Applying Peat Principles To Veganism: Incredible Results

[Korven]

I just plugged an estimated random day into chronometer and i'm eating between 2500 - 3000 calories with about 130 gms protein, 60 gms fat (28 gms saturated, 18 gms mono and 7 gms pufa) and 400 gms carbs (with about 60/40 split sugars to starch), easily hitting all the micros in that.

I'm interested in going back to a mostly plant-based approach again... could you please post a screenshot of a days worth of eating in cronometer? It would be very helpful

Also is your digestion still good after being vegan for 2+ years? I was vegan for almost 3 years and eating all of that fiber every day really messed up my digestion and ultimately lead me back to eating animal products again. Maybe I was just eating too much uncooked vegetables and seeds.

However I must admit I did really feel good as a vegan and saw great gains in the gym, before my digestion and health really started to deteriorate.

 

[Jennifer]

Ah yes I see what you mean. If that's the case and chronometer is reliable, then it seems that methionine is the amino acid that is consistently significantly higher in animal proteins than plant (double or close to triple depending), the others seem to be on somewhat of a par from the list you show. The point I was making above, is that when i'm eating animal products my total protein intake tends to be way higher than 100gms due to the sheer ease it is to eat protein dense foods. Where as when eating plant based the ratio of carbs to protein is more ideal, and i tend to get all my calories met while getting around 100 to 130 gms protein. Plus the amount of protein you eat at each meal is less and more spread out evenly through the day which feels a lot better energy wise, with way less stress hormone symptoms.

Ah, okay. Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. I crave more carbs than anything so on average, I tend to eat the same amount of protein no matter the source.

I saw that you mentioned tempeh — other than its PUFA content, have you noticed any negatives from consuming it —digestive issues, poor blood labs etc.? I used to eat it, but can't say for certain how I tolerated it because at the time, I was consuming a food I've since learned I'm allergic to. I've been debating trying low-fat sprouted tofu — I had to go back to eating animal protein due to poor digestion with any plant other than fruit and veggie juices. TOFU lacks all the fiber and starch that I was never able to tolerate despite years of trying. Though, I'm a bit nervous about trying it due to what has been said about soy so much so that I looked into making a curd from defatted peanut flour. I'm also not sure eating soy is as ethical and environmentally friendly as eating grass-fed or sustainably sourced animal proteins. I've been sticking to mostly local, sustainably caught bivalves for protein, for that reason.

 

[Ritchie]

Could you post a sample day or two on cronometer? Thanks =)

I'm interested in going back to a mostly plant-based approach again... could you please post a screenshot of a days worth of eating in cronometer? It would be very helpful

Sure, will do in the next couple of days

 

[Ritchie]

Ah, okay. Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. I crave more carbs than anything so on average, I tend to eat the same amount of protein no matter the source.

I saw that you mentioned tempeh — other than its PUFA content, have you noticed any negatives from consuming it —digestive issues, poor blood labs etc.? I used to eat it, but can't say for certain how I tolerated it because at the time, I was consuming a food I've since learned I'm allergic to. I've been debating trying low-fat sprouted tofu — I had to go back to eating animal protein due to poor digestion with any plant other than fruit and veggie juices. TOFU lacks all the fiber and starch that I was never able to tolerate despite years of trying. Though, I'm a bit nervous about trying it due to what has been said about soy so much so that I looked into making a curd from defatted peanut flour. I'm also not sure eating soy is as ethical and environmentally friendly as eating grass-fed or sustainably sourced animal proteins. I've been sticking to mostly local, sustainably caught bivalves for protein, for that reason.

Haven't noticed any negatives from consuming some tempeh and tofu as a part of other legumes. In fact I'd say my digestion is better now than it was when I wasn't eating legumes, starch and many vegetables and consuming more dairy, meat and eggs. Labs are certainly better now than then too.
Low-fat sprouted tofu sounds interesting, never seen that or tried it before, I'll have to ask some stores about it. Like I said above, I think the concern with soy is nullified when it is consumed in the context of a well rounded and balanced diet with other legumes, saturated fat from things like coconut oil and chocolate, plenty of sugars and carbohydrates, and some amount of vitamin e, fruits and juices and so forth.
As far as the concern about soy not being sustainable, the vast majority of soy grown in the world (I think it's about 85%) is fed to livestock. The soy that humans consume pales in comparison to what's needed to feed cows, pigs, chickens etc in farms.

 

[Ritchie]

Also is your digestion still good after being vegan for 2+ years? I was vegan for almost 3 years and eating all of that fiber every day really messed up my digestion and ultimately lead me back to eating animal products again. Maybe I was just eating too much uncooked vegetables and seeds.

Yeah I cook all the vegetables I eat and in general avoid seeds. I pretty much follow Peats recommendations of cooking leafy greens, mushrooms and other vegetables well. As far as legumes I usually soak first before I cook them. My digestion is really good and has actually improved significantly in the last 2+ years of eating plant based. It was worse when I was eating dairy, meat, eggs and so forth. My metabolism seemed to be tanking back then too, and now it feels very strong. Temps and pulse are up at good solid levels with zero thyroid supplementation and feeling really good.

 

[Korven]

Yeah I cook all the vegetables I eat and in general avoid seeds. I pretty much follow Peats recommendations of cooking leafy greens, mushrooms and other vegetables well. As far as legumes I usually soak first before I cook them. My digestion is really good and has actually improved significantly in the last 2+ years of eating plant based. It was worse when I was eating dairy, meat, eggs and so forth. My metabolism seemed to be tanking back then too, and now it feels very strong. Temps and pulse are up at good solid levels with zero thyroid supplementation and feeling really good.

Wow that's amazing that you're doing so well on 100% plant-based, hope it continues that way! This way of eating does make sense from the point of view of lots of carbs = CO2 and avoiding randle cycle.

Actually just the last two days I've been experimenting with eating lots of legumes, oatmeal, potatoes, rice during daytime and some meat and fat during evenings. Currently my temps are through the roof and I'm sitting at around 98.6 F which never happens otherwise. Also my bowel movements have been perfect i.e no wipe wonders.

However I'm still a bit wary about potential nutritional deficiencies from excluding animal products. Many long-term vegans look frail and sickly with poor skin/hair thinning.

 

[ExCarniv]

I lost all my hair during my vegan years, no male in my family is bald, so it was the diet, plus I lost a tooth.

 

[Jennifer]

Haven't noticed any negatives from consuming some tempeh and tofu as a part of other legumes. In fact I'd say my digestion is better now than it was when I wasn't eating legumes, starch and many vegetables and consuming more dairy, meat and eggs. Labs are certainly better now than then too.
Low-fat sprouted tofu sounds interesting, never seen that or tried it before, I'll have to ask some stores about it. Like I said above, I think the concern with soy is nullified when it is consumed in the context of a well rounded and balanced diet with other legumes, saturated fat from things like coconut oil and chocolate, plenty of sugars and carbohydrates, and some amount of vitamin e, fruits and juices and so forth.
As far as the concern about soy not being sustainable, the vast majority of soy grown in the world (I think it's about 85%) is fed to livestock. The soy that humans consume pales in comparison to what's needed to feed cows, pigs, chickens etc in farms.

Thanks! That's good to know. :) I may have some then just to get over the craving I've had for it since I buy grass-fed when eating land animals and sadly, I'm thinking that's probably more ethical and sustainable than soy products.

I lost all my hair during my vegan years, no male in my family is bald, so it was the diet, plus I lost a tooth.

Yeah, dental problems seem to be a fairly common complaint among vegans. I know of quite a few ex-vegans, mainly the longer-term ones, who lost teeth on the lifestyle. I developed dental problems 4 years into veganism but in fairness, I was eating mostly fruit for the last 3 years of it because it was all I could digest. I've since added back animal protein, mostly shellfish, and I'm finally symptom free and even managed to keep the benefits I experienced as a fruitarian like perfect sleep, energy, digestion, mental clarity, skin quality, symptomless periods, no body odor whatsoever etc.

 

[Ritchie]

However I'm still a bit wary about potential nutritional deficiencies from excluding animal products. Many long-term vegans look frail and sickly with poor skin/hair thinning.

Yeah, dental problems seem to be a fairly common complaint among vegans. I know of quite a few ex-vegans, mainly the longer-term ones, who lost teeth on the lifestyle.

There is no real "vegan diet" and many people that go vegan eat terribly (obviously the same could be said for an animal products based omnivorous diet). That is to say, many vegans can give a plant based diet a bad name. They may cut out sugar, they may attempt to eat low carb, they may eat high amounts of vegetable oils and concentrated forms of PUFA, they may simply not be eating enough calories, they may be attempting to eat a raw diet, they may like you Jennifer eat only fruitarian which would cut out so many essential nutrients imo if done long term... All these things would lead to disastrous health outcomes. However, as the title of this thread states, applying Peat's principles of high carbohydrate, high sugar, low PUFA, good amounts of saturated fats, decent amount of proteins, cooked leafy greens etc leads to exceptional health outcomes in my experience with none of these skin, hair, dental or nutritional deficiency problems. Like i've said above, i've been eating this way for almost 3 years and looking great, feeling great, skin's looking great, lots of muscle, very good body composition, sleeping well, training really well with great recovery time, good mindstate and so forth. Absolutely no nutritional deficiencies in my labs and metabolism feeling strong.

 

[Jennifer]

@Ritchie — The majority of the people I was referring to ate high carb, whole food plant-based, not vegan keto, vegan junk food or fruitarian, and like I mentioned, were mostly longer-term vegans so those nearing a decade or more.

It's my opinion that we suffered damage because we did the diet right, not because we did it wrong meaning, had we not actually been vegan and instead ate animal protein on a monthly basis like you, we may have fared better.

I include me in that because I was vegan for close to 9 years in total (12 vegetarian) and ate a diet like yours, minus the oysters, for 5 of those years. That was my diet for over 3 years starting back in 2005, before my spine collapsed.

I think it's great that you're feeling so good on your current diet, but not all of us could adapt to all that roughage long-term and that's why many of us ended up doing extreme versions of the diet, fasting, urine therapy etc.

I actually think many junk food vegans fare better than whole food vegans because they eat refined foods, reducing the fiber load. Ray told me he thinks fiber is risky and that it can cause low cholesterol and thyroid function.

Two common things I've noticed with many of the vegans who suffered thyroid/calcium metabolism dysfunction (dental issues and other bone and connective tissue disorders, depression, low temps, hair loss etc.) are orange skin, particularly on the palms and around the mouth, and elevated TSH levels.

 

[Ritchie]

@Ritchie — The majority of the people I was referring to ate high carb, whole food plant-based, not vegan keto, vegan junk food or fruitarian, and like I mentioned, were mostly longer-term vegans so those nearing a decade or more.

It's my opinion that we suffered damage because we did the diet right, not because we did it wrong meaning, had we not actually been vegan and instead ate animal protein on a monthly basis like you, we may have fared better.

I include me in that because I was vegan for close to 9 years in total (12 vegetarian) and ate a diet like yours, minus the oysters, for 5 of those years. That was my diet for over 3 years starting back in 2005, before my spine collapsed.

I think it's great that you're feeling so good on your current diet, but not all of us could adapt to all that roughage long-term and that's why many of us ended up doing extreme versions of the diet, fasting, urine therapy etc.

I actually think many junk food vegans fare better than whole food vegans because they eat refined foods, reducing the fiber load. Ray told me he thinks fiber is risky and that it can cause low cholesterol and thyroid function.

Two common things I've noticed with many of the vegans who suffered thyroid/calcium metabolism dysfunction (dental issues and other bone and connective tissue disorders, depression, low temps, hair loss etc.) are orange skin, particularly on the palms and around the mouth, and elevated TSH levels.

It's great you've got your health back on track from what sounds like a pretty bad place! I can assure you I'm not experiencing any of these deterioration like symptoms you describe, and in fact it's quite the opposite, completely thriving and feeling great, health has improved significantly in all areas. My body composition is great, i'm 5'11 and 85kg and feeling solid and strong. Back when I was eating a lot of animal proteins, meat, dairy and the like in combination with a Peat inspired high carb diet, I was carrying a lot more fat, particularly around the waste area. Now I'd say my body composition is optimal. My brother and a few of my friends are eating the same way and all experiencing similar results. Did you know about Peat back then when you were deteriorating? Perhaps you were eating high PUFA? Maybe you were avoiding eating any concentrated forms of refined sugar? Maybe not eating any coconut oil, which balances out the fatty acid ratio with more saturation.. Also, I think attempting to eat a lot of raw food can cause issues with digestion and the fibre thing as you describe, I'm finding cooking food well eliminates these issues with fibre, and things like drinking lots of juice rather than trying to eat heaps of fruit whole.. Also lots of vegans supplement with things like iron, flaxseed oil and the like, which can obviously cause all sorts of problems... Just some thoughts.

 

[BigChad]

Similar issue with zinc as well, but much worse due to the shorter life. One can't eat their full RDA of zinc in one sitting and it last them all day. So ideally, eating small amounts of zinc with each meal probably is one of the better ways to manage and maintain a healthy zinc status. A person can only consume enough zinc at a meal to last them two-thirds of their day. Some people avoid dairy and most zinc foods and think if they just have one oyster a day in one sitting or a few oysters once a week they are fine, but the body can't build up zinc and use it later like it can with B-12. The zinc issue is then further exacerbated if the person is masturbating/having sex 2-3 times per day or lactating, or trying to add muscle.

What do you mean zinc cant be built up and stored but b12 can? I thought its the complete opposite? B vitamins and C are best consumee daily whereas minerals like zinc build up ij the body? The upper limit for zinc is 40mg a day. Why would it have such a low upper limit if it doesnt build up in the body

 

[BigChad]

Whenever I plug a day of eating into chronometer my zinc levels are high. Are you aware that legumes like lentils and chickpeas have heaps of zinc in them? Same with almonds and oats among other things.

All those things you mention have anti nutrients which inhibit zinc and iron absorption while promotion or allowing copper absorption. Not sure about almonds. You may do well on a zma supplement. I think people eating lots of chickpeas on vegan type diets are at risk of copper toxicity iirc. If u drink tap water that would provide even more copper

 

[BigChad]

The doc told me that the bulk of people he sees with B12 deficiency eat a diet high in meat and dairy so there must be something else going on there that causes issues with B12 in people. In any case my B12 levels are high and I'm feeling good so I'll keep monitoring it and see how it goes, and perhaps eat oysters a bit more regularly like once a week or fortnight.

That's a claim thrown around a lot.. Be great if you could get a bit more specific about these "anti nutrients", along with some evidence?
From experience this doesn't seem to be the case and my blood test results are certainly reflecting good amounts of zinc and all the other minerals. I've also seen a lot of research done showing that this concern of anti nutrients is completely alleviated when the food in question is prepared and cooked properly, which is also reflecting my experience.

I think its absorption issues due to low thyroid. The average person in the us is hypothyroid, overweight. Or meat and dairy in the us dont contain much vitamins anymore

 

[Waremu]

What do you mean zinc cant be built up and stored but b12 can? I thought its the complete opposite? B vitamins and C are best consumee daily whereas minerals like zinc build up ij the body? The upper limit for zinc is 40mg a day. Why would it have such a low upper limit if it doesnt build up in the body

The upper limit of a vitamin can't be compared to that of a mineral. These things are based on baseline nutritional needs of those individual nutrients, toxicity, etc. Minerals build up in the body if more are being consumed than used/lost, or only if the body is not being depleted of those minerals via diet or environmental factors. Some minerals are depleted or used up at a higher rate than others. The body has higher short-term needs for zinc, partly due to zinc depletion via diet and environmental factors. You cannot just consume a bunch of zinc and it last you days before running low on zinc, like with Vitamin B-12. You can only absorb enough zinc to last you two-thirds of the day, roughly. Plasma zinc will typically spike after a meal, then decline. Inflammation in the body, ejaculation, sickness, digestive issues will lower plasma zinc. Most people have at least some of these things going on. You can only absorb enough B-12 from a single meal to last you a day, however, if you eat high amounts of B12 at each meal, you can store enough to last you days. With zinc, on the other hand, on average, you can only absorb about a third of the zinc from your food at a time. Again, only enough to last two-thirds of your day. It varies depending on what you are eating, but it averages out to about that. So if you eat all your oysters in one meal for your daily zinc intake and think you are good for the day, you will fall short. And again, that is assuming you are not trying to add lean muscle or ejaculate daily. Also, the RDA for zinc does not take into account men who ejaculate regularly, or who lift weights/build muscle. Both of these things dramatically raise zinc requirements. And most healthy men, it is safe to assume, ejaculate at the very least once every day or every other day, averaged out. In fact, when a man ejaculates, on average, there is a bout 1mg of zinc per ejaculate. If a man ejaculates once per day, then he will probably want to add another 3 mg of zinc to his daily intake or RDA. If a man is ejaculating 3-5 times per day, even averaged out to that, for foods sake (as, again, only about a third of zinc is absorbed from food at a time), that will likely increase zinc demands by as much as another 9-12 mg of zinc per day on top of their RDA. Because ejaculation alone can make large variations in a mans zinc requirements, in conjunction to the fact that most men don't spread their zinc intake throughout the day in meals, and consume much of the zinc that they do eat with anti-nutrients which lower zinc absorption, there is likely more people walking around with a zinc deficiency or low zinc levels than not. Women who lactate and are pregnant also greater zinc demands. Menstruation only causes very small losses in zinc. So the smart thing to do would to try to spread your zinc intake throughout the day among a few small meals, or at the very least 3 main meals and 1-2 snacks. If you are trying to put on muscle or ejaculate often, try to have maximum amount of zinc intake among 4-6 small meals/snacks daily from zinc containing foods. And again, if you are a bodybuilder or natural bodybuilder wanting to put on 10 pounds of muscle, you would need about 90 mg of zinc. If you want to put that on in one month, thats another 3 mg of zinc needed per day, on top of the amount needed according to RDA, and to account for ejaculation. The most common reaction to zinc deficiency are dry patches on the skin and extreme acne problems; also loss of LBM. Alcohol and diabetes also leads to urinary losses of zinc. There are genetic mutations in zinc transporters that may also be involved in poor zinc absorption. During an acute crisis of diarrhea, the dose/amount of zinc (from foods) should be doubled.

 

[DennisX]

Yeah i'm finding applying Peats principles of high carb and high sugar, low PUFA, some saturated fat, decent amount of protein, coffee, chocolate, etc is fantastic. Perhaps in your 20s you weren't eating that way? I think the trap with a vegan diet is that many eat lots of veg oils and concentrated forms of PUFAs while attempting to cut out sugars and carbs. That would equal disaster.

As far as oats go, they are quite in line with Peats perspective: high in energy/carbohydrate/glucose to support a strong metabolism, good amount of well balanced protein, good amounts of other micros. I cook them in water (reducing the water), and eat them with ripe bananas, berries, dates, coconut flakes, maple syrup, sometimes add some chocolate broken up into it.. so all the sugars provide plenty of fructose to balance out the potential for any blood sugar spike from the starch. Almonds are very high in vitamin E, have a good amount of calcium and nice protein ratios, I don't eat heaps of them but a few here and there. Beans when well prepared (i.e. cooked well, maybe soaked as well) are a great source of protein (well balanced aminos) and carbs. I often eat them with coconut oil and other veges like potatoes, kale and so forth. Peat's objection to beans would probably be the phytates but from what I've researched, and experienced, cooking and preparing eliminates this concern.

There is a measurement called DIAAS that measures the bioavailability of protein sources. Whole milk, chicken breast, eggs(hard boiled), egg whites are around 1.1 DIAAS. Oatmeal-.542, almonds-.40, kidney beans-.588, cooked rice-.595, hydrolysis collagen-0.0, lentils-.52, black beans-.53, chickpeas-.71. The point of this is if you are getting 100gms of protein from plant sources only approx 60% of it is bio available. So 100 gms of protein from plant sources is 40% less bioavailable than 100gms of protein from animal sources. While you think you are getting enough protein from plant sources you are really you are getting 40% less.

 

[pauljacob]

A large percentage of doctors today are not only a major cause of deaths in the US, but are also glorified drug dealers for their big pharma pimps. Many of them are grossly overweight and/or smoke or eat or poorly.

My doctor is slim and in good shape, but he is still just another drug dealer! Too bad in the U.S. we can't buy our own medicine and must pay these drug dealers good money for a prescription.

 

[BigChad]

The upper limit of a vitamin can't be compared to that of a mineral. These things are based on baseline nutritional needs of those individual nutrients, toxicity, etc. Minerals build up in the body if more are being consumed than used/lost, or only if the body is not being depleted of those minerals via diet or environmental factors. Some minerals are depleted or used up at a higher rate than others. The body has higher short-term needs for zinc, partly due to zinc depletion via diet and environmental factors. You cannot just consume a bunch of zinc and it last you days before running low on zinc, like with Vitamin B-12. You can only absorb enough zinc to last you two-thirds of the day, roughly. Plasma zinc will typically spike after a meal, then decline. Inflammation in the body, ejaculation, sickness, digestive issues will lower plasma zinc. Most people have at least some of these things going on. You can only absorb enough B-12 from a single meal to last you a day, however, if you eat high amounts of B12 at each meal, you can store enough to last you days. With zinc, on the other hand, on average, you can only absorb about a third of the zinc from your food at a time. Again, only enough to last two-thirds of your day. It varies depending on what you are eating, but it averages out to about that. So if you eat all your oysters in one meal for your daily zinc intake and think you are good for the day, you will fall short. And again, that is assuming you are not trying to add lean muscle or ejaculate daily. Also, the RDA for zinc does not take into account men who ejaculate regularly, or who lift weights/build muscle. Both of these things dramatically raise zinc requirements. And most healthy men, it is safe to assume, ejaculate at the very least once every day or every other day, averaged out. In fact, when a man ejaculates, on average, there is a bout 1mg of zinc per ejaculate. If a man ejaculates once per day, then he will probably want to add another 3 mg of zinc to his daily intake or RDA. If a man is ejaculating 3-5 times per day, even averaged out to that, for foods sake (as, again, only about a third of zinc is absorbed from food at a time), that will likely increase zinc demands by as much as another 9-12 mg of zinc per day on top of their RDA. Because ejaculation alone can make large variations in a mans zinc requirements, in conjunction to the fact that most men don't spread their zinc intake throughout the day in meals, and consume much of the zinc that they do eat with anti-nutrients which lower zinc absorption, there is likely more people walking around with a zinc deficiency or low zinc levels than not. Women who lactate and are pregnant also greater zinc demands. Menstruation only causes very small losses in zinc. So the smart thing to do would to try to spread your zinc intake throughout the day among a few small meals, or at the very least 3 main meals and 1-2 snacks. If you are trying to put on muscle or ejaculate often, try to have maximum amount of zinc intake among 4-6 small meals/snacks daily. And again, if you are a bodybuilder or natural bodybuilder wanting to put on 10 pounds of muscle, you would need about 90 mg of zinc. If you want to put that on in one month, thats another 3 mg of zinc needed per day, on top of the amount needed according to RDA, and to account for ejaculation. The most common reaction to zinc deficiency are dry patches on the skin and extreme acne problems; also loss of LBM. Alcohol and diabetes also leads to urinary losses of zinc. There are genetic mutations in zinc transporters that may also be involved in poor zinc absorption. During an acute crisis of diarrhea, the dose of zinc should be doubled.

Why so much focus on zinc? The composition of semen, its vast majority is phosphorus and calcium.
I feel like you are overselling zinc, and buying into the hype put out by ZMA manufacturers. Every mineral sounds very impressive on its own but you need all of them.

Logically speaking, for larger individuals, or individuals with higher metabolic rates, every mineral, nutrient and vitamin would be required in larger amounts not just zinc.

Theres a case study of someone who started using zinc for acne, liked it, then started using 150mg or more a day and after a year was obese, lethargic and couldn't work.

Overdosing zinc is for the most part safer than overdosing other minerals. Lots of people have excess iron and copper which the zinc would improve as well.

An additional 10 to 15mg zinc daily, along with a multivitamin with 18mg iron 11mg zinc oxide 0.5mg copper sulfate, seemed to work fine for me. On top of a decent zinc diet with 8oz ground beef a day, minimal copper. Yet when i dropped the multivitamin while continuing zinc, i got anemic and some hypothyroid symptoms pretty quickly, within 3 weeks. Also got some histamine intolerance symptoms, probably copper and DAO enzyme getting too low.

I don't think the 1mg per ejaculation is accurate and even if it is, if you ejaculate multiple times each ejaculation after the first gets continuously smaller so its impossible for each one to have 1mg zinc.

Taking lots of zinc at once not being ideal applies to every mineral. It was found that people taking iron supplements everyday or in larger doses, had higher hepcidin and were excreting more iron. Anemic patients who took moderate iron doses every other day recovered from the anemia faster than people megadosing iron daily.

Zinc is valuable but there doesn't seem to be any value to going above 20 to 30mg a day, from diet supps combined and balanced with other minerals like iron and copper. Maybe competitive athletes or massive bodybuilders can handle more, but even then they'd require more of everything not just more zinc by itself. The safe upper limit of 40mg zinc seems very accurate and id say its 30mg for most especially on lower iron and copper intakes.

Only 2/3 of zinc from food being absorbed seems normal, iirc even heme iron is like 30% absorbed and absorption of these things depends on whether you are having fiber or anti nutrients or competing minerals alongside them. Then there are absorption boosters like vitamin c, and i think b6 improves zinc absorption or retention. Doesnt the body have hundreds of mg or a few grams of zinc in it btw? That would mean it is being stored as rda is 15mg or 11mg

 

[redsun]

Why so much focus on zinc? The composition of semen, its vast majority is phosphorus and calcium.
I feel like you are overselling zinc, and buying into the hype put out by ZMA manufacturers. Every mineral sounds very impressive on its own but you need all of them.

Logically speaking, for larger individuals, or individuals with higher metabolic rates, every mineral, nutrient and vitamin would be required in larger amounts not just zinc.

Theres a case study of someone who started using zinc for acne, liked it, then started using 150mg or more a day and after a year was obese, lethargic and couldn't work.

Overdosing zinc is for the most part safer than overdosing other minerals. Lots of people have excess iron and copper which the zinc would improve as well.

An additional 10 to 15mg zinc daily, along with a multivitamin with 18mg iron 11mg zinc oxide 0.5mg copper sulfate, seemed to work fine for me. On top of a decent zinc diet with 8oz ground beef a day, minimal copper. Yet when i dropped the multivitamin while continuing zinc, i got anemic and some hypothyroid symptoms pretty quickly, within 3 weeks. Also got some histamine intolerance symptoms, probably copper and DAO enzyme getting too low.

I don't think the 1mg per ejaculation is accurate and even if it is, if you ejaculate multiple times each ejaculation after the first gets continuously smaller so its impossible for each one to have 1mg zinc.

Taking lots of zinc at once not being ideal applies to every mineral. It was found that people taking iron supplements everyday or in larger doses, had higher hepcidin and were excreting more iron. Anemic patients who took moderate iron doses every other day recovered from the anemia faster than people megadosing iron daily.

Zinc is valuable but there doesn't seem to be any value to going above 20 to 30mg a day, from diet supps combined and balanced with other minerals like iron and copper. Maybe competitive athletes or massive bodybuilders can handle more, but even then they'd require more of everything not just more zinc by itself. The safe upper limit of 40mg zinc seems very accurate and id say its 30mg for most especially on lower iron and copper intakes.

Only 2/3 of zinc from food being absorbed seems normal, iirc even heme iron is like 30% absorbed and absorption of these things depends on whether you are having fiber or anti nutrients or competing minerals alongside them. Then there are absorption boosters like vitamin c, and i think b6 improves zinc absorption or retention. Doesnt the body have hundreds of mg or a few grams of zinc in it btw? That would mean it is being stored as rda is 15mg or 11mg

I dont think he is saying the other minerals arent important but zinc has a direct role in so many bodily processes you couldnt even begin to explain. You don't store zinc in significant quantities for later use. Stress can make you lose zinc, as well as other things can increase zinc requirements as Waremu already mentioned. You need zinc and B6 in order to make enzymes that build all proteins in the body. You need it to make other enzymes, hormones, neurotransmitters, muscles, organs, connective tissue... you need zinc for the immune system. You can actually get anemic with zinc deficiency since you need zinc and B6 to make blood cells as well. You need it for stomach acid production... Thats not even exhaustive.

It is incredibly valuable, that's why he called for zinc spaced throughout the day. Optimal zinc status means lots of zinc each meal to account for absorption rate and to make sure to get a little more zinc if you exercise, want muscle growth, or meet other conditions that need more zinc.

Protein intake helps boost absorption but I never heard of C helping, B6 maybe but you aren't going to get significantly higher zinc absorption beyond the norm. Deficiency state may also affect it.

150mg zinc a day for entire year doesn't make sense. Obesity could have easily beem caused by his low absorption(because of zinc antagonism) and intake of other minerals that would make him insulin resistant. You would never get such high zinc intake from natural foods while also not getting high intake of the other minerals.

 

[Waremu]

Why so much focus on zinc? The composition of semen, its vast majority is phosphorus and calcium.

Because 1) the threads topic is about zinc and 2) Zinc is very important. Just because the composition of semen includes calcium and phosphorus doesn't negate the fact that a large amount of zinc is used in a persons ejaculate. One is also getting plenty of calcium and phosphorus on a healthy diet so those things are being added back as well.

I feel like you are overselling zinc, and buying into the hype put out by ZMA manufacturers. Every mineral sounds very impressive on its own but you need all of them.

First of all, you felt instead of read. Pay attention to reading what I said more and 'feeling' less. I never mentioned ZMA or zinc supplementation. I recommend using food and not zinc supplements. There is no hype in stressing the importance of a nutrient.

Logically speaking, for larger individuals, or individuals with higher metabolic rates, every mineral, nutrient and vitamin would be required in larger amounts not just zinc.

This is a silly statement. Of course all minerals are important. No one said that all were not important. But not all minerals are equally easy to obtain via diet by just eating whatever you want. Some minerals are likely to be less absorbed or depleted more so than others and therefore, adherence to said mineral intake is important.

There's a case study of someone who started using zinc for acne, liked it, then started using 150mg or more a day and after a year was obese, lethargic and couldn't work.

Was it supplemental zinc? It sounds like it was. In of that, there is a ton that could go wrong with taking such large doses of supplemental zinc. So of course there would be issues there. I do not recommend that. You're taking what I said and applying it to some idiot who took extreme amounts of supplemental zinc. It is silly to compare someone taking large amounts of supplemental zinc to my recommendations on getting more food based zinc.

Overdosing zinc is for the most part safer than overdosing other minerals. Lots of people have excess iron and copper which the zinc would improve as well.

Why would you say 'overdosing zinc?' We are not talking about 'overdosing' zinc. Also, that is highly subjective and up for debate. Many people have very low copper and high iron as well.

An additional 10 to 15mg zinc daily, along with a multivitamin with 18mg iron 11mg zinc oxide 0.5mg copper sulfate, seemed to work fine for me. On top of a decent zinc diet with 8oz ground beef a day, minimal copper. Yet when i dropped the multivitamin while continuing zinc, i got anemic and some hypothyroid symptoms pretty quickly, within 3 weeks. Also got some histamine intolerance symptoms, probably copper and DAO enzyme getting too low.

You were taking supplements..​

I don't think the 1mg per ejaculation is accurate and even if it is, if you ejaculate multiple times each ejaculation after the first gets continuously smaller so its impossible for each one to have 1mg zinc.

I am not concerned with what you think, unless you have evidence showing the opposite. That is what some of the research has shown. Show me any research stating that the amount of zinc gets smaller after the first ejaculation.

Taking lots of zinc at once not being ideal applies to every mineral. It was found that people taking iron supplements everyday or in larger doses, had higher hepcidin and were excreting more iron. Anemic patients who took moderate iron doses every other day recovered from the anemia faster than people megadosing iron daily.

Never said to take 'lots of zinc' at once. Read before posting. Once again, I stressed to seperate your zinc across meals, and to get more than the RDA to make up for ejaculation, health or digestive issues, building muscle, and overall health. That is what I said.

Zinc is valuable but there doesn't seem to be any value to going above 20 to 30mg a day, from diet supps combined and balanced with other minerals like iron and copper. Maybe competitive athletes or massive bodybuilders can handle more, but even then they'd require more of everything not just more zinc by itself. The safe upper limit of 40mg zinc seems very accurate and id say its 30mg for most especially on lower iron and copper intakes.

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No one said that bodybuilders would require only more zinc. If you are getting it from whole foods, you would get higher ratios with increased zinc.

Only 2/3 of zinc from food being absorbed seems normal, iirc even heme iron is like 30% absorbed and absorption of these things depends on whether you are having fiber or anti nutrients or competing minerals alongside them. Then there are absorption boosters like vitamin c, and i think b6 improves zinc absorption or retention. Doesnt the body have hundreds of mg or a few grams of zinc in it btw? That would mean it is being stored as rda is 15mg or 11mg

One third of zinc absorbed per meal. Yes, fiber and anti-nutrients have an effect too. You just repeated what I said. Yes, the body has many minerals bound, but they being used for many biochemical actions. The bodies LBM will start to shrink if zinc is low.​