Stopping Estrogen: Mission Impossible

[Peata]

I only measured estradiol (E2) blood level after experimenting with thyroid, and it did increase, although not above the medical range of normal.

I developed gynecomastia on several "anti-estrogen" supplements. Other people have experienced this too

I heard from a woman who tried progesterone, thyroid and aspirin (separately, not in combination), and she says they all caused her the typical estrogenic symptoms she is familiar with from her cycle. She got so bloated she couldn't fit into her jeans, she was emotional, would sleep all day, couldn't remove her wedding ring from her finger due to the increased water retention

Possible it's liver problems causing that, the supplement liberates estrogen from tissues but they recirculate instead of being excreted. Just a thought. It seems a lot of us have to work on liver before other things have helped us.

 

[Tarmander]

I know exactly what you are talking about OP. I have used DHEA, Pregnenolone, Thyroid, and then all the non hormonal supplements meant to lower estrogen. Like many other people, I feel good on them, especially initially, but over time would experience more bloating, gyno, and other things I associate with estrogen. Recently I have been using vitamin K topically (haidut's) to really good effect, and I feel it's combination with caffeine is stronger then any other anti estrogen therapy I have tried.

I have a couple theories that have helped me that I will share. First off, I have found that if you push your metabolism AT all to a place that is higher then you can handle, you will get estrogen symptoms. A lot of new peat people come on here and throw every metabolism boosting supplement they can at themselves and wonder why it isn't working. Raising metabolism is like a stair stepping process. As you slowly raise it, you need to focus quite a bit on lowering stress, keeping your activities levels constant, and in generally being hyper vigalent on how you are feeling. If you don't, and you push it, because it is so goooood for you just ask Peat and everyone else...well you're going to have a bad time. I would guess that most people having these estrogen symptoms have pushed their metabolism too far, even just locally in some part of their body.

Also, I have discovered for myself that keeping a clean liver and estrogen symptoms down is like a marathon. A lot of people talk about cleaning out the liver like it is a one time deal. Nope, it is a constant thing you do every day, and if you work too hard, get too stressed, don't get sunlight, etc, you back pedal. Cleaning out your liver is stressful...I can't emphasize that enough. It leads to better energy, but it can so easily add to your stress, and your fatigue.

Lastly, and this is just a guess, I think most people who come to peat and start eating more sugar cause themselves cellular dehydration. It is tough to see because you are drinking all this orange juice, but the edema and bloating, I believe, is a sign of dehydration at the cellular level. I have resolved a lot of bloating by adding a lot more salt to OJ and just the foods I eat in general. Especially if you lay out in the sun for a couple hours a day, you need a good dose of salt or you can easily start this cycle where you are unstressed and bloating goes away from the sun, and then your bloat right back up from lack of hydration.

Hope some of this is useful.

 

[Brian]

I know exactly what you are talking about OP. I have used DHEA, Pregnenolone, Thyroid, and then all the non hormonal supplements meant to lower estrogen. Like many other people, I feel good on them, especially initially, but over time would experience more bloating, gyno, and other things I associate with estrogen. Recently I have been using vitamin K topically (haidut's) to really good effect, and I feel it's combination with caffeine is stronger then any other anti estrogen therapy I have tried.

I have a couple theories that have helped me that I will share. First off, I have found that if you push your metabolism AT all to a place that is higher then you can handle, you will get estrogen symptoms. A lot of new peat people come on here and throw every metabolism boosting supplement they can at themselves and wonder why it isn't working. Raising metabolism is like a stair stepping process. As you slowly raise it, you need to focus quite a bit on lowering stress, keeping your activities levels constant, and in generally being hyper vigalent on how you are feeling. If you don't, and you push it, because it is so goooood for you just ask Peat and everyone else...well you're going to have a bad time. I would guess that most people having these estrogen symptoms have pushed their metabolism too far, even just locally in some part of their body.

Also, I have discovered for myself that keeping a clean liver and estrogen symptoms down is like a marathon. A lot of people talk about cleaning out the liver like it is a one time deal. Nope, it is a constant thing you do every day, and if you work too hard, get too stressed, don't get sunlight, etc, you back pedal. Cleaning out your liver is stressful...I can't emphasize that enough. It leads to better energy, but it can so easily add to your stress, and your fatigue.

Lastly, and this is just a guess, I think most people who come to peat and start eating more sugar cause themselves cellular dehydration. It is tough to see because you are drinking all this orange juice, but the edema and bloating, I believe, is a sign of dehydration at the cellular level. I have resolved a lot of bloating by adding a lot more salt to OJ and just the foods I eat in general. Especially if you lay out in the sun for a couple hours a day, you need a good dose of salt or you can easily start this cycle where you are unstressed and bloating goes away from the sun, and then your bloat right back up from lack of hydration.

Hope some of this is useful.

This is my main takeaway from years of observing the Peat community and my own experience as well. Almost all of the typical supplements used work by applying pressure for accelerated energy use, that's all well and good unless you have major brain/systemic serotonin, low dopamine, cortisol etc. The way I see it that is like pushing the accelerator to the floor, while having the the parking brake on and keeping the transmission in first gear. It wears you out, while getting you nowhere fast.

By far I think it is much more important to remove stress hormones than it is to attempt to directly speed up metabolism at least in the beginning. Maybe Peat emphasizes this somewhere, but it's unfortunate that it is so easily missed by those interested in his work.

What worked for me was to focus on starch/glucose, salt, magnesium, and sunlight as the main de-stressors until serotonin, dopamine, and cortisol stabilized. Then I could tolerate more metabolism boosting substances such as fructose, calcium, retinol, caffeine, protein, etc.

 

[Tarmander]

This is my main takeaway from years of observing the Peat community and my own experience as well. Almost all of the typical supplements used work by applying pressure for accelerated energy use, that's all well and good unless you have major brain/systemic serotonin, low dopamine, cortisol etc. The way I see it that is like pushing the accelerator to the floor, while having the the parking brake on and keeping the transmission in first gear. It wears you out, while getting you nowhere fast.

By far I think it is much more important to remove stress hormones than it is to speed up metabolism at least in the beginning. Maybe Peat emphasizes this somewhere, but it's unfortunate that it is so easily missed by those interested in his work.

What worked for me was to focus on starch/glucose, salt, magnesium, and sunlight as the main de-stressors until serotonin, dopamine, and cortisol stabilized. Then I could tolerate more metabolism boosting substances such as fructose, calcium, retinol, protein, etc.

Yeah I agree. I have also found the Sun to be one of my main destressors. It works so dang well. Although it did raise my stress levels a bit at first from misunderstanding the salt thing. There is such a level of subtlety to all this. Small things can make such a big difference when you pay attention. Just taking 15 minutes after breakfast to relax and lay down improves everything about my digestion, but this doesn't like knock you over the head or anything you know.

 

[Velve921]

Dookie,

I understand your frustration as so much literature and science indicates certain reactions; however, it is truly hard to dictate quantity and quality of food, supplement, and lifestyle choices in essence to see the quickest results. I posted my regimen in other threads but below should give you an idea of how hard I have to work for my health; after 2 years my excessive urination is still an issue. I have come to the conclusion based on my history that serious damage could have been done to my body. Sometimes it can take a lot of work and patience in order to see the results you desire.

Current Regimen:

Foods

Fruit
Fruit Juice
Raw cane sugar
Coconut oil
grass fed milk
Ice cream
Dark Chocolate
parmigiana reggiano cheese
Gelatin
Beef Liver (1x a week)
Eggs
1 raw carrot a day
Boiled mushrooms daily
Boiled bamboo shoots weekly
Coffee
Salt

I need to avoid all starch, phosphate, and PUFA as much as possible or else urination increases.

Supplementation

Red Light
Epsom Salt Baths
Blue Blocker sunglasses before bed
Baking Soda as needed in small amounts...good before workouts.
2 grains of NDT
20,000 IUS of Vitamin A (Retinol a day)
300mg of Niacinamide a day
600mg of Aspirin a day
50mg of Pregnenolone a day
2mg of Preg/DHEA supplement a day
3g of Taurine a day
2000 IUS of Vitamin D a day
2 mg of Vitamin K2 a day
8mg of Cyproheptadine before bed (Cypro and Benedryl made a huge difference with decreasing urination frequency at night)
Low dose Theanine before bed
Giving blood 4x a year now to decrease iron content.

Workouts

I've only been working out 1x a week for the past few months...urination decreased immensely once glycolytic activity was decreased. I lift 1x a week and do ELDOA exercises daily.

For the first year I was consuming 500-600g of sugar a day to keep temperature and heart rate up. I've now decreased carb consumption to 350-400 a day as blood sugar is improving. Elimination of starch, phosphate, and PUFA has been huge for me. Taurine and DHEA made the largest emotional improvements. Coffee + sugar + coconut oil + gelatin + Niacinamaide + Taurine has shown the best results increased feelings of well being.

 

[Peata]

Dookie,

I understand your frustration as so much literature and science indicates certain reactions; however, it is truly hard to dictate quantity and quality of food, supplement, and lifestyle choices in essence to see the quickest results. I posted my regimen in other threads but below should give you an idea of how hard I have to work for my health; after 2 years my excessive urination is still an issue. I have come to the conclusion based on my history that serious damage could have been done to my body. Sometimes it can take a lot of work and patience in order to see the results you desire.

Current Regimen:

Foods

Fruit
Fruit Juice
Raw cane sugar
Coconut oil
grass fed milk
Ice cream
Dark Chocolate
parmigiana reggiano cheese
Gelatin
Beef Liver (1x a week)
Eggs
1 raw carrot a day
Boiled mushrooms daily
Boiled bamboo shoots weekly
Coffee
Salt

I need to avoid all starch, phosphate, and PUFA as much as possible or else urination increases.

There was a post about Thiamine helping with kidneys.

 

[Velve921]

I actually started taking thiamine 2 weeks ago...sorry forgot to post that.

Specific dosages you read about?

 

[Peata]

I actually started taking thiamine 2 weeks ago...sorry forgot to post that.

Specific dosages you read about?

I don't want to derail this topic, so I'll bump some of those threads.

 

[moss]

This is my main takeaway from years of observing the Peat community and my own experience as well. Almost all of the typical supplements used work by applying pressure for accelerated energy use, that's all well and good unless you have major brain/systemic serotonin, low dopamine, cortisol etc. The way I see it that is like pushing the accelerator to the floor, while having the the parking brake on and keeping the transmission in first gear. It wears you out, while getting you nowhere fast.

By far I think it is much more important to remove stress hormones than it is to attempt to directly speed up metabolism at least in the beginning. Maybe Peat emphasizes this somewhere, but it's unfortunate that it is so easily missed by those interested in his work.

What worked for me was to focus on starch/glucose, salt, magnesium, and sunlight as the main de-stressors until serotonin, dopamine, and cortisol stabilized. Then I could tolerate more metabolism boosting substances such as fructose, calcium, retinol, caffeine, protein, etc.

Brian I agree and believe it is so crucial to remove stress hormones first, rather than ramping up metabolism with a mishmash of supps first up.

Metabolism is a process of changing, growing, using, converting and then changing again. Attempt too much, too quickly and you will wear yourself out and the body doesn’t know what the hell to do. This all takes time and applying allopathic thinking that this can be done in a few weeks, months and be sustaining is a bit deranged.

The liver is often the key to overall heath and in sorting through its chemical building blocks everyday I also think emotional nourishment and contentment play just as an important part of the chemical balance and assist in clearing a congested and/or sluggish liver.

Yeah I agree. I have also found the Sun to be one of my main destressors. It works so dang well. Although it did raise my stress levels a bit at first from misunderstanding the salt thing. There is such a level of subtlety to all this. Small things can make such a big difference when you pay attention. Just taking 15 minutes after breakfast to relax and lay down improves everything about my digestion, but this doesn't like knock you over the head or anything you know.

Yep the Sun is a massive de-stressor and I also find daily meditation/breathing practice also a big one for me, subtle yet powerful.

 

[dookie]

Dookie,

I understand your frustration as so much literature and science indicates certain reactions; however, it is truly hard to dictate quantity and quality of food, supplement, and lifestyle choices in essence to see the quickest results. I posted my regimen in other threads but below should give you an idea of how hard I have to work for my health; after 2 years my excessive urination is still an issue. I have come to the conclusion based on my history that serious damage could have been done to my body. Sometimes it can take a lot of work and patience in order to see the results you desire.

Current Regimen:

Foods

Fruit
Fruit Juice
Raw cane sugar
Coconut oil
grass fed milk
Ice cream
Dark Chocolate
parmigiana reggiano cheese
Gelatin
Beef Liver (1x a week)
Eggs
1 raw carrot a day
Boiled mushrooms daily
Boiled bamboo shoots weekly
Coffee
Salt

I need to avoid all starch, phosphate, and PUFA as much as possible or else urination increases.

Supplementation

Red Light
Epsom Salt Baths
Blue Blocker sunglasses before bed
Baking Soda as needed in small amounts...good before workouts.
2 grains of NDT
20,000 IUS of Vitamin A (Retinol a day)
300mg of Niacinamide a day
600mg of Aspirin a day
50mg of Pregnenolone a day
2mg of Preg/DHEA supplement a day
3g of Taurine a day
2000 IUS of Vitamin D a day
2 mg of Vitamin K2 a day
8mg of Cyproheptadine before bed (Cypro and Benedryl made a huge difference with decreasing urination frequency at night)
Low dose Theanine before bed
Giving blood 4x a year now to decrease iron content.

Workouts

I've only been working out 1x a week for the past few months...urination decreased immensely once glycolytic activity was decreased. I lift 1x a week and do ELDOA exercises daily.

For the first year I was consuming 500-600g of sugar a day to keep temperature and heart rate up. I've now decreased carb consumption to 350-400 a day as blood sugar is improving. Elimination of starch, phosphate, and PUFA has been huge for me. Taurine and DHEA made the largest emotional improvements. Coffee + sugar + coconut oil + gelatin + Niacinamaide + Taurine has shown the best results increased feelings of well being.

Some of the foods, and most of the supplements that you mention, would make me swell up and get typical estrogen symptoms, even in lower dosages of what you are describing.

 

[dookie]

I have been on Testosterone Replacement both self treated and physician supervised for 13 years. I have used Arimidex (Anastrozole and 2 other AI's), What I have found is that once I cleaned up my liver with Phase 1 and 2 needed supplementation and stopped alcohol I could use only Calcium D Glucarate (500mg x 3) 2X per week and 1 I3C capsule to control the E2. I have it dialed in between 20-30ng.dl and all is well in the land and NO arimidex anymore. Just wanted to share...

hey thanks for these insights. How did you clean up your liver, what supplements did you use?

Did you experience any side-effects from arimidex, and does it immediately lower estrogen, like can you notice a difference within a few hours?

And is calcium glucarate anywhere near as powerful as arimidex?

 

[Orion]

This is my main takeaway from years of observing the Peat community and my own experience as well. Almost all of the typical supplements used work by applying pressure for accelerated energy use, that's all well and good unless you have major brain/systemic serotonin, low dopamine, cortisol etc. The way I see it that is like pushing the accelerator to the floor, while having the the parking brake on and keeping the transmission in first gear. It wears you out, while getting you nowhere fast.

By far I think it is much more important to remove stress hormones than it is to attempt to directly speed up metabolism at least in the beginning. Maybe Peat emphasizes this somewhere, but it's unfortunate that it is so easily missed by those interested in his work.

What worked for me was to focus on starch/glucose, salt, magnesium, and sunlight as the main de-stressors until serotonin, dopamine, and cortisol stabilized. Then I could tolerate more metabolism boosting substances such as fructose, calcium, retinol, caffeine, protein, etc.

What type of magnesium did you use and how much? Oral and transdermal?

 

[DaveFoster]

Peat recommends against pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitors, as they can cause a lot of side effects.

You know what has even more side effects?

 

[Brian]

What type of magnesium did you use and how much? Oral and transdermal?

Any type or amount seems to work as long as I keep my body temperature up and consistently get morning sun and as much as possible according to my schedule for the rest of the day. Magnesium absorption and retention seems to have a lot do with having enough progesterone, which daylight is one major way that stimulates its production. In the summer I notice it only takes very small amounts to feel "topped off." When I can taste it in my saliva.

My favorite types are magnesium glycinate, sulfate of chloride for baths or spray, and I also make my own 33% magnesium chloride solution that I only take a few drops of anymore, because my current thyroid and progesterone levels allow me to retain a lot more of what I ingest.

 

[m_arch]

I don't know about others but consuming 3000 calories a day (with lots of milk / OJ) has increased my weight maybe 5kg so far in about a month or so.
An above poster said more fat cells = more estrogen.

Perhaps a lot of peoples issues are because they are gaining weight while peating (which I hear is very common, at least initially). Peats ideas seem very long-term focused.

 

[SQu]

I struggle too. There are some great ideas here most of which already help me a lot. Some things that I find particularly helpful are: good bowel function with the aid of cascara in my case; liver support like daily eggs; gelatin; of course progesterone; magnesium chloride; and one cup of tea in the afternoon.

 

[BobbyDukes]

Lowering stress hormones without adequate thyroid is going to feel horrible. They are a compensatory mechanism because your thyroid is screwed. So I actually don't agree that slowly slowly push thyroid up, and lower stress hormones as much as you can, and all will be ok. That's why many here supplement thyroid itself.

There are so many things that can suppress the thyroid; and if you do lots of Peat things to lower your stress hormones, and you're freezing cold and depressed, why is that? You can try and find out what might be suppressing it, or you can take thyroid, and hope that things get better over time.

 

[Orion]

Any type or amount seems to work as long as I keep my body temperature up and consistently get morning sun and as much as possible according to my schedule for the rest of the day. Magnesium absorption and retention seems to have a lot do with having enough progesterone, which daylight is one major way that stimulates its production. In the summer I notice it only takes very small amounts to feel "topped off." When I can taste it in my saliva.

My favorite types are magnesium glycinate, sulfate of chloride for baths or spray, and I also make my own 33% magnesium chloride solution that I only take a few drops of anymore, because my current thyroid and progesterone levels allow me to retain a lot more of what I ingest.

Thanks for the feedback. I have been using the chloride spray daily all over for about 8months now. I have found that orally, mag glycinate more than 200mg at a time would cause digestion distress. Been dosing 180mg in the morning and evening for about 8months. I also make and use the mag bicarb water every day.

Going to test higher oral dose this week and see how the stomach reacts. I believe my progesterone levels and thyroids levels should be better then 8 months ago. Having an outdoor job would be beneficial, not the case with me. Winter and heat lamps for now.

 

[Brian]

Thanks for the feedback. I have been using the chloride spray daily all over for about 8months now. I have found that orally, mag glycinate more than 200mg at a time would cause digestion distress. Been dosing 180mg in the morning and evening for about 8months. I also make and use the mag bicarb water every day.

Going to test higher oral dose this week and see how the stomach reacts. I believe my progesterone levels and thyroids levels should be better then 8 months ago. Having an outdoor job would be beneficial, not the case with me. Winter and heat lamps for now.

More magnesium isn't necessarily better. 400mg per day from a supplement should be plenty, something else must be going on. Even in the winter I still think it's beneficial to go outside for a little bit after the sun rises even if it is cloudy. My suspicions is wide open views help lower cortisol and serotonin somehow, by giving you a feeling of freedom, rather than the boxed in feeling that a small room can give you.

I also think in some cases high calcium intake can block magnesium absorption and some people are better off lowering their calcium intake quite a bit until their intracellular magnesium has become stable. I had to do this for awhile, but now I can tolerate and benefit from much high amounts of calcium.

 

[Orion]

More magnesium isn't necessarily better. 400mg per day from a supplement should be plenty, something else must be going on. Even in the winter I still think it's beneficial to go outside for a little bit after the sun rises even if it is cloudy. My suspicions is wide open views help lower cortisol and serotonin somehow, by giving you a feeling of freedom, rather than the boxed in feeling that a small room can give you.

I also think in some cases high calcium intake can block magnesium absorption and some people are better off lowering their calcium intake quite a bit until their intracellular magnesium has become stable. I had to do this for awhile, but now I can tolerate and benefit from much high amounts of calcium.

I am keeping calcium quite low as well and no vit D supps, hair mineral analysis pointed to this. Vitamin A is supposed to help draw out the calcium, but seems to make my acne worse. Been using very small amounts. Will try 10,000iu dermal again this week, should help with opposing estrogen and stress as well. I am taking vitamin K, which seems to be making my very noisy knee joints quiet right down and feel stronger. So I believe calcium is moving in the right direction. I assume I most likely had lots of soft tissue and all around high calcium issues.

What are your thoughts on vit A and K? Did you had any skin issues to heal?