VoS Uncoupling Thread

[superhuman]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Thanx. How much is 0.5 grain in terms of mcg T3 and T4

 

[loess]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Thanks; it's a tough call. I'd definitely like to avoid silica, but I'm also not enthused about the possible sources of aluminum and the parabens in Thyroid-S. I suppose these are not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things though.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Thanx. How much is 0.5 grain in terms of mcg T3 and T4

Thyroid-S Content in one tablet (60 mg thyroid extract): approximately 38 mcg Levothyroxine (T4) and 9 mcg Liothyronine (T3)

So half of the tablet would be about half of that, approximately 19 mcg Levothyroxine (T4) and 4.5 mcg Liothyronine (T3)

 

[Filip1993]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

"If I'm understanding uncoupling properly, it essentially causes cells to burn energy for heat instead of productive ATP generation. This seems to be correlated with reduced obesity (that's logical) and extended life span. However, shouldn't uncoupling be harmful to health because it reduces the amount of ATP being generated?"

This question was asked over at peatarian. What do you guys think about it? I think it makes sense.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

"If I'm understanding uncoupling properly, it essentially causes cells to burn energy for heat instead of productive ATP generation. This seems to be correlated with reduced obesity (that's logical) and extended life span. However, shouldn't uncoupling be harmful to health because it reduces the amount of ATP being generated?"

This question was asked over at peatarian. What do you guys think about it? I think it makes sense.

It is induced by ATP plentiness.

 

[Jennifer]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Good question, Filip!

I keep thinking about this email exchange:

Lucy wrote:
Peat told me this in regards to thyroid causing a high metabolic rate:

Ray Peat wrote:
"About your high metabolic rate and high temperature: In my teens and twenties, I needed about 8000 calories per day when I was physically active, about 4000 to 5000 when I was sedentary, but after I took thyroid, I needed only about half as many calories. Thyroid is the basic regulator of blood glucose, and it causes it to be fully oxidized for energy, so that it produces ATP efficiently, on relatively few calories. If blood glucose falls, because it's being used very quickly, the body responds with stress hormones, including glucagon, adrenalin, and cortisol. They cause fat and protein to be burned for energy, while in hypothyroidism, glucose can still be used inefficiently for glycolysis, producing lactic acid, displacing bicarbonate and carbon dioxide. This causes mineral imbalances, with effects including cramps and nerve-muscle tension, which produce heat and waste energy. When you first start taking thyroid again, your tissues will need some extra magnesium, during the time when the dose is increasing, and when the mineral balance is restored your temperature and metabolic rate might decrease a little. Orange juice, milk, and coffee are good for the main minerals, while salting your food to taste."

Ray Peat wrote:
"Supplementing thyroid can sometimes reduce the rate of metabolism, by allowing cells to retain enough magnesium, which stabilizes ATP."

I know I'm probably looking at this too simplistically, but is it really a good thing if our calorie requirements keep going up to the point that we need to take in a fairly crazy amount?

The last time I needed huge amounts of calories to quell my appetite, I was wasting away.

 

[lindsay]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

I don't want to take the time to read through all the pages on here, but another issue with regards to weight gain (especially around the mid-section) is a result of estrogen. Even taking Cynoplus (one to two grains), I still gained fat around my mid-section and have trouble keeping estrogen levels at a reasonable place - this can happen with men and women, but of course is more prevalent among women. This is where liver health is very important and one of the reasons why RP stresses adequate protein, which is something I struggle with, having been vegetarian/vegan for years.

But last month, I had to take an antibiotic following appendicitis and I notice my midsection slimmed down quite a bit and I also lost some of the fat on my thighs - this despite the stress hormones from surgery & a cat scan. For a myriad of reasons, I'm inclined to think that bad digestion is the biggest reason for estrogen dominance and fat gain. The endotoxin puts a big burden on the liver and keeps it from being able to do it's job.

I reluctantly decided to eliminate all starches (except an occasional piece of sourdough or matzo) and have been trying to up my protein intake. So far, I've managed to keep the midsection weight off despite eating a lot of hard cheese and eggs, as well as some full fat milk. My sugar levels are eating at cravings. In the future, I plan to try a garlic treatment to help work as a natural antibiotic because I think this is an important part of the process of detoxing the liver - cleaning out the bowel thoroughly. Something even antibiotics can't do. And garlic is also helpful for preventing free radical damage. It doesn't sound like a fun process, but then neither is trying to work this all out like a mad scientist.

So, these are my thoughts. I think digestive health is the first step to weight loss and that even thyroid and/or sugar will not benefit digestion to the level it should be at, at least not in my experience. Other things that seem to help are getting the fat soluble vitamins and topically applying them to problem spots as well - I've had some good effects with vitamin E applied to the abdomen. I would try it with progesterone, but it's so pricey. However, it might be the best use for it. Aspirin never did much for me.

 

[Filip1993]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

@Jennifer If you have access to large quantities of high quality food it's probably safe to have a very high metabolic rate. It's going to be very expensive and time consuming though. Sometimes I feel drained when I rev up my metabolism too much.

 

[Jennifer]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

@Jennifer If you have access to large quantities of high quality food it's probably safe to have a very high metabolic rate. It's going to be very expensive and time consuming though. Sometimes I feel drained when I rev up my metabolism too much.

Yeah, that's true! I tend to forget the fact that I wasted away because I was on that horrible high calorie fruitarian diet.

 

[Lin]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Hey Vos--about all that aspirin you are taking, and advising others to take... Someone asked if you were also taking Vitamin K to prevent bleeding. You said-

"I do supplement Vitamin E, D, K (haidut's stuff is good, or see toxinless.com for sources), and niacinamide, everything in small doses, every few hours, or as often as it's practical."

Please note that "haidut's stuff" contains only vitamin K2, which is the form that helps with bone building. It does NOT contain vitamin K1, which is the form that helps with blood clotting. Of course, you may be getting K1 from some other source, like kale...

 

[superhuman]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Lin: that is not true, vit K2 is what you want when you take alot of aspirin. Aspirin thins out the blood so you would never have problems with blood clotting when u take to much aspirin :P

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

"If I'm understanding uncoupling properly, it essentially causes cells to burn energy for heat instead of productive ATP generation. This seems to be correlated with reduced obesity (that's logical) and extended life span. However, shouldn't uncoupling be harmful to health because it reduces the amount of ATP being generated?"

This question was asked over at peatarian. What do you guys think about it? I think it makes sense.

I know I have sometimes chided the folks at peatarian for not having read Peat's work. Part of me wonders if some of them are not trolls, paid to mislead the public so that industrial plundering and degradation can continue unabated.

But then I remember milklove's phrase, "There are no bad people, only people with bad metabolisms." And I smile.

Whenever you are assailed by self-proclaimed experts brandishing studies that they claim somehow refute Peat's careful, amply supported biophysics, here's something I do. Go to http://www.toxinless.com/peat/search and search for the term at issue.

For example, search for "uncoupling".
What do you see? Please, feel free to search, I'll wait.

[spoil]Do you see about 17 results?[/spoil]

Done? Ok, here's the next.
[spoil]Next, I click on a result of my choice and I open it, and when the result opens I type "control F" for find and here, I would type "uncoupl" to find the results in that article for "uncouple", "uncoupled", "uncoupling".[/spoil]
Now, what do you see? Please feel free to look and read the results, I'll wait!

Now, when you're done looking and reading, can you please try to post your thoughts? How would you argue for Peat? What are some quotes from Peat? What does he say is the benefit of uncoupling? What does he say it does for lactic acid? Why does Peat say carbon dioxide is beneficial?

Or anything else you 'd like to post that you thought was interesting? I really think you'll be doing all of us a favor.

Thanks!!!

 

[Filip1993]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

I'm not an expert on the subject, hence my question. Since I don't have much time for researching myself I like to ask questions and try other peoples ideas. I just wanted to know if being "too uncoupled" might have some negative effects because of the production of heat instead of ATP. I'm not trying to argue against Peat, I'm just interested. (English is not my native language so please ignore any spelling mistakes etc.).

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

I'm not an expert on the subject, hence my question. Since I don't have much time for researching myself I like to ask questions and try other peoples ideas. I just wanted to know if being "too uncoupled" might have some negative effects because of the production of heat instead of ATP. I'm not trying to argue against Peat, I'm just interested. (English is not my native language so please ignore any spelling mistakes etc.).

Yes, sorry! I know that! Didn't mean to point at you, but just the folks at peatarian who might prefer to call themselves, anti-peatarian.com.

Your English is perfect AFAIK.

Hoping we'll see some answers to your question soon, below....

 

[Lin]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

The thing that made me think of this--I take "haidut's stuff." I also take 1 aspirin a day (just drinking the water of a 325 mg tablet.) Yesterday I had a shot (injection). Well the blood was running down my arm, and the Doc asked if I was taking blood thinners. I haven't been very good about eating my greens lately. LOL

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

@filip1993, Sure that is possible. It is all about balance.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

@filip1993, Sure that is possible. It is all about balance.

Thanks! Any Peat quotes for that? When or at what level does Peat say uncoupling is harmful? Or does he?

Why does Peat think it is not harmful, even if it seems to uncouple from ATP production? (which in fairness, was filip's question.)

 

[Suikerbuik]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Peat isn't saying much about uncoupling in specific. The system is too variable to go into specific details, hence Peat doesn't I guess. However Peat written a lot about the importance of ATP with much more context. ATP production depends of the proton gradient. As long as this is sufficient, the uncoupling isn't lowering ATP.

 

[visionofstrength]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

Peat isn't saying much about uncoupling in specific. The system is too variable to go into specific details, hence Peat doesn't I guess. However Peat written a lot about the importance of ATP with much more context. ATP production depends of the proton gradient. As long as this is sufficient, the uncoupling isn't lowering ATP.

Awesome! So it seems you are agreeing with S_S's short answer in his post above?

It is induced by ATP plentiness.

But you are thinking the 17 results for "uncoupling" in the toxinless search are not saying much about this uncoupling in specific. OK, fair enough!

Anyone else?

 

[pboy]

Re: The Weight-Loss Miracle Discovered by Ray Peat

I wonder if Co2 is still produced during uncoupling metabolism...that could be a benefit. I remember Peat saying kids who had a wastefully fast metabolism could bounce back from stress and heal faster...due to the metabolism that was 'wasteful'. I take that to mean burning for heat beyond ATP needs

if you were in a cold climate it would obviously be good for heat...I think that's what brown fat is for

I don't have details of this