Stress responses to caffeine/thyroid

[TheAnarchist]

I understand that people with fatty liver or other liver dysfunction can have stress responses to caffeine and thyroid. I know @haidut spoke about this and there is probably an adjustment period that I need, but my question is if the stress response to caffeine can be so extreme that it cause muscle loss? I seem to be getting fatter and weaker. This seems to happen every time I incorporate caffeine. Will this effect stop if I keep trying to lean out my liver and top off my glycogen stores. Also it also seems to make me almost hypersexual and unable to focus. This is really weird because coffee used to make me feel happy and energetic when I was younger and stimulant medication helped me focus. For reference points I am 29 years old. In my mid twenties I couldn’t consume a glass of orange juice without having a full blown panic attack and cold hands/feet. Now I can consume a decent amount of sugar and feel okay. Will the muscle loss eventually stop?

 

[Ismail]

I know @haidut spoke about this

Where did he speak about this? Genuinely asking, was it a YouTube interview/video or is there a specific post on this forum you are talking about? Thanks.

 

[TheAnarchist]

Where did he speak about this? Genuinely asking, was it a YouTube interview/video or is there a specific post on this forum you are talking about? Thanks.

It’s a post on this forum where he speaks about it. Just type caffeine tolerance into the search bar, and there is a thread where Haidut says full tolerance is achieved by some in as little as 4 days. The adaption period is thought to be leaning of the liver and increased glycogen stores. As of writing this reply I am actually feeling better with caffeine already. Adding in aspirin and drinking lots of fruit juice is helping. I have tried to use caffeine therapeutically for my slow liver function before, but quit after just a few days because of how terrible it made me feel. I clearIy had horrendous liver function at the time. I suppose if I persevere for a couple weeks I may actually achieve my aims of increasing liver glycogen capacity. My adaption period may simply be much longer than most people as I did have a very low carb high fat diet in my early 20s. I’ll keep you update on my progress with this experiment.

 

[Connor888]

It’s a post on this forum where he speaks about it. Just type caffeine tolerance into the search bar, and there is a thread where Haidut says full tolerance is achieved by some in as little as 4 days. The adaption period is thought to be leaning of the liver and increased glycogen stores. As of writing this reply I am actually feeling better with caffeine already. Adding in aspirin and drinking lots of fruit juice is helping. I have tried to use caffeine therapeutically for my slow liver function before, but quit after just a few days because of how terrible it made me feel. I clearIy had horrendous liver function at the time. I suppose if I persevere for a couple weeks I may actually achieve my aims of increasing liver glycogen capacity. My adaption period may simply be much longer than most people as I did have a very low carb high fat diet in my early 20s. I’ll keep you update on my progress with this experiment.

Sorry if I missed it. But could you explain roughly how fatty liver can cause someone to be sensitive to caffeine? I ask because I have a fatty liver. And i drank a cup of joe the other day , and i felt like i was dying lol. I think it was an adrenalin rush, because i felt great and deathly awful at the same time. I tried another cup yesterday and i was fine at first, but then have felt tired all of today, and just awful.

 

[TheAnarchist]

Sure

Sorry if I missed it. But could you explain roughly how fatty liver can cause someone to be sensitive to caffeine? I ask because I have a fatty liver. And i drank a cup of joe the other day , and i felt like i was dying lol. I think it was an adrenalin rush, because i felt great and deathly awful at the same time. I tried another cup yesterday and i was fine at first, but then have felt tired all of today, and just awful.

Sure bro. If you have fatty liver then your ability to store glycogen is impaired. Fatty acids are literally blocking insulin from pushing glucose into the cells. The degree to which it is impaired varies from case to case, however some fructose can still be absorbed by the liver since it does not require insulin to be absorbed. The more lipids you free up from the liver the more its glycogen storage will expand. Both caffeine and thyroid will increase energy expenditure and if the body perceives insufficient energy supply (low liver glycogen) to meet the energetic demand it will start running on cortisol, adrenaline and free fatty acids. The stress metabolism.

 

[Connor888]

Sure

Sure bro. If you have fatty liver then your ability to store glycogen is impaired. Fatty acids are literally blocking insulin from pushing glucose into the cells. The degree to which it is impaired varies from case to case, however some fructose can still be absorbed by the liver since it does not require insulin to be absorbed. The more lipids you free up from the liver the more its glycogen storage will expand. Both caffeine and thyroid will increase energy expenditure and if the body perceives insufficient energy supply (low liver glycogen) to meet the energetic demand it will start running on cortisol, adrenaline and free fatty acids. The stress metabolism.

Thanks! In that case, would the best course of action be to reduce the fatty liver before starting thyroid? If so I would love to know how to do that. I'm trying to lose weight but it does not want to come off. I know 100% I have issues storing sugar because I have a fasted blood glucose in the hypoglycemia range!

 

[Ismail]

It’s a post on this forum where he speaks about it. Just type caffeine tolerance into the search bar, and there is a thread where Haidut says full tolerance is achieved by some in as little as 4 days. The adaption period is thought to be leaning of the liver and increased glycogen stores. As of writing this reply I am actually feeling better with caffeine already. Adding in aspirin and drinking lots of fruit juice is helping. I have tried to use caffeine therapeutically for my slow liver function before, but quit after just a few days because of how terrible it made me feel. I clearIy had horrendous liver function at the time. I suppose if I persevere for a couple weeks I may actually achieve my aims of increasing liver glycogen capacity. My adaption period may simply be much longer than most people as I did have a very low carb high fat diet in my early 20s. I’ll keep you update on my progress with this experiment.

Amazing, thank you so much! Genuinely much appreciated.

Today is my second day of having one cup of coffee before 12pm - I get quite stressed with caffeine so try to avoid at all costs - similar to what you said, it makes me feel really poop!

After having read this thread, I thought I’d give it a try again, yesterday and today - I had black coffee with a heaped tablespoon of Gelatin and a tablespoon of honey - and I felt/feel really good and actually motivated to get things done and ignore my procrastination!?

Not sure if the gelatin is somehow helping with the negative effects of the coffee/caffeine, having said that I did have it after a meal though.

How much aspirin do you take? Do you take it after a meal? In hot water? With or without bicarbonate and/or glycine?

What benefits have you noticed with the aspirin?

Thank you again.

Yes please do keep us updated

 

[TheAnarchist]

Thanks! In that case, would the best course of action be to reduce the fatty liver before starting thyroid? If so I would love to know how to do that. I'm trying to lose weight but it does not want to come off. I know 100% I have issues storing sugar because I have a fasted blood glucose in the hypoglycemia range!

I’m not sure of the best course of action for you, as the nuances of your health may be different than mine but protein, choline (think eggs and liver) and low fat intake are all helpful for fatty liver. If the research is correct then thyroid or caffeine should both be effective for leaning out the liver if one perseveres long enough. Starting low and slow with caffeine/thyroid doses and slowly increasing them over time as glycogen stores increase seems the best bet to me. I’m still learning about this as well, it’s experimental for me. It is going well though.

 

[TheAnarchist]

Amazing, thank you so much! Genuinely much appreciated.

Today is my second day of having one cup of coffee before 12pm - I get quite stressed with caffeine so try to avoid at all costs - similar to what you said, it makes me feel really poop!

After having read this thread, I thought I’d give it a try again, yesterday and today - I had black coffee with a heaped tablespoon of Gelatin and a tablespoon of honey - and I felt/feel really good and actually motivated to get things done and ignore my procrastination!?

Not sure if the gelatin is somehow helping with the negative effects of the coffee/caffeine, having said that I did have it after a meal though.

How much aspirin do you take? Do you take it after a meal? In hot water? With or without bicarbonate and/or glycine?

What benefits have you noticed with the aspirin?

Thank you again.

Yes please do keep us updated

Today is day 6 of the experiment for me. I have had 1 8 oz cup of drip coffee each morning so far, so about 100 mg of caffeine. My tolerance has definitely gone up and I’m starting to feel almost good on it. So much so that I increased my dose to about 215 mg caffeine by adding in a 12 oz RedBull. I felt I tiny bit sleepy after that but not in a bad way and not stressed. I have been vigilant about making sure my limited glycogen stores have been topped off with sugar often to resist stress. I have been taking 325 mg of aspirin for the last 3 days, just popping a Bayer tablet with eggs and orange juice for breakfast. It definitely seems to be helping my body use sugar properly and to meet the increased energy demands of caffeine use. As for the muscle loss I faced in the past, that seems to be stabilizing after the first few days. I just bench pressed 245 lbs for 4 reps the other day and my personal record was 265 for 2, so I’m not far off from my peak strength. I’ll see how I do on my next workout. I’ll keep updating you guys.

 

[marko9437]

Today is my second day of having one cup of coffee before 12pm - I get quite stressed with caffeine so try to avoid at all costs - similar to what you said, it makes me feel really poop!

Caffeine is not just coffee. Did you ever try caffeine via tea, yerba mate, or caffeine pill?

 

[Ismail]

Today is day 6 of the experiment for me. I have had 1 8 oz cup of drip coffee each morning so far, so about 100 mg of caffeine. My tolerance has definitely gone up and I’m starting to feel almost good on it. So much so that I increased my dose to about 215 mg caffeine by adding in a 12 oz RedBull. I felt I tiny bit sleepy after that but not in a bad way and not stressed. I have been vigilant about making sure my limited glycogen stores have been topped off with sugar often to resist stress. I have been taking 325 mg of aspirin for the last 3 days, just popping a Bayer tablet with eggs and orange juice for breakfast. It definitely seems to be helping my body use sugar properly and to meet the increased energy demands of caffeine use. As for the muscle loss I faced in the past, that seems to be stabilizing after the first few days. I just bench pressed 245 lbs for 4 reps the other day and my personal record was 265 for 2, so I’m not far off from my peak strength. I’ll see how I do on my next workout. I’ll keep updating you guys.

Amazing to hear, very happy for you, I hope it continues to progress positively

I managed to exercise for the first time in a while too, which was surprising for me as I haven’t trained in about a year now, before that I was as the gym consistently 2-3 times a week.

 

[Ismail]

Caffeine is not just coffee. Did you ever try caffeine via tea, yerba mate, or caffeine pill?

Yes I have tried caffeine via tea, caffeine powder, red bull and monster - all had very negative effects on me. Felt extremely stressed.

 

[TheAnarchist]

Amazing to hear, very happy for you, I hope it continues to progress positively

I managed to exercise for the first time in a while too, which was surprising for me as I haven’t trained in about a year now, before that I was as the gym consistently 2-3 times a week.

That’s great that you are starting to train again. The desire to work out can often be an indicator healthy energy levels. Just remember that anaerobic exercise is a lot healthier than aerobic.

 

[TheAnarchist]

That’s great that you are starting to train again. The desire to work out can often be an indicator healthy energy levels. Just remember that anaerobic exercise is a lot healthier than aerobic.

So today is day 9 and I’m starting to feel different. I overdid my dosage a little a couple days ago but overall I’m starting to feel pretty good. I’m starting to feel more sharp emotion which is interesting. I’ve also increased my carbohydrate intake to about 400 grams per day and I’m definitely getting slightly leaner and stronger in the gym. My caffeine dose is about 300 mg per day now. I can only imagine my liver function has improved to have gotten to this point. I’m not sure I want to use too much more than 300 mg per day until I wait a while. The experiment however will continue.

 

[Ismail]

That’s great that you are starting to train again. The desire to work out can often be an indicator healthy energy levels. Just remember that anaerobic exercise is a lot healthier than aerobic.

Yes I hope it’s a positive sign

I definitely stick to anaerobic exercise for sure

Thanks for the reminder nevertheless, much appreciated.

 

[Ismail]

Y

So today is day 9 and I’m starting to feel different. I overdid my dosage a little a couple days ago but overall I’m starting to feel pretty good. I’m starting to feel more sharp emotion which is interesting. I’ve also increased my carbohydrate intake to about 400 grams per day and I’m definitely getting slightly leaner and stronger in the gym. My caffeine dose is about 300 mg per day now. I can only imagine my liver function has improved to have gotten to this point. I’m not sure I want to use too much more than 300 mg per day until I wait a while. The experiment however will continue.

yeh I think I made that mistake today too, had 2 cups of coffee instead of one, I feel okayish, but have a slight headache/tired feeling going on. Will revert back to 1 cup before 12pm.

 

[TheAnarchist]

Y

yeh I think I made that mistake today too, had 2 cups of coffee instead of one, I feel okayish, but have a slight headache/tired feeling going on. Will revert back to 1 cup before 12pm.

Any updates on how you’re feeling with your daily caffeine intake? I have recently found that taking a day or two off and then resuming has made me feel pretty good. I recently took 2 days off and then resumed with 200 mg and felt very focused and non stressed. I think it is just because it can be so energetically demanding, the liver needs time to replenish glycogen and catch up as a sluggish liver metabolizes caffeine slowly.

 

[Kyle970]

Have gotten different stress reactions with several coffee brands, all organic. Adding glycine as suggested in a thread has definitely smoothed things out.

 

[Ismail]

Any updates on how you’re feeling with your daily caffeine intake? I have recently found that taking a day or two off and then resuming has made me feel pretty good. I recently took 2 days off and then resumed with 200 mg and felt very focused and non stressed. I think it is just because it can be so energetically demanding, the liver needs time to replenish glycogen and catch up as a sluggish liver metabolizes caffeine slowly.

I’ve continued with the daily caffeine intake, upped it to at least 2 cups of coffee, even 3 on some days, always making sure I eat something just before or with the actual coffee. Trying to make sure I have my last cup at least 9-10hrs before I sleep. And I’ve also been having 200mg of theanine (taken sublingually - leave it under my tongue for about 30 seconds to a minute at most) just before having the coffee.

I feel quite good having it now, my primary reason for having coffee is for liver function, but I have noticed I do look forward to it. I’m having plain black powdered coffee, French pressed (if that’s even the correct way of saying it), always with 20g of gelatine for the first cup and sometimes adding a tablespoon of honey or brown sugar.

I’m tempted to make it how Dr Peat and Danny have spoken of, ie drip coffee, gradually increasing the temperature to extract the different components/flavours, but need to get myself the drip coffee equipment - I wonder if this approach of using different temperature water makes it more “tasty” and hence palatable etc., any ideas or experience on this?
I went to a specialist coffee shop/cafe in Sweden yesterday, and they made me an amazing cup of special drip coffee, was amazingly yummy, especially with an organic cake.

I’m pretty sure the actual quality of the coffee can have a big effect on my reaction and stress response too - will know once I start trying other beans and brands etc. However the reason I say this is because I’ve been to a speciality coffee shop in London, where they supposedly use high quality beans and proper geek out about coffee, I had a mocha last year and I didn’t have any stressful reaction to the caffeine, which was a massive surprise to me at the time.

I’ve also made sure to increase my carb intake as per your suggestion before, I think this has def made a huge difference too, especially since the coffee requires the body to have “fuel”, and with a sluggish liver the glycogen storage “mechanism” is a little sub-optimal (from my limited understanding), hope that makes sense @TheAnarchist

 

[Ismail]

Have gotten different stress reactions with several coffee brands, all organic. Adding glycine as suggested in a thread has definitely smoothed things out.

Interesting, how much glycine do you have?
Do you mix it with the coffee or take it separately?