this fascinating thread off.
You may have read in Dr Rakhimov's breathing retraining manual (short free version p. 29)
"3.5 Other hypocapnia-related abnormalities
Among other effects of CO2 deficiency are:
- abnormal excitability and irritability of nerve cells (e.g., Brown, 1953; Krnjevic, 1965; Balestrino &
Somjen, 1988; Huttunen et al, 1999);
- irritable state of muscles (muscular tension) (Brown, 1953; Hudlicka, 1973);"
and I think it relates to your new found muscular freedom perfectly.
I am fascinated with your lessened reaction to bee-stings, essentially lowered chemical reactivity which, to my way of thinking is immediately metabolic improvement. (Most hypothyroid/lowered metabolism people have heightened, in some cases vastly heightened sensitivity to chemicals, noises, most external triggers).
So great observations thanks, particularly interesting for me as we also have bees.
Sincerely,
Sheila

Thanks for this post Sheila. I feel like you really get what is happening for me. It's bigger than just the breathing. But all the pieces that I put in place before, were not able to fully function or express themselves, because I was working so hard at breathing the wrong way for so long. It is staggering how little shifts in breathing are causing this avalanche of things to fall into place. I'm sure that I'm not the only one out there, who has been unintentionally working hard to breath nice and deep. "Take a deep breath and oxygenate your body as much as possible," I feel like this myth is so widespread that it didn't occur to me to even question it.

(That's nice that you keep bees, too. We're going to be getting a flow hive soon. I'm really excited to try out that innovation.)

 

[SQu]

Sleep-sitting: This is only really beneficial if your torso is near 90 degrees upright.

Maybe this explains why the few times I resorted out of desperation to sleeping this way when struggling to breathe because of allergies and flu related congestion, I was surprised to warm up, relax, sleep well, and wake up distinctly better. I thought it was just that it was the only position in which I could breathe at all. Through my nose I mean. Because not being able to makes me panic.
Heidi , reading Peat I've noticed he often mentions the effects of some dietary recommendations as raising co2 and estrogen as lowering it, I recall him mentioning a blueish skin undertone to many women due to estrogen levels.

 

[Sheila]

Dear Blossom,
thank you for your post, I rate your experience highly.
I will go and play for a few months hoping to get a feel for if a simple oximeter will help my more unstable patients as a cross check in the future.
Do you see destabilisation from changes in weather patterns? I presume hospitals will have aircon thus humidity less of an issue but the pressure effects should still be evident?
Thanks again,
Sheila

 

[Heidi]

Sleep isn't happening. My mind is too stimulated and has too many questions.

Would it be good to raise one's oxygen levels by deep breathing or some hyperventilation, if one then countered that with enough CO2? To ask this question in terms of the oximeter, would it be good to raise your levels to about 99% and then do reduced breathing practices to drop them down a handful of percentage points from that higher level? Can you safely get more CO2 if your oxygen levels are higher or is this a complete misunderstanding of how it works?

Basically I'm wondering if there's a place and usefulness for deep breathing and oxygenation when done in moderation. Or is it best to only and always do as much reduced breathing as is comfortably possible? I'm wondering about the benefit of having the full spectrum and range of breathing possibilities available. Maybe hyperventilation isn't completely detrimental if it's done with the right balance of CO2? Is there a usefulness in working through the discomfort associated with hyperventilation? I feel like I overdeveloped one end of the spectrum and haven't developed the other end at all. Is the full range good, or is it best to only move in the reduced breathing direction?

From what I can tell, 99% saturation and you get a gold medal in most circles.

I am a classic gold star, perfect attendance record personality type. Sometimes I try hard to not be this way. It seems like whenever they have checked my oxygen levels at the doctor's office, it's 98 or 99% and they remark about how good it is.

I got really sick when I went to a state with a much higher elevation, and then my friend drove me up into the mountains before I'd had time to adjust. I saw an acupuncturist who told me that the oxygen wasn't getting into my cells. I instinctively knew he was right and always remembered what he'd said. But he didn't tell me why, and probably he didn't know about the importance of CO2 and not over breathing.

 

[tara]

" I feel like this myth is so widespread that it didn't occur to me to even question it.

Me too. So exciting to have things one 'knows' challenged so thoroughly, isn't it? :)

 

[ecstatichamster]

If you hyperventilate co2 enriched air you can actually increase your co2 levels and yiur body's oxygenation. I used to do it all the time putting the for love device in a large jar and doing deep breathing exercises it with it

 

[Prawns]

Would it be good to raise one's oxygen levels by deep breathing or some hyperventilation, if one then countered that with enough CO2? To ask this question in terms of the oximeter, would it be good to raise your levels to about 99% and then do reduced breathing practices to drop them down a handful of percentage points from that higher level? Can you safely get more CO2 if your oxygen levels are higher or is this a complete misunderstanding of how it works?

Remember that mainstream "deep breathing", or hyperventilating, doesn't improve the oxygenation of your tissues. It blows out CO2, which prevents the release of oxygen from the blood into the tissues. Alternating periods of hyperventilation and hypoventilation (in normal air) makes about as much sense as fasting one day and eating the next. You're increasing stress for no good reason, then lowering stress and recovering, but you'd be better off if you'd never hyperventilated or fasted at all.

As far as I know, the only valid use for hyperventilation (in normal air) is after an injury (see http://www.normalbreathing.com/breath-holds.php, the section under Cases with severe bleeding), or to extend the time you can spend underwater, which is not without its risks.

 

[Blossom]

Dear Blossom,
thank you for your post, I rate your experience highly.
I will go and play for a few months hoping to get a feel for if a simple oximeter will help my more unstable patients as a cross check in the future.
Do you see destabilisation from changes in weather patterns? I presume hospitals will have aircon thus humidity less of an issue but the pressure effects should still be evident?
Thanks again,
Sheila

@Sheila, your kindness warms my heart.
The people I work with primarily report changes in mucus production related to the weather. The environment has central heating and air but all of them also receive some humidified supplemental oxygen ( certainly no CO2) so there are minimal fluctuations in the spo2 with these folks when they are relatively medically stable because most are probably actually getting more oxygen than needed. It's hard to compare them to the average person because they are living with diagnoses of things like chronic respiratory failure and end stage copd (and to add insult to injury polypharmacy of 20 or more drugs). 90% have tracheostomy tubes and more than half of those are on mechanical ventilators. As per usual I think medicine has got some pieces and parts correct here and there but these people are not getting well for the most part which leads me to believe we are missing a great deal in the field that could really help people feel better even if a complete reversal of the situation is impossible after a certain point! I digress. I do what I can to turn down or remove oxygen when possible and teach slow breathing. It's not much but it's something.

I'm not sure how the hyperventilating and deep breathing fads took hold but it is completely backward. Everyone I know IRL since learning about Peat and Buteyko (not an expert by any stretch) and gaining an appreciation for CO2 has responded beautifully to simply slowing the breathing when short of breath or anxious whether the person breathes through their nose or trach tube if that's what they have. Sadly I'm probably the only person in my profession that believes this way but it works.

@brandonk thanks for the link to an affordable oximeter with an alarm.

 

[barefooter]

Thanks for this post Sheila. I feel like you really get what is happening for me. It's bigger than just the breathing. But all the pieces that I put in place before, were not able to fully function or express themselves, because I was working so hard at breathing the wrong way for so long. It is staggering how little shifts in breathing are causing this avalanche of things to fall into place

Heidi, I know this feeling, and I'm so happy you have finally found the missing piece that has tied everything together for you. Enjoy the ride, you have some blissful times ahead.

I spent years trying thing after thing, and feeling like I was constantly getting worse despite learning more about health. It was hard to finally admit after years of failure, that despite knowing more about health than anyone around me, I was far less healthy. Now that I've finally been able to put it all together (diet, exercise, sleep, breathing, socialization, learning, challenges, etc.), I'm seeing amazing improvements in a short time too.

 

[Heidi]

If you hyperventilate co2 enriched air you can actually increase your co2 levels and your body's oxygenation. I used to do it all the time putting the for love device in a large jar and doing deep breathing exercises it with it

Thanks. That's exactly the kind of thing that I was wondering about. So one could also hyperventilate into a bag and increase the body's oxygenation that way, but it wouldn't be quite as effective as the frolov device. So this might be a way for people who have serious diseases (or people who want to improve their health) to get more oxygen into their cells and tissues. I will try some of this when I get my oximeter and breathslim and feel balanced. (The typo of the "for love device" was so great that I didn't correct it.)

 

[Heidi]

Remember that mainstream "deep breathing", or hyperventilating, doesn't improve the oxygenation of your tissues. It blows out CO2, which prevents the release of oxygen from the blood into the tissues. Alternating periods of hyperventilation and hypoventilation (in normal air) makes about as much sense as fasting one day and eating the next. You're increasing stress for no good reason, then lowering stress and recovering, but you'd be better off if you'd never hyperventilated or fasted at all.

As far as I know, the only valid use for hyperventilation (in normal air) is after an injury (see http://www.normalbreathing.com/breath-holds.php, the section under Cases with severe bleeding), or to extend the time you can spend underwater, which is not without its risks.

I was meaning to alternate the two one right after the other, so that one could increase both oxygen and CO2 and thus potentially get more oxygen into the cells. But maybe like ecstatichamster said, it's good to do them simultaneously.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, I know this feeling, and I'm so happy you have finally found the missing piece that has tied everything together for you. Enjoy the ride, you have some blissful times ahead.

I spent years trying thing after thing, and feeling like I was constantly getting worse despite learning more about health. It was hard to finally admit after years of failure, that despite knowing more about health than anyone around me, I was far less healthy. Now that I've finally been able to put it all together (diet, exercise, sleep, breathing, socialization, learning, challenges, etc.), I'm seeing amazing improvements in a short time too.

Thanks barefooter, that is kind of you to say that. For years I felt as though I had failed myself, even though I had worked really hard. But a number of years ago things shifted for me internally, and since then I've had a feeling of enough inner success.

I'm curious to see how this new way of breathing develops over time. It's been so fast that I don't fully trust all the changes. I'm waiting to see what lasts. Are there things that have been especially key for you? Does your health feel good now?

 

[Sheila]

Blossom, many thanks, the increased mucous as a feature of further O2/CO2 imbalance under atmospheric changes, would make sense.
I applaud the thoughtful work you do and the perspective that you bring. Maybe there is some benefit to age?!
Thanks again
Sheila

 

[Blossom]

Blossom, many thanks, the increased mucous as a feature of further O2/CO2 imbalance under atmospheric changes, would make sense.
I applaud the thoughtful work you do and the perspective that you bring. Maybe there is some benefit to age?!
Thanks again
Sheila

Oh most definitely Sheila! Every season in life has it's purpose and I certainly wouldn't change a thing at this point.

 

[Ahanu]

in mckeowans new book he also recommends the use oft a pulsoximeter. saturarion shold drop below 94, better 90 percent for a succesful session but not below 80 percent. i think i will get one to and play with it. seems like fun :)

 

[Heidi]

SugarBoy would you recommend Patrick McKeown's book?

I would like to buy a few breathing books and was wondering which books people would most recommend. I was thinking about getting Patrick McKeown's new book the Oxygen Advantage and possibly one by Artour Rakhimov. His book Normal Breathing is expensive so I was hoping to get someone's recommendation about it. Also with his Advanced Buteyko Breathing Exercises there is a volume 1 that is a lot more expensive than the current one. I'm also open to other good breathing books, if someone has suggestions.

Patrick McKeown's book Close Your Mouth is available for free online. http://www.slideshare.net/trab22/cl...eathing-clinic-self-help-manual-mc-keown-2004 He recommends taping your mouth at night. He also recommends setting an alarm and waking up every 2-3 hours during the night to reset your breathing. I would not want to do that as I really value my sleep. But ironically I have been waking up frequently during the night and doing reduced breathing when I do. I didn't use to wake up this frequently before. So my subconscious seems to be onboard to some degree.

Things are going well. My body continues to stay relaxed. Reduced breathing is very peaceful. I look forward to practicing it. For the most part I've been able to maintain a pretty good reduced breath during the day. At night my breathing still reverts back to deeper breathing and hyperventilation. It's getting much easier to sustain reduced breathing. It's like my body has figured out the right amount of reduced breath that I can maintain consistently for a period of time, until I shift into an effortless, light, meditation-like kind of breathing.

My control pause fluctuates a lot but has mostly been in the 15-22 range. I'm really happy with the changes in my body, so I'm not too concerned that the CP hasn't risen much yet.

My oximeter and breathslim still haven't arrived. I'm looking forward to working with those tools.

I talked to my sister and she said a bunch of things that had me wondering if she has the opposite problem of too much CO2. (She's quite overweight.) There's been brief mention of this here on this forum. Does anyone have information about that and what kinds of breathing exercises would be appropriate? Thanks.

 

[tara]

I talked to my sister and she said a bunch of things that had me wondering if she has the opposite problem of too much CO2.

What makes you think that?

 

[Blossom]

I'm not sure from a Peat or Buteyko perspective but in medical circles there is a thing called obesity hypoventilation syndrome that can occur in obesity 2 and 3 (above bmi 35). It's sometimes considered a form of restrictive lung disease.

 

[Heidi]

Tara, my sister can hold her breath easily and also she has an extreme problem with her feet being really hot and painful. She has to wear flip flops even in the winter. Plus I'd read a brief thing that said people who are really obese can retain too much CO2.

Blossom, thanks. I will look that up.

 

[tara]

Tara, my sister can hold her breath easily and also she has an extreme problem with her feet being really hot and painful. She has to wear flip flops even in the winter. Plus I'd read a brief thing that said people who are really obese can retain too much CO2.

I don't think Buteyko or anyone would recomend reduced breathing for someone who was chronically hypercapnic/hypoxic.
I don't know what helps with this. I would be curious about average UpH.

Blossom, does that restricted breathing thing happen because large body mass pysically makes it difficult for the lungs to expand fully? Or is it considered more of a systemic thing?