Sensitivity to my own cortisol / adrenaline - waking at 3am every day - please help!

[MountainMouse]

I’m recovering and on thyroid but I can’t sleep past 3am. I wake up to my body blasting off adrenaline or cortisol (or both) every day. It’s been a long road but no drug can get me through this part of the night. It doesn’t matter how much I’ve eaten into the night or if I set an alarm to eat at 2am. I went through crazy stress/brain inflammation after the shingles virus and I feel like I’m suffering a form of ptsd /exaggerated stress response/hpa dysfunction. What could I take to help re-set this so I can sleep? I’m always a mess until mid morning after it happens.

I tried progesterone previously when I didn’t have thyroid support. DHEA and Preg can make me really stiff for some reason. Theanine can make me stiff also but I’m tempted to try it again now that my temps are better on thyroid.

Attached is my Dutch Test when I was at my worst.

@FitnessMike - Did you struggle with something similar?

 

[Nfinkelstein]

Having black tea, even at night, seems to help me with adrenaline, I guess it is the theanine. Cortisol - 3 ideas: PS, Relora, Idealabs Diamant.

 

[Waynish]

It is good to be sensitive to your own hormones! Not being able to sleep is pretty far gone in many cases. See a chinese medicine doc for diagnosis & herbs, get more light during the day, give us more information so we can better deduce the case... Medical history

 

[FitnessMike]

are you taking enough thyroid hormones? you need them to be at optimal levels to store enough glycogen.

you need to focus on diet and hormone level, high carb is very effective for conversion and keeping cortisol low, like 60-70%, everything else like supplements are secondary.

 

[Validus]

I have a similar problem. I was awake at 330 this morning which is very normal the past couple years. I'll force myself to lay in bed at least until 4 and meditate until then before I allow myself to get up.

This may go without saying, but go to bed as early as you can. The first half of the night, deep sleep is prioritized, healing ourselves physically, so you don't want to miss that and sounds like you're not anyway. The second half of the night is geared toward REM and light sleep. So memory consolidation, learning etc.

As others have mentioned, get as much light as possible throughout the day as possible.

For supplementation, potassium spread throughout the day along with sodium bicarbonate. Throw in some fish oil taken with curcumin.

One hour before bed: 1g of niacin. Niacin is gabanergic and after the flush dissipates, it helps our core body temp drop.

Right before bed, a dose of ZMA, aspirin, and 600 mgs of phosphatidylserine. I also use progesterone cream - 20 mgs right before bed.

Theanine does not help me sleep. It gives me dreams so intense they disturb my sleep. I like it during the day in certain instances though.

 

[purple pill]

If more natural methods dont work out id maybe look into low dose mirtazapine (7.5mg), never had the issue of waking up at stupid o'clock but been using it for a few weeks, definitely lowers stress hormones and improves sleep and feels pretty benign as far as pharmaceuticals go. Seems like a good aid while getting your thyroid dialed in if your adrenals are out of whack. Theres also cypro but doesnt agree with me, seems to have helped many on here though

 

[youngsinatra]

Have you tried some form of magnesium supplementation?

 

[MountainMouse]

are you taking enough thyroid hormones? you need them to be at optimal levels to store enough glycogen.

you need to focus on diet and hormone level, high carb is very effective for conversion and keeping cortisol low, like 60-70%, everything else like supplements are secondary.

For last 3 weeks: I’m taking 10mcg T3 with breakfast, 10mcg T3 at lunch then 1 grain before bed. My temps were good at 98 waking then 98.6 in the afternoon but recently changed a bit where they are slightly lower. Even when temps were good, I’d still get the waking - it was just easier to deal with during the day. When I get the waking and cold temps, my days are really hard.

 

[mostlylurking]

For last 3 weeks: I’m taking 10mcg T3 with breakfast, 10mcg T3 at lunch then 1 grain before bed.

I'm hypothyroid too. I take all my prescription desiccated thyroid (all 135mg of it) all at once first thing in the morning. Too much thyroid med causes insomnia. That said, I've been through what you're going through with the 3:00am gunshot awake nightly for months (during the time I was optimizing my thyroid med with my endocrinologist). I would get up nightly, drink a 16 oz. glass of milk with a tablespoon of sugar in it and go back to sleep. Sugar is supposed to lower adrenaline and cortisol. Milk acts as a sedative.

Magnesium lowers cortisol too. Hypothyroid people have a hard time "holding onto their magnesium", according to Ray Peat, which I think means it doesn't stay in the body and you're more prone to being magnesium deficient. Here's an article about magnesium:

Magnesium Status and Stress: The Vicious Circle Concept Revisited

Magnesium deficiency and stress are both common conditions among the general population, which, over time, can increase the risk of health consequences. Numerous studies, both in pre-clinical and clinical settings, have investigated the interaction of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"In this neurobiological model, cortisol is a well-known mediator of the stress response. The nocturnal cortisol urinary excretion in apparently healthy subjects reflects the basal tone of the HPA axis [100]; conversely, the blood cortisol concentration measured in a challenging environment is a sign of stress activity [101]. It has been shown that cortisol coordinates the central response to stress at several levels [102], and indirectly influences mechanisms of neuroprotection [103]. Neurotrophic factor production, represented by the brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BNDF), intervenes in allostasis through protecting neurons [104]. Normally, BNDF promotes neuronal survival and plasticity [104]; however, changes in BNDF expression have been reported following exposure to stressful stimuli. An increase of BNDF has been observed in response to moderate stress [105], whereas a decrease has been associated with high levels of stress [106]. Furthermore, increasing evidence shows a link between cortisol responses and oxidant elevation [107]. The accumulation of free radicals and other reactive oxygen species is also a sign of allostatic load, resulting from the imbalance between cellular metabolic activities and antioxidant defense mechanisms [108,109]."
also:
"Cortisol: Magnesium indirectly reduces the release of ACTH by modulating the neurotransmission pathways, and therefore decreases cortisol levels in the body [42]...."
-end paste-
For me, my antioxidant defense mechanisms were overwhelmed due to my heavy metal toxicity and my cortisol would wake me up every night. I have vastly improved my own situation via high dose thiamine (which acts as an antioxidant, among many other things). Thiamine improves the body's ability to tolerate magnesium and thiamine also needs magnesium to work. These things are interrelated. In addition to the thiamine, I take 3/8 teaspoon of magnesium glycinate 2Xday which equals to about 400mg of magnesium. I also supplement with other b's, including riboflavin and niacinamide, but in lower doses.

 

[MountainMouse]

I'm hypothyroid too. I take all my prescription desiccated thyroid (all 135mg of it) all at once first thing in the morning. Too much thyroid med causes insomnia. That said, I've been through what you're going through with the 3:00am gunshot awake nightly for months (during the time I was optimizing my thyroid med with my endocrinologist). I would get up nightly, drink a 16 oz. glass of milk with a tablespoon of sugar in it and go back to sleep. Sugar is supposed to lower adrenaline and cortisol. Milk acts as a sedative.

Magnesium lowers cortisol too. Hypothyroid people have a hard time "holding onto their magnesium", according to Ray Peat, which I think means it doesn't stay in the body and you're more prone to being magnesium deficient. Here's an article about magnesium:

Magnesium Status and Stress: The Vicious Circle Concept Revisited

Magnesium deficiency and stress are both common conditions among the general population, which, over time, can increase the risk of health consequences. Numerous studies, both in pre-clinical and clinical settings, have investigated the interaction of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"In this neurobiological model, cortisol is a well-known mediator of the stress response. The nocturnal cortisol urinary excretion in apparently healthy subjects reflects the basal tone of the HPA axis [100]; conversely, the blood cortisol concentration measured in a challenging environment is a sign of stress activity [101]. It has been shown that cortisol coordinates the central response to stress at several levels [102], and indirectly influences mechanisms of neuroprotection [103]. Neurotrophic factor production, represented by the brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BNDF), intervenes in allostasis through protecting neurons [104]. Normally, BNDF promotes neuronal survival and plasticity [104]; however, changes in BNDF expression have been reported following exposure to stressful stimuli. An increase of BNDF has been observed in response to moderate stress [105], whereas a decrease has been associated with high levels of stress [106]. Furthermore, increasing evidence shows a link between cortisol responses and oxidant elevation [107]. The accumulation of free radicals and other reactive oxygen species is also a sign of allostatic load, resulting from the imbalance between cellular metabolic activities and antioxidant defense mechanisms [108,109]."
also:
"Cortisol: Magnesium indirectly reduces the release of ACTH by modulating the neurotransmission pathways, and therefore decreases cortisol levels in the body [42]...."
-end paste-
For me, my antioxidant defense mechanisms were overwhelmed due to my heavy metal toxicity and my cortisol would wake me up every night. I have vastly improved my own situation via high dose thiamine (which acts as an antioxidant, among many other things). Thiamine improves the body's ability to tolerate magnesium and thiamine also needs magnesium to work. These things are interrelated. In addition to the thiamine, I take 3/8 teaspoon of magnesium glycinate 2Xday which equals to about 400mg of magnesium. I also supplement with other b's, including riboflavin and niacinamide, but in lower doses.

Wow, thank you for all of this information. Did you notice the gunshot awakenings lessen by taking thyroid in the morning? I’m debating changing up my dose to maybe take 1.5 grains in the morning and then 5mcg T3 at lunch. Do you take it on an empty stomach? Also do you avoid calcium in your first meal - how long after dosing?

 

[mostlylurking]

Wow, thank you for all of this information. Did you notice the gunshot awakenings lessen by taking thyroid in the morning? I’m debating changing up my dose to maybe take 1.5 grains in the morning and then 5mcg T3 at lunch. Do you take it on an empty stomach? Also do you avoid calcium in your first meal - how long after dosing?

I can't say that I did because I've taken my thyroid med first thing in the morning for the past 40+ years. However, thinking back on this, I got really sick in 2014 most likely because Armour changed owners and they changed the formula for their desiccated thyroid and it stopped working for me. I came down with rheumatoid arthritis and had severe hypothyroid symptoms. This is when I stopped sleeping through the night as I recall. I found Ray Peat, found a good endocrinologist, changed my diet, got my thyroid med changed to NP Thyroid by Acella, started taking vitamin supplements and slowly regained my health over the next 12 months. I remember spending a lot of time 2:00am-4:00am wide awake, reading Ray Peat articles and making notes, because my short term memory was in the ditch.

Do you have a good endocrinologist to help you? It took 9-10 months for my endo to finally determine my optimum dose of thyroid med. He ran blood work and titrated my thyroid dose up about every 6 weeks. Each time, the increased dose made me feel much better, but then, my body would acclimate to the higher dose and stop making so much adrenaline and I'd feel crappy again. Getting the body to learn to rely on thyroid hormone instead of cranking out adrenaline to keep functioning takes some time and finesse. This is why it takes multiple tritrations to finally get to the optimum dose of thyroid hormone. It helps to have a good endo to help you.

Another wrinkle in this is that too much thyroid hormone can make you hyperthyroid. Hyperthyroidism blocks thiamine function. Blocked thiamine function can feel just like hypothyroidism.

When my thiamine function was blocked in 2020, even though I was taking my optimized dose of NP Thyroid, I had brain fog, low body temperature, high inflammation, etc. It was very confusing. I got my blood tests run 2 months early because I thought I had gotten a bad batch of medication. The tests showed my T3 was through the roof so my doctor lowered my dose from 180mg down to 135mg. I would never have been able to figure this out without my endo.

For the longest time (many years) I would just take the thyroid med in the morning, then eat shortly thereafter. Milk didn't seem to affect the response to the med. However, when my thiamine function got blocked in 2020, I became very sensitive to milk/calcium; if I drank it within an hour of taking my thyroid med I felt like I needed to go back to bed. Now that I'm high dosing thiamine hcl, I no longer have that negative reaction to milk/calcium blocking my thyroid med. I dunno. Something got better.