Improving Liver Function Before Going Full Peat? Dealing With Abdominal Fat

visionofstrength · Jan 20, 2015

tara said:
If you understand, as you say above, that you are sometimes wrong, and as you have said elsewhere, that you have limited understanding of biochemistry etc, then please exercise some restraint, and replace 'Peat thinks' and 'Peat feels' in front of your thoughts with 'I think' , and stop referring misleadingly to 'the RDAs' all over the forum. It is not 'being nice' or in my book to continue with these phrases.

My view is that whenever I say "Peat thinks" or "Peat feels", what follows should be a very close paraphrase of what Peat has actually said, which one can verify with a quick search of toxinless. If it comes from his newsletters or books I have access to but not available on toxinless, I try to say that.

On the other hand, if someone knows a quote from Peat that contradicts what I've said, it should be easy enough to call it up in the search and point it out to me, so I can learn. That is the nature of discourse. We don't throw stones at someone who interprets Blake, saying "Blake thinks" and "Blake feels". It's implicit that Blake's work, like Peat's, has many layers of meaning.

Like Blake, perhaps intentionally, Peat writes in a style that is challenging, and the substance of what he writes departs from, and really entirely obliterates the core of biology and molecular biology taught in university. I've spent countless hours enjoyably studying it. But if anyone thinks I have failed to understand it, please let me know. That's why we're here.

And I do urge a disclaimer that Ray Peat is not affiliated with this forum in any way, which I think would be a sign of respect for the man and his work.

visionofstrength · Jan 20, 2015

Spondive said:
I am trying to figure out why you guys are saying that VoS is not in line with Peat or misinterpreting etc.? He is suggesting all the the things Peat says in his writings and talks. High protein low PUFA lower fat, high sugar, progesterone, T3, low amounts of dhea etc etc.

What specifically are you at odds with? Just for my own interest

Yes, that's really all I ask, too: what specifically are you at odds with, with citations to Peat's work, so that, whenever I'm wrong, I can simply fix it.

visionofstrength · Jan 20, 2015

moss said:
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"....

Which he may adhere to, yet disown,
For reasons to himself best known.

cantstoppeating · Jan 20, 2015

visionofstrength said:
tara said:

If you understand, as you say above, that you are sometimes wrong, and as you have said elsewhere, that you have limited understanding of biochemistry etc, then please exercise some restraint, and replace 'Peat thinks' and 'Peat feels' in front of your thoughts with 'I think' , and stop referring misleadingly to 'the RDAs' all over the forum. It is not 'being nice' or in my book to continue with these phrases.

Click to expand...

My view is that whenever I say "Peat thinks" or "Peat feels", what follows should be a very close paraphrase of what Peat has actually said, which one can verify with a quick search of toxinless. If it comes from his newsletters or books I have access to but not available on toxinless, I try to say that.

On the other hand, if someone knows a quote from Peat that contradicts what I've said, it should be easy enough to call it up in the search and point it out to me, so I can learn. That is the nature of discourse. We don't throw stones at someone who interprets Blake, saying "Blake thinks" and "Blake feels". It's implicit that Blake's work, like Peat's, has many layers of meaning.

Like Blake, perhaps intentionally, Peat writes in a style that is challenging, and the substance of what he writes departs from, and really entirely obliterates the core of biology and molecular biology taught in university. I've spent countless hours enjoyably studying it. But if anyone thinks I have failed to understand it, please let me know. That's why we're here.

And I do urge a disclaimer that Ray Peat is not affiliated with this forum in any way, which I think would be a sign of respect for the man and his work.

You just go round in circles.

If this were my forum, by now you would be banned. Your facade of being open, honest and respectful clashes with your constant misattribution, misinformation and hyperbolic claims. Your impact on the forum is insidiously negative.

The mods here have been lineant enough. Perhaps a 7 day ban will give you the time to reflect and come to your senses.

panda · Jan 20, 2015

visionofstrength said:
Yes, that's really all I ask, too: what specifically are you at odds with, with citations to Peat's work, so that, whenever I'm wrong, I can simply fix it.

Well, it depends. If you say "Peat believes that you should have sex 25 minutes after eating 20g or more of protein" (not saying you said that, just as an example), the burden of the proof is on you. Nobody is going to find citations from Peat not saying that.
And if you wrote the above quote because you read somewhere that Peat says that eating protein is good and in some other place that having sex is good for you, it's fair to assume that the quote above is a wild speculation and you're going to have intelligent people calling you out. Now, if the above scenario repeats frequently, some people (like BingDing I guess) are going to get tired of doing it time after time.

Tara's advice above is pretty good, about how you may improve your posting in the forum.

visionofstrength · Jan 20, 2015

panda said:
visionofstrength said:

Yes, that's really all I ask, too: what specifically are you at odds with, with citations to Peat's work, so that, whenever I'm wrong, I can simply fix it.

Click to expand...

Well, it depends. If you say "Peat believes that you should have sex 25 minutes after eating 20g or more of protein" (not saying you said that, just as an example), the burden of the proof is on you. Nobody is going to find citations from Peat not saying that.
And if you wrote the above quote because you read somewhere that Peat says that eating protein is good and in some other place that having sex is good for you, it's fair to assume that the quote above is a wild speculation and you're going to have intelligent people calling you out. Now, if the above scenario repeats frequently, some people (like BingDing I guess) are going to get tired of doing it time after time.

Tara's advice above is pretty good, about how you may improve your posting in the forum.

Well, sure, but I'm proposing that the proof is in the search engine at http://www.toxinless.com/peat/search.

Have you tried it? It's really very helpful. All of my Peat interpretations can be easily checked there, as far as I know. Moreover, on many of my prior posts I have provided the literal quotations, and once I do that, I generally don't do it over and over again, each time the same point is raised.

tara · Jan 20, 2015

visionofstrength said:
My view is that whenever I say "Peat thinks" or "Peat feels", what follows should be a very close paraphrase of what Peat has actually said ...

I agree. It seems that you often think you have made a very close paraphrase, when it appears to several others that you are saying something quite different from Peat. If several people think your paraphrases are inaccurate, that is pretty good evidence that they are seeing some actual differences in meaning.
Since you now know this, perhaps it is time you accept that your paraphrasing is not reliably accurate, and stop applying 'Peat says' to them so liberally.

visionofstrength said:
On the other hand, if someone knows a quote from Peat that contradicts what I've said, it should be easy enough to call it up in the search and point it out to me, so I can learn.

I think this has been done, and ignored, a number of times.

visionofstrength said:
Like Blake, perhaps intentionally, Peat writes in a style that is challenging, and the substance of what he writes departs from, and really entirely obliterates the core of biology and molecular biology taught in university. I've spent countless hours enjoyably studying it. But if anyone thinks I have failed to understand it, please let me know. That's why we're here.

It may well depart in significant areas, but I don't think that is the same as 'entirely obliterates'. I'm sure Peat would have many agreements, as well as disagreements with university biologists.

I believe that you have understood many things that Peat has written. But where people have attempted to help you understand aspects that you seem to differ from Peat on, you have repeatedly dismissed it.

visionofstrength · Jan 20, 2015

tara said:
I believe that you have understood many things that Peat have written. But where people have attempted to help you understand aspects that you seem to differ from Peat on, you have repeatedly dismissed it.

Who has given me a citation to Peat's work that I dismissed? I'm sorry I must have missed it.

visionofstrength · Jan 20, 2015

Testing new sig.... testing 1, 2, 3.

tara · Jan 20, 2015

visionofstrength said:
And I do urge a disclaimer that Ray Peat is not affiliated with this forum in any way, which I think would be a sign of respect for the man and his work.

On Portal page www.raypeatforum.com/forum/portal

Welcome to the Ray Peat forum!

This forum is for members interested in learning about and discussing Dr. Ray Peat's ideas, as presented in his writing and interviews, and in helping each other to think about how we can apply these ideas in our own lives. Ray Peat does not moderate or participate in this forum. Posts here do not necessarily always represent his views.

To read Ray Peat's ideas directly, go to raypeat.com.
You can find some of his writings and interviews in this forum at viewforum.php?f=18

visionofstrength · Jan 20, 2015

Thank you! Can you show it on all pages, for visitors who bypass the forum by way of a search engine link? Charlie would need to install this mod:
https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=981975

charlie · Jan 20, 2015

That mod will not work on this version of the forum. However, if you notice an extension has been added and you can see the disclaimer at the bottom of the page. I have hit the maximum characters and will be in contact with the extension builder to find out how to increase that limit. Then I will be adding it in.

narouz · Jan 20, 2015

FWIW, I would like to put in a favorable word for VoS.
I've had a bit of a changed attitude.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, VoS.
You do seem to have some good scientific background.
And you think in creative ways about Peat, Ling, and other stuff close to my heart.

Your plan to sell your version of Peat's ideas
via whatever fancy marketing method that was...
that Is a little hard to digest.
But, whatever.

I do think Tara has a point though.
It would soothe a lot of Peat defenders here
if you would bolster your ways of clarifying
where Peat stops and VoS starts.
This could well include specific scientific points
but also the larger context concerning what is in the spirit of Peat and what is not.

In that way, for instance:
the marketing angle...it's kinda...well, it just tends to undermine
what would seem otherwise to be a genuine respect for Peat on your part
And then there is your very aggressive emphasis on bigtime supplementing--
that too is, to my mind, a basic departure from Peat.
Again, I don't mind departures from Peat!
I just like them clearly marked.

But I have enjoyed many of your posts here, VoS.

visionofstrength · Jan 20, 2015

narouz said:
But I have enjoyed many of your posts here, VoS.

Thank you very much! A number of members have contacted me to say the same.

As I've said to others, I am looking for another forum with less negativity and name-calling, but I don't know if such a thing exists! I'll let you know if I decide to go elsewhere. And thanks again!

cantstoppeating · Jan 20, 2015

visionofstrength said:
narouz said:

But I have enjoyed many of your posts here, VoS.

Click to expand...

Thank you very much! A number of members have contacted me to say the same.

As I've said to others, I am looking for another forum with less negativity and name-calling, but I don't know if such a thing exists! I'll let you know if I decide to go elsewhere. And thanks again!

Feel free to start your own forum or website, that way you'll have free reign to say whatever you like, however you like and whenever you like regardless of correctness.

tara · Jan 20, 2015

Criticising on the basis of 'negativity' does not strike me as generally legitimate.
'Negativity' is a critical catch word applied by some people when others express reasonable objections to what they say or do.
Any thoughtful responsible discussion on any important topic is likely to include rejecting some ideas as false on grounds of evidence and reasoning, and some actions as inappropriate on grounds of their deleterious effects. Such negations are often necessary for a well functioning society (or a well functioning anything).

Matt1951 · Jan 21, 2015

VOS, please keep contributing here. People need to lighten up a little.

narouz · Jan 21, 2015

tara said:
Criticising on the basis of 'negativity' does not strike me as generally legitimate.
'Negativity' is a critical catch word applied by some people when others express reasonable objections to what they say or do.
Any thoughtful responsible discussion on any important topic is likely to include rejecting some ideas as false on grounds of evidence and reasoning, and some actions as inappropriate on grounds of their deleterious effects. Such negations are often necessary for a well functioning society (or a well functioning anything).

Yes, I think there have been some well-reasoned criticisms of VoS' "protocol."
Not just kneejerk "negativity."
VoS' brilliance in some areas gives me hope
that he will use those criticisms to modify some of his aims.

I haven't given this the thought it deserves,
but one thing did occur to me.
I believe there is a stipulation on this forum about selling...no?
I mean it is generally frowned upon for people to use the forum to vend their own products.

With certain exceptions, I guess?
haidut has his cool line of products, doesn't he?
I guess the tacit criterion governing such matters
has to do with it the vended products meet with the approval of the forum?

That sounds fine to me (off the top of my head),
but this may be a reasonable objection to VoS' project.
If he wants to enlist our help or sympathy with his project,
and then he intends to sell that project...
I won't belabor it further because I think it's plain where I'm headed with this...

BingDing · Jan 21, 2015

Spondive said:
What specifically are you at odds with? Just for my own interest

If you go back and read his posts, he is constantly telling people, in a confident and unambiguous voice, what to eat, what to supplement, how to excercise, what is what, and what RP is saying.

And assuming you are pretty familiar with what RP has actually written and said, you think "Why didn't RP ever say that?" That's what I thought about almost every thing VoS posted. Is it because Peat isn't smart enough to understand? Hardly.

Confidence is the key part of a confidence game. It doesn't matter what a con artist says as long as it's vaguely plausible, and he always sounds confident.

What I think is that when people read his posts they were most influenced by his confidence, and gave him credit just because of that; that is the nature of all confidence games. All his bad logic, misdirection, refusal to actually respond to a factual discussion, and endless horse manure didn't mean a thing to him because he was never sincere about understanding this stuff; having a real conversation with him was futile. He is a con artist, and nothing more, IMO.

cantstoppeating · Jan 22, 2015

BingDing said:
Spondive said:

What specifically are you at odds with? Just for my own interest

Click to expand...

If you go back and read his posts, he is constantly telling people, in a confident and unambiguous voice, what to eat, what to supplement, how to excercise, what is what, and what RP is saying.

And assuming you are pretty familiar with what RP has actually written and said, you think "Why didn't RP ever say that?" That's what I thought about almost every thing VoS posted. Is it because Peat isn't smart enough to understand? Hardly.

Confidence is the key part of a confidence game. It doesn't matter what a con artist says as long as it's vaguely plausible, and he always sounds confident.

What I think is that when people read his posts they were most influenced by his confidence, and gave him credit just because of that; that is the nature of all confidence games. All his bad logic, misdirection, refusal to actually respond to a factual discussion, and endless horse manure didn't mean a thing to him because he was never sincere about understanding this stuff; having a real conversation with him was futile. He is a con artist, and nothing more, IMO.

Yes, spot on.

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