Relearning How To Breathe And Increasing CO2

[Ahanu]

SugarBoy would you recommend Patrick McKeown's book?

I like the book but if u have already a book from him i wouldnt say its necesary. I realy liked his Anxiety free: stop worrying and quieten your mind! But same as with the other. I habe artours big book and a few others and it is very comprehensive. A lot of infos around buteyko. I dont like a few of its suggestions and his approach is more of a fighting against your body who breathes wrong. I dont like and i dont find this approach good in the long term.. So..if money dont bother you,get the books if it does better buy some good food. I think u know all you need to know and also you can asked people here if some questions arise. I would be very careful with the posture suggestions form buteyko and its practitioners. The Alexander technique has here some important knowlegde to offer. the rips for example should be free from unnecesary tension so they move a little bit in the breathing process. This is natural and restricting it because of the idea "bellybreathing" may not be helpful. Chestbreathing habit is far too complex for such crude interventions.

 

[Blossom]

Blossom, does that restricted breathing thing happen because large body mass pysically makes it difficult for the lungs to expand fully? Or is it considered more of a systemic thing?

Officially the cause is unknown because not everyone with a larger body mass has the issue. It is systemic in nature simply because there are body wide effects once breathing is impaired to a certain degree. I personally suspect maybe stress hormones and inflammation are involved. Perhaps the increased CO2 is protective in some situations and part of the obesity paradox often mentioned?
There are so many questions that won't even begin to be answered until we put aside our false ideas on both obesity and CO2!

 

[Heidi]

I forgot to mention that my sister has sleep apnea and uses a machine at night I think a CPAP. When I briefly looked up obesity hypoventilation syndrome (OHS) I found this:
"Although sleep-disordered breathing is not currently part of the basic definition of OHS, breathing during sleep in these individuals typically encompasses a number of polysomnographic defined phenotypes, including repetitive frank obstructive sleep apnea (OSAS) with hypercapnia, flow limitation causing obstructive hypoventilation, through to hypoventilation in all sleep stages (2). Sleep hypoventilation alone does not define OHS unless daytime hypercapnia is also present. However, it is possible that obese patients with hypoventilation during sleep without awake hypercapnia have a “prodromal” form of OHS and will later develop chronic hypercapnia. This may be similar to the clinical scenario observed in patients with sleep-disordered breathing and neuromuscular disease (3)."
Read More: http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201008-1280CI#.VqwV5S_SnmQ

Buteyko breathing is supposed to help sleep apnea. I'm just wondering if there are people who retain too much CO2 and that Butyeko and bag breathing would not be good for them. And how could one determine that?

I've been talking to people about breathing and some of them have tested their CP and I have been surprised by the range. The person who I did the transformational breathing with has a CP in the mid 30s and she does 100 hyperventilation breaths every day. A close friend with lifelong significant asthma has a CP in the mid 20s. My sister was a competitive swimmer and had vocal training, so she grew up with and still has good breath holding capabilities. My husband has no breathing problems but has a very low CP like me.

 

[tara]

Officially the cause is unknown because not everyone with a larger body mass has the issue. It is systemic in nature simply because there are body wide effects once breathing is impaired to a certain degree. I personally suspect maybe stress hormones and inflammation are involved. Perhaps the increased CO2 is protective in some situations and part of the obesity paradox often mentioned?
There are so many questions that won't even begin to be answered until we put aside our false ideas on both obesity and CO2!

Thanks Blossom. It makes sense that it would have systemic effects, whatever the cause. And that there is more to learn about this too.

 

[tara]

Buteyko breathing is supposed to help sleep apnea. I'm just wondering if there are people who retain too much CO2 and that Butyeko and bag breathing would not be good for them. And how could one determine that?

I can imagine that there would be cases where bag breathing would not be good.
How do the doctors diagnose hypercapnia and hypoventilation?

 

[Heidi]

Officially the cause is unknown because not everyone with a larger body mass has the issue. It is systemic in nature simply because there are body wide effects once breathing is impaired to a certain degree. I personally suspect maybe stress hormones and inflammation are involved. Perhaps the increased CO2 is protective in some situations and part of the obesity paradox often mentioned?
There are so many questions that won't even begin to be answered until we put aside our false ideas on both obesity and CO2!

Blossom, thanks for the bit more info. I wish I knew more about this. Correcting basic breathing seems so basic and beneficial. But western medicine focuses on more drastic measures and neglects the more basic low tech thing.

SugarBoy - thanks for the info about the books. I don't have a lot of money so I'm not sure yet what to get or not.

And Tara thanks for your excellent questions!

 

[Blossom]

How do the doctors diagnose hypercapnia and hypoventilation?

Blood work and lung function tests. Specifically an arterial blood gas analysis and PFT (pulmonary function test).

 

[Ahanu]

SugarBoy - thanks for the info about the books. I don't have a lot of money so I'm

Than better save the money. I can send you some PDF i have from different sources but it will take a week because i am travelling right now.

 

[Heidi]

Thanks SugarBoy. I sent you a message awhile back.

My oximeter and breathslim finally arrived. The breathslim was strenuous for me to do, but it seemed like it would strengthen my breathing. I'm glad that I got it. I was wondering about some of the other resistance breathing devices, such as the Expand-A-Lung. It seems like you could use those while walking around.

My baseline O2 level on the oximeter is 98%. It easily goes up to 99% after I eat or if my breathing isn't in a good place. I pretty much can't get my percentage any lower than 98%. If I hold my breath, bag breath, use the breathslim my percentage may very briefly dip down, but then goes right back up. If I do any of those things repeatedly, then my body tends to adjust and my O2 levels barely change at all. My guess is that before I started reducing my breathing, my baseline was probably firmly at 99%. Maybe with another month of practice my O2 levels will decrease to 97%? It is a bit discouraging that my O2 levels are so high and that I can easily raise them but not lower them. But I'm committed to this for the long term. (I did just ovulate, so that might be making it harder to raise CO2 levels.)

Well at least I don't have to worry about CO2 levels being too high and O2 levels going too low. I'm going to gradually try wearing a mask at night. I cut a dust mask smaller and stretched out the elastic so that it fits loosely and lots of air comes in. I also folded a surgical type mask in half for a similar effect.

On the experiential level things continue to be great. The other day when I exercised, I was suddenly able to just breathe through my nose the entire time. My breathing stayed relaxed and easy with no huffing or gasping for air. This was the first time that I ever been able to do this. I was excited to have such a sudden and pronounced shift.

On a daily basis my breathing is incredibly light and calm compared to what it was. It's hard to believe, but given my measurements via control pause and the oximeter, I should be able to gradually reduce my breathing a hell of a lot more.

 

[nerfherder]

Inspired by this thread I bought an oximeter and tried it out. At first I was stuck at 99. I thought it was broken and that I had to buy a fancier one. But over a few days the number dropped. I think it was simply the feedback of seeing the numbers and slowing my breathing. I could get it to drop to 98 and then the next day to 97. It has only been a week but if I sit and concentrate I can get it to 95 with the occasional dip to 94/93. I ran it when I woke at night a couple of times and then it was a lot lower, 90 or less. The oximeter convinced me I wasn't hyperventilating at night. My standard reading during the day is a bit lower, at 96 or 97 instead of the 99 it was a week ago.

So don't be discouraged. Give it a few days and relax and watch the numbers. Now it is fun for me to relax my way down to a lower number.

[Note this is my first post after a lot of of lurking because I finally had something to contribute.]

 

[tara]

[Note this is my first post after a lot of of lurking because I finally had something to contribute.]

Welcome nerfherder. :)
Nice story. Can you tell that the practice makes any diference to you?

 

[Heidi]

Hi nerfherder. Thanks for the encouragement and thanks for posting your experience. I am jealous with how fast you've gotten your SpO2 to go down. I'm pretty sure that mine will eventually go down, but it's going to take a lot longer than a week.

Last night was the first night that I felt like my breathing stayed lighter and that I didn't hyperventilate. My SpO2 reading upon awakening was a good steady 97% for the first time. My CP was 20, which for first thing in the morning was very good for me. (I have a cold, so maybe being slightly congested and taping my mouth was the reason why my breathing was better during the night. I also took a short walk yesterday and did breath holding practice for the duration of the walk for the first time.)

So after checking my SpO2 and CP, I did breath reducing, slowing, and relaxation practice. My O2 reading fluctuated up a bit and CP didn't change at all. Yet my breathing and body always feel significantly better whenever I do the breath reducing/relaxation practice. I notice a lot of good physical changes. If I'm feeling any physical pain, the pain will be reduced. So all the physical changes are great feedback, but it would be nice if the oximeter or control pause also confirmed the benefit. Then I did some breath holds and my CP went up to 25, but my SpO2 went back to its current baseline of 98%. After I do the breath holds, I don't feel or notice any difference in my breathing or body. But I am going to stick with the breath holds especially when doing mild exercise such as walking or climbing stairs.

I'm curious about which breathing practices any of you have found to be the most beneficial. Also, I'm curious about how well the oximeter and CP measure the success of those practices for you.

I came across the lab results for the last time that I had routine blood work done over the past summer. My CO2 was 27 mmol/L. and it said that normal range was 22-34 mmol/L. So that has my CO2 almost in the middle of that range. Could any of you with medical experience give me feedback on this? It seems like this indicates that the amount of CO2 in my blood might be better than the oximeter readings suggest. Does Ray Peat or anyone knowledgeable have recommendations as to what this number would optimally be? Thanks.

 

[nerfherder]

Welcome nerfherder. :)
Nice story. Can you tell that the practice makes any diference to you?

Nothing obvious. Maybe warmer hands and face. It was just a shock to find the number drop, stay down and go a little lower. My breathing is more gentle when I drive, which I did a lot of the last few days.

I'm curious about which breathing practices any of you have found to be the most beneficial.

I tried a couple of protocols. There's a breathing app on my phone that does a 4sec in - 4sec hold - 4sec out - 4sec hold cycle which is easy enough to do but the full breath hold feels stressful, so I dropped it. I can breathe (with the help of an app) in up to 30 second cycles indefinitely which is geeky fun, but I think that ends up causing a bit of hyperventilation as I breathe out a lot deeper. So what actually worked for me was to calm everything down and think of light breaths as light and gentle as I could make them and to enjoy the whole thing. That's when the oximeter number went down.

These threads are really interesting. Thank you all.

 

[Heidi]

Just reread this thread.

Meditating: I agree with everything that Ray-Z said in his post on meditation. This is complete speculation, but I think that half of the benefits from meditation are from high CO2, and half are from concentration/attention training. Like the lotus pose, I wonder to what degree consciously or unconsciously ancient meditators sought out mountains to build their temples. Did they realise it was easier to reach meditative states at high altitude, or was it simply in search of solitude that they lived on mountains?

This whole idea is so fascinating to me. It seems like a lot of the benefit of meditation is from increasing CO2. And yet I don't recall any mention of CO2 in all the meditation books that I've read. Or any meditation or spiritual teachers talking about it. In general the focus is just on increasing awareness of breathing without trying to change it. But simple awareness, if given enough time, does tend to relax and reduce breathing.

But different meditation practices have breathing tips that can be useful for breath reduction. For example my husband use to meditate a lot, and his meditation practice was to focus on his breath. So I recently questioned him on exactly how he focused on his breathing. His main focal point was on feeling his inhale as the breath came in his nostril. He said that the exhale could be too subtle to focus on. And that focusing on the abdomen didn't work so well for him. I think that focusing on the feeling of air coming in the nostril can be a helpful tool for reducing breathing.

Heidi , reading Peat I've noticed he often mentions the effects of some dietary recommendations as raising co2 and estrogen as lowering it, I recall him mentioning a blueish skin undertone to many women due to estrogen levels.

This was really interesting to me when I first read it. But I haven't been sure where to find more info on this. Was wondering if anyone could point me to some threads or articles that discuss this. Thanks.

 

[tara]

And yet I don't recall any mention of CO2 in all the meditation books that I've read. Or any meditation or spiritual teachers talking about it.

Prana?

 

[Heidi]

Prana?

I am not an expert but I thought that prana was similar to chi and is about life force or energy moving through the physical and subtle bodies. Increasing CO2 feels like it is having a very beneficial effect on my prana/life force/chi. But CO2 is so specific and prana/life force/chi feels so broad in comparison.

 

[tara]

I am not an expert but I thought that prana was similar to chi and is about life force or energy moving through the physical and subtle bodies. Increasing CO2 feels like it is having a very beneficial effect on my prana/life force/chi. But CO2 is so specific and prana/life force/chi feels so broad in comparison.

I'm not an expert either - have not studied pranayama more than very superficial reading, and just had the odd explanation of chi from an acupuncturist or two. But I think some of the old yoga texts talk of prana as life force that you retain by learning to restrain the breath - the energy that you keep in your body if you can learn not to breath it out. Which might be about life force, but might also correlate pretty well with CO2, since they go together so well. I think of chi as more of a matter of how energy flows through channels in the body, which might also be related to CO2, but doesn't seem as close to the possible prana/CO2 link because of the references to breath.

 

[Prawns]

I've increased my meditation practice to an hour or more a day (30 minutes per sit) for the last few days. Every time I have a health setback and read one of Ray Peat's articles for inspiration, I am always reminded of CO2 as the key piece in the puzzle - the inhibitor of anti-metabolic influences and the enabler of pro-metabolic influences.

In my post above I guessed at a 50/50 contribution from high CO2 and concentration training to the beneficial effects of meditation, but instead of that I've started to think of it all as a virtuous circle of increasing metabolism. All the helpful influences we already know about (sugar, protein, red light, saturated fat, creativity etc) contribute to a faster metabolism, longer lifespan, greater intelligence, and so on. One influence that Peatarians haven't directly talked about yet is concentration, which when applied to the process of breathing, seems to permit a higher retention of CO2 than other times when awake. In this high CO2 state, where the brain is highly oxygenated, fuelled by glucose and comparatively free of stress, the brain is like "It's morphin' time!" and works to structure itself away from a stress-adapted structure and towards an ideal structure, whatever that may be. Among other things, the amygdala shrinks and the pre-frontal cortex grows. The reason I'm naming concentration on the breath is because you can't consciously cultivate a lasting high CO2 state without stress any other way. The body only permits CO2 to rise gradually, and breath holds cause the production of stress hormones if you do them longer than your CP. Bag-breathing isn't sustainable for as long as meditation as after a few minutes there'll be too much CO2 in the bag. Bag-breathing and breath-holds will raise CO2 for a few minutes, but I don't think it's comparable to the brain and body structuring you could achieve when doing breath meditation for 30-60 minutes.

Of course, it's not necessary to meditate to increase your metabolism (and intelligence, and mental health and so on) but I think it's one of the most efficient ways of doing it, and worthy of as much consideration here as red light and hormone supplementation.

Apologies if I'm just repeating what others like pranarupa have already said, this is just the thought process I had in considering how meditation works. I've done it for 20 minute sessions on and off for three years, but never consistently, because I didn't understand it beyond accepting what others had told me. Since Peating for a year, I now have the energy and structure to realise that it's all about energy and structure.

 

[onioneyedox]

Yes, very well said Rieul. Those things are what I have been thinking and experiencing as well. There is more to meditation than just increased CO2. It shouldn't be main focus, imo. Just relaxation (at the beginning of session and when tension rises to attention) and thoughtless concentration/experience/awereness. CO2 probably rises automatically. I would think that meditating (meditative concentration not just breathing exercise or mindfulness) at young age, before youthful metabolism has been compromised (teens/late teens), (let's add free from restricting ideologies/religions) would have very interesting effects.

 

[Heidi]

I'm glad that meditation and prana and the relationship to CO2 and Ray Peat are being discussed. My current focus on breathing and increasing CO2 has given me a renewed appreciation for the value of meditation.

There is more to meditation than just increased CO2. It shouldn't be main focus, imo. Just relaxation (at the beginning of session and when tension rises to attention) and thoughtless concentration/experience/awareness. CO2 probably rises automatically.

I agree. But for now increased CO2 needs to be the main focus for me, until I come into better balance. I also have come to see meditation in a broader context. That it seamlessly infiltrates into all of everyday life, rather than just something that one practices in stillness for a certain amount of time each day. Increasing CO2 is helping me to integrate meditation in my life in this way. I'm becoming mindful of my breathing during all different kinds of situations. It's very interesting to follow breathing (and pulse) in this way. My lack of CO2 has given me a very good reason to pay close attention. I wasn't motivated to pay attention in these specific ways before.