Stimulants

[pboy]

does anyone here take no stimulants at all? (coffee, chocolate, tobacco, others)

I think there might be an intimate connection between the body being stimulated (either by dietary stimulants or just actual fight or flight in life) and the mentality developing within people of competing, rather than wishing the best or operating as a person more considering other peoples well being, not as a thought, but just as a natural inclination. It seems the ego or monkey mind is connected to this also. Its scary to think of the damage that's been potentially caused to many people by this. Its hard to explain or rather I don't wanna elaborate on it now but I think a loving feeling is hard to actually feel, within yourself also, when chronically in a stimulated state...and I think this is what potentially predisposes to many diseases, just because of the chronic tension and probably certain cells that require full relaxation to reach might get cut off. Most mental issues as well, or criminal kind of or just ruthless motivations. Its sad to think because when I really feel it...its beautiful, and to think of how much even I via stimulant use and being stressed out a lot growing up contributed to potentially my own tensing up and therefore having competitive rather than loving thoughts, which just is a reflection of how you feel inside (very nourished/nurtured opposed to in pain tension or feeling a sense of depravation).

I dunno I stopped using coffee a while ago but still have been smoking tobacco, its hard for me to say because I was and for a long time had been living in a situation that basically was inevitably a cortisol stress reaction just by virtue of me being there. Like its really what it is and a big time thing for me to realize, and makes me realize why a lot of people could use therapy and what it would take on a big scale. I think females naturally operate in a more nurturing way, its clearly not all like that, but especially men like most are I think pretty damaged in the modern day and society. Its mostly a lower gut thing, a feeling, and its a big reason people have food issues (just overeating like most americans do or not having a conscious awareness is definitely a food issue) and guts and stuff. If you aren't in a nurturing mood, to yourself and others, but really like without a single competitive or negative thought on mind, just as if everyone was on the same team with the same goal, its really bad news for the lower gut, then the heart, then the mind...and im thinking now stimulants don't force this but kind of predispose and/or exacerbate the kind of cancerous competitive thoughts and tendencies people have. The fact that society even starting in school is a competitive nature is testament to how large scale and bad the problem is. When I say nurturing also, I don't just mean with like food and shelter and stuff, I mean in the sense of being fun, energy being towards everyone smiling and enjoying themselves and feeling open and promoting it and being it. I think a genuinely healthy person actually has that kind of energy. The more serious is usually the more tense which means constriction which means the person is brewing competitive or disparaging thoughts rather than promoting joy all around them kind of thoughts. It doesn't actually take being serious to come to any kind of breakthroughs or complete difficult things, it probably makes it harder actually, I don't mean unfocused..just without tension, like still being funny the whole time. Maybe im alone here but ohs wells

 

[barefooter]

Interesting thoughts and questions pboy. I'm surprised to see you lumping chocolate in with other stimulants, as I recall you talking about it as being different from other stimulants--more heart opening. Have you changed your position on that after eating more of it? I do think you're general idea that being overly amped up makes it harder to be in a loving state has some weight to it. It seems to fit with a lot of experiences in my life. I think it likely has a lot to do with the context for stimulant use. Mostly they're used so people can have energy to get ***t done, which is really contrary to fostering deep connection. I don't think it has to be this way, and while I don't drink much coffee, there have been times where it's put me in a really nice energetic and open state that allows solid connection with people.

Love is a complex thing. I mean, evolutionarily speaking what is the point of love? Is it a feel good stimulation to ensure bonding and closeness within a tribe so people take care of those around them? If stress hormones are high, love becomes less essential than the fight to survive the stressor.

I've been pondering about love the last week. I was in a pretty bad place the last 4 months, really stressed out, feeling all crazy, and I felt so far away from having any feelings of love for anything. And this kinda goes with what your saying, that being overly stimulated can put someone into a survival state, where they can't feel love.

From everything I've been through, here's what I think about love. It's not an action, but a feeling derived from experiencing shared consciousness with other beings. Looking back on my life, I've tended to feel love when I've been really present in the reality around me and the people I'm with. A lot of the time, we're in our own little worlds inside our heads. We're living in the same physical reality, but because of our brains, we're actually all living in slightly different versions of that reality. Love is when we can be with others and merge those multiple realities into one.

 

[tara]

@pboy
Much of my life I have not used stimulants. Only started a very little coffee in the last few years, never tobacco, sometimes chocolate but also long times with no chocolate. Currently I use just a little decaf coffee some days but not every day and/or a little caffeine caffeine (a spray or two of Haidut's [edit:]solban topically), and have been trying to leave out the chocolate experimentally - I struggle with this when I get a bit sleep-deprived, so I haven't managed to make a month without it yet.

I like it when I have enough energy without stimulants. Sometimes I don't have enough energy to function. For those times, I'm still not sure what makes sense, and I'm still experimenting, but I never use large quantities (ie I never drink as much as a whole cup of full caffeine coffee in a day). When I am very low on energy, a little coffee or chocolate can sometimes provide me with enough of an energy boost to allow me to be more relaxed, sleep more easily, and have more positive energy to play or pay attention to other people - so for me, in small doses, it doesn't always seem to have some of those negative effects you describe.

I agree that competitive attitudes can get in the way of caring about people and making things go well for everyone. I agree that society encourages and enforces this explicitly to our detriment, and that it is a significant part of the stresses men have to deal with. Women too, but it has traditionally been more heavily enforced on men in some ways, and I believe it is hard on them.

 

[mbarvian]

Good discussion here. Your theory seems to align with what I've read from other meditators as well; most of them seem to avoid caffeine - especially coffee - for the exact reason you provided. It's almost a superficial alertness rather than a deep, vulnerable connectedness to the rest of the world (forgive the hippie language). That being said, I only take stimulants once a week so while it may be my intolerance, I seem to get very good effects from green tea but only an artificial "high" from coffee. I actually had a great experience meditating after 2 cups of green tea and some pizza yesterday, whereas with coffee I find it nearly impossible to focus on one object for more than a couple seconds at a time. I've stayed in Buddhist temples and the monks seem to love the stuff, so maybe there's something special about it? Would be interested in hearing other's opinion about this. Thanks for posting, though.

 

[BenPatrick]

Stimulants seem to help me have more experiences and be more willing to get out and have fun, which is what I really want from life- being able to share positive fun experiences with others and get things done (keeping my place clean, taking my dog to parks and stuff). I think chocolate is my favorite right now, coffee seems to be tough to consistently drink without feeling depleted. I might have a cup through out the day with my goat milk and sugar.

I've been thinking about trying tobacco in different forms. Smokers are like the seemingly healthiest people I know, at least around my age group (mid/late 20s). Still not enough experience myself to weigh in on it.

I'm really big into how I feel like energy wise too and I do feel like when I'm like gogogo getting stuff done, I feel more aggressive and like superior I guess, which I think can be helpful in developing a strong personality, but I can see problems coming from too much of that superior feeling for too long, until people become so wrapped up in themselves they actually think they're better than people. We're all part of the same thing- some got luckier than others, but the more we focus on the differences, the less we'll be able to see our own struggles in others, and the less we'll want to lead and help by being open and good examples for others to learn from

 

[narouz]

I was thinking the other day about coffee
and the common conception of it as a "stimulant."

I mean,
before I got into Peat,
that was my take on coffee: a stimulant.

And what made me think of it, yesterday,
was that a woman at work really thinks of it that way:
to stay awake.

But Peat...I'd have to review...
but I'm not sure he ever refers to it as a "stimulant."
Does he?
I mean, he lists a million great thngs caffeine does for us in his article
titled, I think, "Caffeine."
But I can't really recall him noting "stimulation," per se, as one of those good effects.

I may not be a great spokesperson on this subject,
because I've been feeling pretty low energy/inert in the last couple of years,
but when I drink coffee now
I don't seem to get a "buzz."
I remember I used to--sometimes unpleasantly so.
Now, I just drink it because Peat says it is good for me,
it tastes good,
and...well...I guess it does sortuv help me to focus in some subtle way
first thing as I wake up...

This is probably neither here nor there with what you're saying, pboy.
I'm not challenging that it may indeed be a stimulant....

 

[charlie]

In the last KMUD interview Ray Peat said to use coffee as a food, not a stimulant.

 

[montmorency]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/96517/ In the last KMUD interview Ray Peat said to use coffee as a food, not a stimulant.

But it would still have a stimulating effect wouldn't it, no matter how you were intending to use it?

 

[tara]

What do people mean by stimulant?

Substance that increases energy available in the short-term, and therefore can increase short-term performance? This seems to be able to be accomplished by factors that either increase thyroid metabolism, or increase stress hormones. Does T3 etc count as a stimulant?

Coffee, for instance, seems to be able to do either of these, depending on the context.

For me, coffee can be a very effective sleep aid (in small quantities). I assume it helps raise metabolism a little in the short-term, and gives me enough energy to get to sleep. In the slightly longer-term, it seems to deplete my energy (which is why I usually don't use much).
I assume the effects of coffee on individuals depend on multiple factors including status of metabolism, nutrition, etc. Maybe the same applies to other 'stimulants'.

 

[pboy]

stimulant is something that raises your metabolic rate whether or not you have the energy to support it, bypassing essentially your stores to usage over time ratio. Many substances are like this, usually bitters, and stress from the environment also. Basically this is the recipe for all cellular issues over time...stimulated past the point of energy being able to keep up. So it kind of seems silly to an extent to ever use such things...however there can be a use...purely for the joy of it, or to maximize efficiency in time, or for some kind of competitive event, but your calorie rate will have to increase at the same rate, and you'll have to spend more time and money on food, so it kinda ends up nearly neutralizing itself. At least with coffee you get magnesium and other things. I guess a use also is usually stimulants promote peristalsis, that might actually at the end of the day be their best use. In a sense also they can help prevent a helpless attitude from taking hold, like if youre going into hibernation mode and you take a stimulant, it'll kind of force you to eat, and do something, even if it is bounce of the walls back and forth, but at least your mentality doesn't fall into a weak state

the main point I was trying to make with the initial post though, is that whenever theres like...a foreign substance, or an environmental stimulant...basically a stress that FORCES you to increase metabolic rate...even if you are able to meet it with energy, it prevents damage, but in the mean time your mentality is kind of slightly or highly self centered...less harmonious, more single minded at tackling one particular thing...and if you are around other people, in a team atmosphere, or just in general...it makes the person more egotisical and less caring often times...in a certain sense, and if in such a mindset too frequently you can really build your whole aspirations and perspectives on life in terms of it being a competitive thing, and this is not a good thing

if you just have an excellent diet and lifestyle, and build up a powerful thyroid, and consistently take in plenty of energy, you wont be stimulated but you'll generally have plenty of energy, yet its not unstable and one directional. Your energy can be equivalently used to raise other peoples vibes, and you can relax and be receptive still...like your heart remains open, rather than tensing up which is what happens in the presence of forced stimulation

 

[Mittir]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/93673/ does anyone here take no stimulants at all? (coffee, chocolate, tobacco, others)

I drink 4-6 cups of sugared milk coffee,15-25 grams of instant coffee, that is about 500-800 mg of caffeine.
I do not get any kind of stimulating effect, none at all. It calms me down and keeps me energized and focused.
I drink one cup 2 hours before bed and another cup just before bed and it makes me sleepy.
I totally believe coffee is a super nutritious food and it works as stimulant for people who does not support
the extra metabolism with nutrients. Many studies make the same mistake in their experiments showing
how certain food and supplements causing stress response, ex: sugar, caffeine, fructose, PUFA free diet, Niacinamide etc.

On the other hand if i take one drop of nicotine from e liquid it keeps me restless and agitated for 3-4 hours.
I use quality of meditation as an indicator if i am extra stimulated through increased adrenaline and cortisol.
It disrupts my sleep and can not do any kind of meditation. A large part of nicotine is destroyed in smoking.
But, ingesting a drop of e liquid gives large amount of pure nicotine.
If i use smaller dose of nicotine then i do not feel stimulated, it gives me a pleasant feeling and alertness.

I believe natural human state is blissful, you can easily see that in healthy children.
If we remove offending things we naturally go back to that blissful state, there is nothing
to analyse or think. Food is a huge part of balance. My 4 year of nephew is a completely
different person depending on what he eats. He is a happy fun loving intelligent boy when
he is on dairy and fruit based diet. He adds starch and fried food he gets angry, agitated, emotional
and a very unpleasant person.His mother does not see it but i do. It is all a matter of seeing.
It is hard to see things clearly when stress hormones are high.

Edit: After posting i realized pboy posted another reply covering most things.
Natural healthy food can be stimulating for someone. Sugar, fructose, fruits, coconut oil etc
can energize someone to the point of restlessness.

 

[Kasper]

I'm not sure about all this competition is bad stuff. I'm really competitive, but I think in a playful and healthy way.

I like doing sports. I like to win. I like getting better in stuff. I think we all have some need to be special/be significant in some way. I think a lot of beautifull things can come from competition, as long as you don't take yourself too serious, and keep being respectful.

IMHO, the people the scream the loudest that they don't care about competition, are the most hypocritical. In reality, they have their own competition. Trying to compete with other people "not caring about competition...". I think that is really stupid.

 

[pboy]

its ultimately not good because people will save face in front of each other but then behind the scenes be ruthless...look at business. I always liked challenges in the sense of team vs environment, or team vs some obstacle, but not really people vs people...I like sports just for the fact it keeps people in physical shape but its annoying to play vs people who's end goal is to win even when bending the rules. Theres a big difference between trying to orchestrate amazing teamwork and witness that happening, to be a part of it, and then to just try to use physical force or a nudge or bump here and there kind of thing just for the sake of winning. If you play basketball or soccer enough you know what I mean. I basically just compete with myself vs the environmental challenges, which might include other people but that's only if the people are acting unrighteously and then become an obstacle in the path of doing whats right. Generally the more constipated people are, the more competitive in a forceful and needing to prove way they are. A victory for me might be simply in my home, no one knows, or sees, but I sleep at night happily. Most competitive people must attempt to display it and prove to others what they've done and in that sense its just a ranking ego thing, which when you translate it out has bad implications on the whole society and planet...and again, usually its tense and constipated people that need to do that

 

[Ipsissimus]

Well I used to start the day with a whole pot of coffee (12 cup) and then sip espresso throughout the day. It's what I needed during that time of my life. Now, even more than a quarter cup of regular coffee gives me bad anxiety. So I drink decaf when I want the taste of coffee.

 

[mbarvian]

Well I used to start the day with a whole pot of coffee (12 cup) and then sip espresso throughout the day. It's what I needed during that time of my life.

Yeah, this seems to be key. I'm doing much better with some caffeine now, probably because of the stress of work (deadline approaching) and other life stuff, whereas before even a few cups would give me bad anxiety/stress response.

For the sake of completeness, though, I wouldn't rule chocolate out. If quality of meditation is any guide (which seems to match pboy's state of mind), I had one of the best meditations of the last year after eating a whole bar this morning. Though again, maybe I needed it because the lack of sleep. Has anyone else had the same effect from coffee?

 

[artist]

I do feel that caffeine is a double edged sword. I have never been able to tolerate coffee or tea well (not sure exactly why) but with pure caffeine plus b vitamins I "can" consume a good 400mg a day, the question is if I should. I do feel that narcissistic sort of high from caffeine and I also experience the burnout after a few weeks of significant caffeine intake. I feel like I find myself seeking caffeine for the same kinda reason I'd seek out listening to 2 Chainz or something, it's a sort of aggressive, ego-protective state but very energizing and confident feeling and therein lies the appeal. My skin looks much duller and more irritated on caffeine, and my countenance overall seems different, I would go so far as to say less feminine. These are just my casual observations but the energy from caffeine is a very particular kind of energy for me.

 

[mbarvian]

I do feel that caffeine is a double edged sword. I have never been able to tolerate coffee or tea well (not sure exactly why) but with pure caffeine plus b vitamins I "can" consume a good 400mg a day, the question is if I should. I do feel that narcissistic sort of high from caffeine and I also experience the burnout after a few weeks of significant caffeine intake. I feel like I find myself seeking caffeine for the same kinda reason I'd seek out listening to 2 Chainz or something, it's a sort of aggressive, ego-protective state but very energizing and confident feeling and therein lies the appeal. My skin looks much duller and more irritated on caffeine, and my countenance overall seems different, I would go so far as to say less feminine. These are just my casual observations but the energy from caffeine is a very particular kind of energy for me.

The comparison to rap music is great; I'm starting to notice similar trends in my own listening habits.