Ray Peat Diet Gave Me A Fatty Liver?

Such_Saturation · Oct 6, 2014

I wasn't going by studies, just logic. In fact many studies show benefit on fatty liver by niacinamide. In any case I hope you agree with me that the fat you eat cannot simply disappear if you are not using it.

BingDing · Oct 6, 2014

The only mechanism I know of where dietary fat simply disappears is in Apple white spray paint. You'll have to rebid that black hole project to get the benefits.

pboy · Oct 6, 2014

yea you gotta be careful with adding too much free fat, even butter. It digest better with protein or better a complete meal...but ive found that just relying on preemulsified fat in food is much more gentle, doesn't put that pressure on liver area. Things like whole milk, egg yolk, are pre emulsified..these have choline in them appropriate or abundant to the fat content. Adding even a teaspoon of free fat, I feel the difference...so I think theres a lot to this. If I put a tsp free fat on a cooked potato for example, I don't notice it as much...but in excess of that or in a drink, or by the spoon, I feel it.

The gall bladder area where bile squirts on the food is really small, like an inch or two long, so if you eat a fatty meal or too much fat, even 10grams or so sometimes that isn't preemulsified already, it slows down gastric release quite a bit, and causes the gallbladder to have to go into rapid bile synthesis mode. If the fat is like in milk, already emulsified and fluid, the gallbladder doesn't really have to do anything. I don't think it even triggers fat sensors that much, cause gastric emptying is just as fast...unless you consumed a pint straight or something

yoshiesque · Dec 11, 2014

Well looks like im the next case of "Ray Peat Diet Gave Me A Fatty Liver"

I just got my test results back and liver tests were a bit wack, here are the results:

ALT: 71 (Ref range: <40)
GGT: 58 (Ref Range: <40)

Now a few months before this it was also abnormal (not as abnormal) and i blamed it on aspirin, as aspirin has been shown to make changes like this in some. I did take for several days higher amounts of aspirin because I had a flu/headache. The aspiring amount was probably 2-3g, spread out over the day.

Then I stopped, and also eventually realized that I was never taking 500mg of niacinamide, but niacin instead. After looking into it, I saw that niacin even at that dose has been known to cause liver damage/issues. I certainly was getting niacin flushes, i just didnt know niacin was the cause. Sometimes earlier in the year, i took two of these tablets throughout the day.

But my doctor says its most likely the fact that ive gained weight - ive gone from 62 to about 70 maybe, and I have fat on my stomach now, usually I an quite lean with abs showing.

He says the moment you have fat on ur stomach where you can easily grab it, you will get fatty liver.

So now I have to lose the weight, and he reckons its the sugar thats caused it. truth is, sugar has made me gain weight, but it could also be that the sugars i do get are also (not ONLY source) from just pure brown sugar. And this makes me hungry quickly because im assuming it gets used up quickly.

So now its time to off the peat diet for a bit. Any recommendations on what to do? I feel I need to lose the weight first.

also, chris kressers take on this:
"Those with fatty liver, insulin resistance or other issues should further limit fructose intake, and everyone should avoid high-fructose corn syrup and other concentrated sources like agave syrup."

tara · Dec 11, 2014

yoshiesque said:
Well looks like im the next case of "Ray Peat Diet Gave Me A Fatty Liver"
...
So now its time to off the peat diet for a bit. Any recommendations on what to do? I feel I need to lose the weight first.

If you want advice on this, maybe spell out what version of 'the Peat diet' you have been doing?

Zachs · Dec 11, 2014

Most common explanation is excess fat consumption combined with a high intake of sugar.

haidut · Dec 17, 2014

Zachs said:
Most common explanation is excess fat consumption combined with a high intake of sugar.

yoshiesque said:
Well looks like im the next case of "Ray Peat Diet Gave Me A Fatty Liver"

I just got my test results back and liver tests were a bit wack, here are the results:

ALT: 71 (Ref range: <40)
GGT: 58 (Ref Range: <40)

Now a few months before this it was also abnormal (not as abnormal) and i blamed it on aspirin, as aspirin has been shown to make changes like this in some. I did take for several days higher amounts of aspirin because I had a flu/headache. The aspiring amount was probably 2-3g, spread out over the day.

Then I stopped, and also eventually realized that I was never taking 500mg of niacinamide, but niacin instead. After looking into it, I saw that niacin even at that dose has been known to cause liver damage/issues. I certainly was getting niacin flushes, i just didnt know niacin was the cause. Sometimes earlier in the year, i took two of these tablets throughout the day.

But my doctor says its most likely the fact that ive gained weight - ive gone from 62 to about 70 maybe, and I have fat on my stomach now, usually I an quite lean with abs showing.

He says the moment you have fat on ur stomach where you can easily grab it, you will get fatty liver.

So now I have to lose the weight, and he reckons its the sugar thats caused it. truth is, sugar has made me gain weight, but it could also be that the sugars i do get are also (not ONLY source) from just pure brown sugar. And this makes me hungry quickly because im assuming it gets used up quickly.

So now its time to off the peat diet for a bit. Any recommendations on what to do? I feel I need to lose the weight first.

also, chris kressers take on this:
"Those with fatty liver, insulin resistance or other issues should further limit fructose intake, and everyone should avoid high-fructose corn syrup and other concentrated sources like agave syrup."

Just 400mg caffeine daily and/or 15mg of vitamin K2 (MK-4), taken for about 2 weeks, should bring those liver numbers within/below range. It did wonders for mine to the point that the doctor asked me what I was taking since he was not aware of anything that would bring about such dramatic change. All my liver enzymes (ALP, AST, ALT) dropped by 40%+ using that method. Then again, my liver numbers were not that high to start with, they were just borderline high so maybe it was easier for me to bring them down.

Sheila · Dec 19, 2014

Haidut,
I hope this is not a dumb question, but do we know what K2 is doing when it pulls down liver enzymes like this?
Would be interested in the mechanism if you would be so kind. Point me where to read, whatever you have time for, many thanks
Sheila

Such_Saturation · Dec 19, 2014

Doesn't it work like an electron shuttle? It can reverse Parkinson's in vitro.

haidut · Dec 19, 2014

Sheila said:
Haidut,
I hope this is not a dumb question, but do we know what K2 is doing when it pulls down liver enzymes like this?
Would be interested in the mechanism if you would be so kind. Point me where to read, whatever you have time for, many thanks
Sheila

Ray said that it does something to "diuresis" and detoxes the liver. You can search the forum or his website. He did not elaborate but I think that the electron withdrawal property of K2 is the main driver behind the effects. There are also studies on PubMed that in some cases it can even cure hepatic cancer, which I think solidifies its reputation as very hepatoprotective.

johns74 · Dec 19, 2014

K2 is a strong antioxidant.

Vitamin E is good for the liver, and is also a strong antioxidant.

thebigpeatowski · Dec 24, 2014

Dumb question AND totally off topic (sorry): if aspirin STOPS a person from burning fat, why do body builders and weight loss peeps suggest ECA stacks? If ephedrine and caffeine are most responsible for fat burning why do they include aspirin? Anyone know?
:offtopic

visionofstrength · Dec 29, 2014

The popular description of "fat burning" is wrong or misleading because, in Peat's view, the goal is to increase energy metabolism mainly by "burning" glucose -- not fat.

Aspirin can reduce "fat burning", which means that glucose gets burned instead of fat.

If you can simply increase energy metabolism, then everything else just works, and among many other health benefits, you will lose fat, if you have any extra to lose. You can think of fat as a sign that your energy metabolism could be better, and you can confirm this by measuring the CO2 level in your exhaled breath with a CO2 sensor.

Your exhaled CO2 at rest should measure 5-6%, but if you have extra fat it will be around 4% or less. Of course, being underweight, having gut irritation, and many other hypothyroid symptoms are also indications that your energy metabolism, as measured by CO2 level, is less than it should be.

Such_Saturation · Jan 2, 2015

I'm not sure aspirin can do much against the fat burning effect of something like ephedrine.

Spondive · Jan 2, 2015

What co2 sensor do you use visionofstrength?

jyb · Jan 2, 2015

pboy said:
yea you gotta be careful with adding too much free fat, even butter. It digest better with protein or better a complete meal...but ive found that just relying on preemulsified fat in food is much more gentle, doesn't put that pressure on liver area. Things like whole milk, egg yolk, are pre emulsified..these have choline in them appropriate or abundant to the fat content. Adding even a teaspoon of free fat, I feel the difference...so I think theres a lot to this. If I put a tsp free fat on a cooked potato for example, I don't notice it as much...but in excess of that or in a drink, or by the spoon, I feel it.

The association between dietary fat and weight gain doesn't seem as strong as you suggest... It seems to occur for some but its not automatic. At the population level, do the French / Masai / Kazakh etc gain weight despite their high intake of whole dairy product? I don't think so. Ray also mentions Mexicans getting slimmer when introducing milk. Was it slimmed milk? At the personal level, I never noticed weight gain when increasing fat intake, although I don't gain easily so I'll admit I'm not a good test.

pboy · Jan 2, 2015

I wasn't talking about weight gain, I was talking about GI feel and the mood connection to it

ive since come to new conclusions about fat digestion and intake in general, I think we absorb pretty much any fat in small amounts, and theres a certain rate and amount at once that cant be exceeded otherwise some fat wont be absorbed, I don't know if this causes inflammation, weight gain or whatever, I think most of it just passes out the next day. With no fat at all its pretty difficult to maintain calories, so some is required and it helps calm also, but probably like 65~ ish grams in day is max that can actually be comfortably absorbed, and probably not more than like 15 grams at a time...it might be different for differet people, but there is a noticeable difference in lightness of feel on low to moderate fat rather than high fat, its heavy on the gut and causes acid feelings

nikotrope · Jan 3, 2015

pboy said:
but probably like 65~ ish grams in day is max that can actually be comfortably absorbed, and probably not more than like 15 grams at a time...

Quick question, you are still just talking about free fats for this maximum or do you consider that for you 65g is a max for fats in general (including milk and eggs) ?

visionofstrength · Jan 3, 2015

As I understand it, Peat's view is that the level of unsaturated fat (PUFA) matters most, and in particular, the rate at which the fat goes rancid at room temperature (rancidity). Rancidity is tied to the level of PUFAs because PUFAs go rancid very quickly.

The two natural fats with the lowest PUFA and least rancidity are coconut oil (2% PUFA) and cocoa butter (3% PUFA). You'll notice they stay good at room temperature for a year or more.

MCT oil, extracted from coconut oil, has 0% PUFA and very low rancidity.

Milkfat is about 6-8% PUFA, and has moderate rancidity; Peat suggests nonfat or lowfat milk. It seems Peat hasn't studied or commented on ghee or butter oil extracted from milkfat, which contains butyric acid (said to be an uncoupler), and has low rancidity.

The fat in egg yolks and liver is about 30% PUFA, and has moderate-high rancidity; Peat suggests eating small amounts of these as sources of nutrients like Vitamin A that scarce in other foods Peat hasn't commented on fermented cod liver oil, which is a source of these same nutrients, and has about the same level of PUFAs and rancidity.

Olive oil depends very much on the source and can have PUFA levels as low as 4%, which is quite healthy, or as high as 22%, which is all but poisonous!
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets ... ve-oil.pdf

Peat does note that people can balance eating fat that has moderate rancidity if they have sufficient thyroid, and gives the example of eskimos who eat seal blubber (moderate rancidity) but also fish heads rich in thyroid, and have metabolic rates that are 125% of average.

Blubber, lard. bacon fat have moderate rancidity and PUFA levels. Meat fat tends to be worse.

Other vegetable and fish oils are high in PUFA and have high rancidity, and Peat thinks they should be strictly avoided.

pboy · Jan 3, 2015

nikotrope said:
pboy said:

but probably like 65~ ish grams in day is max that can actually be comfortably absorbed, and probably not more than like 15 grams at a time...

Click to expand...

Quick question, you are still just talking about free fats for this maximum or do you consider that for you 65g is a max for fats in general (including milk and eggs) ?

probably any fat, the milk fat seems to be a little lighter but can still be overdone. I don't know if anyone else here has tried something similar, like don't exceed maybe 15g fat at a time and keep it low throughout the day. Whenever I do this I have no gastric acid feelings and the GI seems to flow a lot faster, faster asorption. If I eat too much fat, like around 15g at a time and then some without waiting a few hours, it stacks up, and eventually gastric acid feelings. I even noticed this years back as a vegan, then forgot about it for a while when I changed up diets but have since gone back to it and its quite significant for me

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Ray Peat Diet Gave Me A Fatty Liver?

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