Why are haiduts supplements being advertised on every page?

JRMoney15 said:

chris said:

JRMoney15 said:

chris said:

jag - I have not once criticised haidut, or his products, in fact the opposite, I have not one bad thing to say about haidut.

As I've said before my issue is with the advertisement on the top of a forum.

I think with things like this, and if people accept it, where does it stop? Will pictures be added of products at the top and at what point, then, does this place become a place of advertising supplements rather than a place to discuss Peats work and related ideas?

How many posts do I need to make to qualify for an advertising spot?

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I can't tell if you are actually serious.

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What part's troubling you?

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You sound like a child.

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In my opinion this is a case of shoe being on the other foot.
Nothing childish about Chris's objection.
I understand you don't agree,
but you seem to be the one pouting because everything can't go just your way.

narouz said:

So, to summarize:
Chris is not criticizing haidut.
Chris is criticizing Charlie's advertising of haidut's products.
This seems to me to be a reasonable criticism
and it should not be censored or shut down because of fears haidut might be offended.
I hope he is not.
But we don't need to start tiptoeing around haidut's imagined sensitivities
when Chris isn't even criticizing him.

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This is exactly right.

it doesn't really matter either way, chris had honest question no mal intent, haidut probably doesn't care either way, fact he's appreciated he probably appreciates it. I don't think the forum is going to be an advertising center, its one lil thing and Charlie's choice. If it became some constant annoying thing with pop ups or half the page covered I see what you're saying. Like for me, I literally didn't even...notice or care, I thought it was kinda funny. I don't use supplements and so I just read it, smiled, and moved on. Its cool though, I mean haidut good intent and all, done the research, thinks its a legit thing to help people, doesn't use garbage ingredients...its not like a typical supplement where they use the cheapest stuff and embellish their product. I think its more a thing where this forum is like a community of people who kind of 'know' each other, and its just something haidut and Charlie doing to build some kind of collectiveness. I doubt first time anonymous forum readers would buy a methylene blue supplement right off the bat, know what I mean? its something probably only regular members very familiar with peat would even consider. I think that's the target audience, 'us', not...'the market'. Everyone who's like jumping to haiduts defense and attacking chris are being a little bit clingy and desperate. Haidut is a big boy, im sure he does what he does regardless of bunch of people constantly showering him, and I don't t hink he would stop posting because of what chris said, chris even acknowledged having bought the products, and simply wants to protect the integrity or a no nonsense forum structure (not that haiduts supplements are non sense, but bantering ads can be). Really it doesn't matter either way, its kinda rude to attack chris for just a reasonable question. The ad wasn't obnoxious at all or for some bs product. Its ok to question supplements and if they are ideal in the long run, and what Peat might have to say about it. No one is trying to hurt someones business, its people looking for health and liberation here. JRmoney, haidut isn't going to run off offended because one person asked about something not even in an attempt to bring him down, you don't need to trip out about it and get defensive. Haidut probably doesn't care, he didn't even ask Charlie to do that. Charlie isn't turning th is into a commercial forum, its more of a friends for friends thing. I h onestly have no idea how or if theres money involved in how much traffic the forum gets or whatever, but don't care tbh, and I don't think most people that frequent this site do either. If Charlie's paying out of pocket for this then its a pretty big gift. If he's breaking even, all the better. And even if Haidut stopped posting I don't think the forum would collapse. He is a very learned intelligent poster and is a good presence around no doubt and peeps appreciate his writing, but people are pretty much here to discuss a Ray Peat philosophy at the end of the day. I might or other people might throw in some other stuff that's kind of related in a bigger way, which is awesome that Peat's work and mind is so open as to encompass like...every aspect of life, and that all makes this forum even more special, but tis still centered on Peat's work and writings.

chris legit, haidut legit, forum legit. I wish haidut well, I don't take supplements and I wouldn't buy something even as good as his, I know he actually puts time into making high quality things, its just a personal approach I have, but Im not bothered by him selling things at all. I don't think chris is either, he was just protecting the integrity of the forum, which I understand, however I think this forum is safe from becoming an ad website, I didn't think that haidut's supplement add posed any real threat to that, it was more of just a gesture I guess. If it became perpetual and like a constant thing then I might start wondering, but even then, it wouldn't affect my desire to post here or anything...im speaking to peeps on a truthful level and ...say I went to some other site where they did put adds up and were promoting various supplements, id still just say what I say anyways, im talking to people, I know the situation and what health requires, and I just ignore the other stuff. I actually just like talking to people that are open minded, that's why I post here, and Peat is a great foundation for that. If a place is like...full of rigid or following the 'set protocol for success' kind of thing, and people are just totally in that and closed off to other things, then I find it a waste of time to speak in such scenarios. Like I wouldn't go to a paleo forum and be like you should eat more carbs, they have mind made up.

As much as it is kind of a joke about is there or isn't there a 'peat diet', I think its actually important not to specifically design a protocol and say you must stick to this, because then it sets up that whole thing where
people say well if I didn't follow it perfectly that's why my life isn't perfect, or health...like all the other plans out there, when instead it probably is a combination of more broad factors. Its crucial and im sure Peat knows and why he says he has no 'protocol' its because full open communication between people is actually the main purpose, we are always growing as a collective, and therefore any adherence to one thing being right, inevitably leads to stagnation of growth. Constant open minded, aware of senses, communication allows not only for optimization, but growth and evolution

its pretty obvious to many of us that there is kind of clearly foods peat talks about as being good for all
and others not so much, but its still important not to ever say 'this is good and that's bad, or approved or not approved' its a lot better to talk about the potential pros and cons of each thing and just leave it at that, so no matter what situation someone is in they can weigh things and make the best choice, and have room for personal attention and experience
( I digress)

narouz said:

jag2594 said:

aquaman said:

I do agree it's a big leap to make, and presents issues going forwards.

Yes Haidut's posts are excellent and he is one of the best contributors on the forum.

But given that he posts a lot, and that his signature is on every post, and that there are individual threads about each of his supplements with 1000s of views, I think having a banner is overkill as well as being generally against what this forum is about.

Does it mean that all top contributors have the right to have banners advertising their products, or only one? Is Haidut now the forum's official supplement provider? It just gets murky, very quickly.

Many of Haidut's findings are supportive of the supplements he makes, so there's also a slight conflict of interest potential there. In Haidut's case I don't think this would happen. But in others it could.

Then if new people find this forum, the first thing they see is the banner.

Further, RP says he doesn't take any supplements, so in essence it's against his body of work! None of the main people who support Ray's work suggest use of supplements to any real extent either, except for Thyroid (Lita Lee, Josh Rubin, Matt Stone, BioChem Nord etc).

There's just too many issues with this.

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Ray Peat has stated he takes DHEA and aspirin personally. So the last part of your comment is incorrect.

Also, Just because Ray Peat doesn't use a specific supplement, doesn't mean its worthless to take it. You are trying to dogmatize his work by only suggesting that we should only take what he advocate in the present time. For example, he doesn't advocate any vitamin e brands, but products like lotion crafter and swanson can be helpful.

I wouldn't even call the banner advertising. I would categorize it as link.

Besides, Haidut Doesn't do this for a living, he does it on the side. No one else is willing to do the work to make good quality product, are they ? So why should you criticize him and charlie ?

Hopefully Haidut doesn't find these comments on this thread discourteous and then stops posting on this forum. That would be a great lost to the forum.

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Generally, Peat does not recommend taking a lot of supplements,
especially taking huge doses.
Can't we say this is generally true?
He has said that one of his first recommendations to people experiencing health troubles
is to stop taking all supplements--because of allergens or bad ingredients or whatever.
And when he does suggest supplements,
the doses tend to be very modest.
Generally. Generally.
I would think we could agree on this.

When we (note I said "we" because I include myself) experiment along haidut lines
with multi-thousands of grams of lysine or whatever...
I would have to say that that departs from basic, general Peat thinking.
I'm all for haidut.
Just pointing out that he is clearly different from Peat in his views on supplement taking.

Chris is not knocking haidut.
I believe he has said he even buys some of haidut's products.
Chris's complaint is about the advertising by the forum.

So, to summarize:
Chris is not criticizing haidut.
Chris is criticizing Charlie's advertising of haidut's products.
This seems to me to be a reasonable criticism
and it should not be censored or shut down because of fears haidut might be offended.
I hope he is not.
But we don't need to start tiptoeing around haidut's imagined sensitivities
when Chris isn't even criticizing him.

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Wasn't their a thread a few weeks ago stating that they Heard on the east west healing interview that ray peat confirm that one could 15 aspirins a day ?

I don't think your argument is valid because, you guys are trying to fit ray peat recommendations as a more standardize method. Without taking into consideration that each individual needs different things at different times. Does everyone need the same dose of any supplement ? I would assume not ? This is part of the problem that is at the heart of every forum. People taking Ray Peats recommendations to heart and never adjusting or listening to feedback.

Everyone has to do what they think is right for them. And then go from their, but to make it a one size fits all is extremely dogmatic. And fundamental anti ray peat.

The reason Charlie put up the link was because Nutrisorb A isn't making their vitamin A any more. At least Haidut is/was willing to make a supplement when one is no longer available.


Here is the definition of

Advertising: s a form of marketing communication used to persuade an audience to take or continue some action, usually with respect to a commercial offering, or political or ideological support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising

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Did Charlie tried to Persuade the members to buy Haiduts Vitamin A ? Absolutely not. Was their a commercial offering ? Nope.

It is simply a link to buy a supplement that one of the members made. Chris's criticism is uncalled for because its not even advertising to begin with.

jag2594 said:

Wasn't their a thread a few weeks ago stating that they Heard on the east west healing interview that ray peat confirm that one could 15 aspirins a day ?

I don't think your argument is valid because, you guys are trying to fit ray peat recommendations as a more standardize method. Without taking into consideration that each individual needs different things at different times. Does everyone need the same dose of any supplement ? I would assume not ? This is part of the problem that is at the heart of every forum. People taking Ray Peats recommendations to heart and never adjusting or listening to feedback.

Everyone has to do what they think is right for them. And then go from their, but to make it a one size fits all is extremely dogmatic. And fundamental anti ray peat.

The reason Charlie put up the link was because Nutrisorb A isn't making their vitamin A any more. At least Haidut is/was willing to make a supplement when one is no longer available.


Here is the definition of

Advertising: s a form of marketing communication used to persuade an audience to take or continue some action, usually with respect to a commercial offering, or political or ideological support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising

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Did Charlie tried to Persuade the members to buy Haiduts Vitamin A ? Absolutely not. Was their a commercial offering ? Nope.

It is simply a link to buy a supplement that one of the members made. Chris's criticism is uncalled for because its not even advertising to begin with.

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It doesn't matter what you categorize it as because the link above is an advertisement. That's a fact.

I do have a problem with the links being up there because I feel that members should be seeking these supplements out on their own through browsing the forum and not through moderator direction because it sets up a whole lot of problems.

ravster02 said:

I do have a problem with the links being up there because I feel that members should be seeking these supplements out on their own through browsing the forum and not through moderator direction because it sets up a whole lot of problems.

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"The attempt to steer a person can make it hard for them to move, because it inactivates their own guidance system" - Ray Peat

jag2594 said:

This is part of the problem that is at the heart of every forum. People taking Ray Peats recommendations to heart...

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This is a problem I can live with.

jag2594 said:

Everyone has to do what they think is right for them. And then go from their, but to make it a one size fits all is extremely dogmatic. And fundamental anti ray peat.

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I'm all for everyone doing what's right for them.
You are mistaking the simple act of summary or generalization
for dogmatism and, I guess, authoritarianism.
I've never denied that Peat has himself taken supplements and does recommend some.
Simply saying: in general Peat recommends getting nutrients from food.
And when he does recommend supplements,
he generally tends to be cautious and to recommend low doses.
In general.
This is just a general statement, and true as such.
It carries no authority and no one is bound by it.
Anyone can take whatever amount of supplements they wish.
I certainly do.
I bet you will too, jag.

jag2594 said:

The reason Charlie put up the link was because Nutrisorb A isn't making their vitamin A any more. At least Haidut is/was willing to make a supplement when one is no longer available.

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Let's please return to the point.
Chris objects to the forum's decision to advertise.
Chris does not object to haidut or haidut's selling of his products.
Chris loves haidut.
Very much.
I mean, like a brother.

jag2594 said:

Here is the definition of

Advertising: s a form of marketing communication used to persuade an audience to take or continue some action, usually with respect to a commercial offering, or political or ideological support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising

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Did Charlie tried to Persuade the members to buy Haiduts Vitamin A ? Absolutely not. Was their a commercial offering ? Nope.
It is simply a link to buy a supplement that one of the members made. Chris's criticism is uncalled for because its not even advertising to begin with.

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I will leave it to you and others to decide if it is advertisement.
I have said that, personally, I am okay with it.
Chris is not, and I understand where he's coming from.
In my opinion his is a reasonable objection which should not be shouted down by name-calling and the like.
It takes only a moment's thought to know that Peat is famously distrustful of advertising and marketing.
That is not to me a decisive point, but it is certainly legitimate and worthy of consideration.

Thanks Charlie for providing this great forum for us.
Thanks Haidut for your many great posts.
Thanks Haidut for making those supplements available to us, with care about quality of ingredients, appropriate balance of ingredients, and targetting particular ways that may help improve metabolism for some of us. I have used some and intend to get more. Not to say that everybody should use them all.
Thanks to everyone who posts on the pros and cons of the various substances, so we can make more informed decisions about what to try for ourselves.
Thanks Charlie for being thoughtful about how and which products and suppliers you have chosen to allow space to here.
Thanks Charlie for drawing attention to Haidut's new supplements with these small simple links. I was waiting for that vit-A and the banner made it easier for me to see when it was available.

I would see reason to be concerned if this forum were to be overwhelmed with loads of obviously profit-motivated advertisements. No one has to like these particular links, but Charlie does get to use his judgment here.
As it is, this is one of the least commercial sites I have come across in the time I've been trying to learn about and improve my health. (On many of the others I get bombarded with pictures exhorting me to not eat particular foods, or to find out about miraculous face-transforming supplements, or weight-loss tips etc, in addition to whatever the particular website is deliberately promoting.)
So thanks for that too, Charlie.

This is the kind of thread that you'd expect to prove Godwin's Law, except everyone here is too darn good-spirited.

Also:

narouz said:

Chris objects to the forum's decision to advertise.
Chris does not object to haidut or haidut's selling of his products.
Chris loves haidut.
Very much.

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Please don't steal the plot to the fanfiction I'm writing.

narouz said:

I mean, like a brother.

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Never mind.

narouz said:

jag2594 said:

This is part of the problem that is at the heart of every forum. People taking Ray Peats recommendations to heart...

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This is a problem I can live with.

jag2594 said:

Everyone has to do what they think is right for them. And then go from their, but to make it a one size fits all is extremely dogmatic. And fundamental anti ray peat.

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I'm all for everyone doing what's right for them.
You are mistaking the simple act of summary or generalization
for dogmatism and, I guess, authoritarianism.
I've never denied that Peat has himself taken supplements and does recommend some.
Simply saying: in general Peat recommends getting nutrients from food.
And when he does recommend supplements,
he generally tends to be cautious and to recommend low doses.
In general.
This is just a general statement, and true as such.
It carries no authority and no one is bound by it.
Anyone can take whatever amount of supplements they wish.
I certainly do.
I bet you will too, jag.

jag2594 said:

The reason Charlie put up the link was because Nutrisorb A isn't making their vitamin A any more. At least Haidut is/was willing to make a supplement when one is no longer available.

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Let's please return to the point.
Chris objects to the forum's decision to advertise.
Chris does not object to haidut or haidut's selling of his products.
Chris loves haidut.
Very much.
I mean, like a brother.

jag2594 said:

Here is the definition of

Advertising: s a form of marketing communication used to persuade an audience to take or continue some action, usually with respect to a commercial offering, or political or ideological support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising

Click to expand...

Did Charlie tried to Persuade the members to buy Haiduts Vitamin A ? Absolutely not. Was their a commercial offering ? Nope.
It is simply a link to buy a supplement that one of the members made. Chris's criticism is uncalled for because its not even advertising to begin with.

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I will leave it to you and others to decide if it is advertisement.
I have said that, personally, I am okay with it.
Chris is not, and I understand where he's coming from.
In my opinion his is a reasonable objection which should not be shouted down by name-calling and the like.
It takes only a moment's thought to know that Peat is famously distrustful of advertising and marketing.
That is not to me a decisive point, but it is certainly legitimate and worthy of consideration.

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True.

tara said:

Thanks Charlie for providing this great forum for us.
Thanks Haidut for your many great posts.
Thanks Haidut for making those supplements available to us, with care about quality of ingredients, appropriate balance of ingredients, and targetting particular ways that may help improve metabolism for some of us. I have used some and intend to get more. Not to say that everybody should use them all.
Thanks to everyone who posts on the pros and cons of the various substances, so we can make more informed decisions about what to try for ourselves.
Thanks Charlie for being thoughtful about how and which products and suppliers you have chosen to allow space to here.
Thanks Charlie for drawing attention to Haidut's new supplements with these small simple links. I was waiting for that vit-A and the banner made it easier for me to see when it was available...

So thanks for that too, Charlie.

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Gratitude Quintet

I am grateful to Charlie
I am okay with the ads
Chris is not okay with the ads
Chris is grateful to Charlie

Chris loves haidut.

I'd like to see more information behind the company's webpage and the actual people behind it. With real names and references (i.e. to their LinkedIn pages). I'd want you to have my real name if I sold you stuff to put in your body which is not typical food stuffs, too. I've never seen a company backed by only one user name.

chris said:

I've bought supplements from haidut before and never had any problems "finding" them. Why does every page of this forum now have a large coloured banner advertising his supplements?

My question is to Charlie, why have you turned this place into an advertisement rather than a place of discussion, what was wrong with having threads dedicated to each of the supplements?

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I don't see how this is no longer a place of discussion because of the placement of an advertisement.

Dan Wich said:

This is the kind of thread that you'd expect to prove Godwin's Law, except everyone here is too darn good-spirited.

Also:

narouz said:

Chris objects to the forum's decision to advertise.
Chris does not object to haidut or haidut's selling of his products.
Chris loves haidut.
Very much.

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Please don't steal the plot to the fanfiction I'm writing.

narouz said:

I mean, like a brother.

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Never mind.

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Sitting on another incredible business opportunity, Dan.
I'm proud of you.
But...I've given this some careful thought.
I'm feeling that this is a story that must be told.
I think it could be cathartic for all of us.

Gonna greenlight ya on this one.

emmanceb said:

chris said:

I've bought supplements from haidut before and never had any problems "finding" them. Why does every page of this forum now have a large coloured banner advertising his supplements?

My question is to Charlie, why have you turned this place into an advertisement rather than a place of discussion, what was wrong with having threads dedicated to each of the supplements?

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I don't see how this is no longer a place of discussion because of the placement of an advertisement.

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I could picture it happening like this...

Chris wakes up and goes to his computer to check what's happening on The Forum.
First thing that hits him right between the eyes is
f**king "Oxidal! Oxidal! Get'cher Oxidal Here, Cheap!!"...

Chris looks away from the computer and a little tear forms in the corner of his left eye.
He says to himself:
"Maybe this is the day I end it all...?"
It goes downhill from there,
and pretty soon everybody's wondering:
Where the heck is that really sweet cat-face guy, Chris?

You can see how it might kinda put a damper on discussion....

I don't have a problem with Haidut's advertising his supplements. I just wish the topical ones weren't alcohol-based... My skin is too sensitive, otherwise I'll be all over the retinol ;D

narouz said:

emmanceb said:

chris said:

I've bought supplements from haidut before and never had any problems "finding" them. Why does every page of this forum now have a large coloured banner advertising his supplements?

My question is to Charlie, why have you turned this place into an advertisement rather than a place of discussion, what was wrong with having threads dedicated to each of the supplements?

Click to expand...

I don't see how this is no longer a place of discussion because of the placement of an advertisement.

Click to expand...

I could picture it happening like this...

Chris wakes up and goes to his computer to check what's happening on The Forum.
First thing that hits him right between the eyes is
f**king "Oxidal! Oxidal! Get'cher Oxidal Here, Cheap!!"...

Chris looks away from the computer and a little tear forms in the corner of his left eye.
He says to himself:
"Maybe this is the day I end it all...?"
It goes downhill from there,
and pretty soon everybody's wondering:
Where the heck is that really sweet cat-face guy, Chris?

You can see how it might kinda put a damper on discussion....

Click to expand...

Such_Saturation said:

narouz said:

emmanceb said:

chris said:

I've bought supplements from haidut before and never had any problems "finding" them. Why does every page of this forum now have a large coloured banner advertising his supplements?

My question is to Charlie, why have you turned this place into an advertisement rather than a place of discussion, what was wrong with having threads dedicated to each of the supplements?

Click to expand...

I don't see how this is no longer a place of discussion because of the placement of an advertisement.

Click to expand...

I could picture it happening like this...

Chris wakes up and goes to his computer to check what's happening on The Forum.
First thing that hits him right between the eyes is
f**king "Oxidal! Oxidal! Get'cher Oxidal Here, Cheap!!"...

Chris looks away from the computer and a little tear forms in the corner of his left eye.
He says to himself:
"Maybe this is the day I end it all...?"
It goes downhill from there,
and pretty soon everybody's wondering:
Where the heck is that really sweet cat-face guy, Chris?

You can see how it might kinda put a damper on discussion....

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

That made me laugh.
Is it wrong to laugh along with Idi...?

Not if you're a Randian hero

Such_Saturation said:

post 80152

narouz said:

Such_Saturation said:

narouz said:

Such_Saturation said:

No I'm saying he is gonna get shut down... Also VisionOfStrength was only banned last month after a long absence if I'm not mistaken. And he never tried to sell anything.

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Well...in at least one post,
when someone criticized a possible commercial angle in his threads,
VoS defended commercialism by noting the virtues of some kind of fancy marketing method.
I say "fancy" because I know nothing about marketing and can't remember the fancy name he used.
Posts can be edited by the author here, so...
I haven't gone back to try to find the post I refer to.
I just remember it and it gave me pause.
I liked some of his scientific ideas,
but I couldn't get too onboard with his efforts
because I didn't like the idea of being a part of a campaign to, ultimately, sell
VoS's supposedly "Peat" supplements/dosing notions....

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He never sold anything, unless he somehow set up an elaborate deal with the gas cans that he linked when people asked him what he used.

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I'm saying he aired a possible intention to sell.

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But is that why he was banned?

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As far as I can tell he was banned for imposing himself as a potential threat to the stability of the establishment....

Or am I wrong?