“You have a disease mimicking Gulf war Syndrome”.

[Dave Clark]

Do you disagree with that cutler group saying NAC is bad ?

I have had positive effects from NAC when using it, and have not read any real major issues with it, other than the Peat world not liking cysteine. I do not agree with the Cutler protocol, and Haley shows in that video why DMSA is problematic. I am not familiar with the Cutler group's opinion is of NAC. Haley also showed that lipoic acid can knock Hg out of the cell's energy chain releasing it into the system, and without a permanent binder like NBMI, redistribution is possible. I think the Cutler protocol will go by way of the dinosaurs, but, I am not an expert on that protocol.

 

[mostlylurking]

I have had positive effects from NAC when using it, and have not read any real major issues with it, other than the Peat world not liking cysteine.

I found a little info on cysteine vs. selenocysteine that you might find of interest. From memory, selenocysteine is something like 50 times more effective in the conversion of T4 to T3 than cysteine itself is. Perhaps this is why Ray Peat was negative about cysteine? But it does show that cysteine and selenocysteine are very different. Naturally, I can't find that article right now.

But I did find more interesting things about selenium. Some researchers believe that the bonding of mercury to selenium is the main way it damages health. It seems to be a very big deal.

Selenium and Selenoproteins in Health

Selenium is a trace mineral that is essential for health. After being obtained from food and taken up by the liver, selenium performs various physiological functions in the body in the form of selenoproteins, which are best known for their redox activity ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Haley shows in that video why DMSA is problematic

I did a series of DMSA (oral capsules) combined with EDTA by IV (20 treatments) about 20 years ago. Although I did get a little better, overall it didn't do anything of a lasting nature. I had gone through a period of time where the mercury got freed up from storage (?) and I became symptomatic (mostly brain issues) but the mercury could have simply resettled again. I wouldn't do DMSA again.

 

[Dave Clark]

I found a little info on cysteine vs. selenocysteine that you might find of interest. From memory, selenocysteine is something like 50 times more effective in the conversion of T4 to T3 than cysteine itself is. Perhaps this is why Ray Peat was negative about cysteine? But it does show that cysteine and selenocysteine are very different. Naturally, I can't find that article right now.

But I did find more interesting things about selenium. Some researchers believe that the bonding of mercury to selenium is the main way it damages health. It seems to be a very big deal.

Selenium and Selenoproteins in Health

Selenium is a trace mineral that is essential for health. After being obtained from food and taken up by the liver, selenium performs various physiological functions in the body in the form of selenoproteins, which are best known for their redox activity ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I did a series of DMSA (oral capsules) combined with EDTA by IV (20 treatments) about 20 years ago. Although I did get a little better, overall it didn't do anything of a lasting nature. I had gone through a period of time where the mercury got freed up from storage (?) and I became symptomatic (mostly brain issues) but the mercury could have simply resettled again. I wouldn't do DMSA again.

I personally use selenomethionine, which I understand to be the best form, however, selenocysteine has its benefits from what I recall.
Few people know that selenium can help detox arsenic:

Prevent Alzheimer's, Autism, and Stroke

This blog introduces you to my book - Prevent Alzheimer's, Autism, and Stroke with 7 Supplements, 7 Lifestyle Choices, and a Dissolved Mineral.

prevent-alzheimers-autism-stroke.blogspot.com

Like I mentioned before, I would not trust anything to chelate Hg without translocation of the Hg in the body except for NBMI, as Haley talks about in the video.
Also, becareful of false claims against the 'knock offs' of NBMI, it is misinformation that is promulgated by disgruntled people who have reactions to everything, including NBMI, then go on to make false claims that it is toxic or not pure. I'm being brief and paraphrasing, but none of those people {including Boyd} have proven that these products are bad, some may be, but not all:
file:///C:/Users/freec/Downloads/COA-of-NBMI-OSR-EA-20230728-3%20(1).pdf
The purity and authenticity is there with this product. As a side bar, if I had my druthers, I would much rather give my money to Boyd and company, he went through blood, sweat, and tears with this compound and did the heavy lifting. But, who knows when or if it will ever get approved, and many people don't have the time to wait. And if it gets approved, then you need to go through a doctor, and pay high drug prices for it. I have used the FC product now for 2 years, and it resolved Hg related issues that no other chelator has done for me, and I have been at it for 30 years.

 

[pubh12]

I tried TTFD one time (one 100mg capsule); it made me feel horrible. Elliot Overton explained that TTFD uses glutathione to work (somehow, some way). My mercury toxicity caused high oxidative stress which caused me to have low glutathione levels for many years. Low glutathione causes bad reactions to TTFD. So I stuck with thiamine hcl (1 gram, 2Xday, with water). My glutathione level increased to normal in about 6 months. Thiamine hcl had lowered my oxidative stress which allowed my glutathione to recover. I never felt the need to try TTFD again; I just stuck with thiamine hcl.

I’m going Thiamine HCL next time I get Thiamine. I don’t think I can afford screwing with glutathione especially if I’m dealing with mercury poisoning.

I found a little info on cysteine vs. selenocysteine that you might find of interest. From memory, selenocysteine is something like 50 times more effective in the conversion of T4 to T3 than cysteine itself is. Perhaps this is why Ray Peat was negative about cysteine? But it does show that cysteine and selenocysteine are very different. Naturally, I can't find that article right now.

But I did find more interesting things about selenium. Some researchers believe that the bonding of mercury to selenium is the main way it damages health. It seems to be a very big deal.

Selenium and Selenoproteins in Health

Selenium is a trace mineral that is essential for health. After being obtained from food and taken up by the liver, selenium performs various physiological functions in the body in the form of selenoproteins, which are best known for their redox activity ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I did a series of DMSA (oral capsules) combined with EDTA by IV (20 treatments) about 20 years ago. Although I did get a little better, overall it didn't do anything of a lasting nature. I had gone through a period of time where the mercury got freed up from storage (?) and I became symptomatic (mostly brain issues) but the mercury could have simply resettled again. I wouldn't do DMSA again.

So taking selenium if you are mercury toxic is a bad idea then?

 

[pubh12]

@Dave Clark
Do you know when mercury accumulates in the cells and tissues etc if it’s still in methylmercury form ? How long can the actual methylmercury last in the body? Does it become inorganic and that why it’s hard to remove ?

 

[Dave Clark]

@Dave Clark
Do you know when mercury accumulates in the cells and tissues etc if it’s still in methylmercury form ? How long can the actual methylmercury last in the body? Does it become inorganic and that why it’s hard to remove ?

My understanding is that methylHg ends up converting to ethylHg {inorganic Hg} and then accumulates in tissues, etc., and can stay in the body for months. At this point, I believe any Hg is bad regardless of what form and how it is ingested. Hg will get into the mitochondria and upset the ETC, and then it is down hill from there in terms of cellular metabolism. The longer one allows Hg to stay in the body without chelation, the more damage to cells, the nervous system, brain, organs, etc., and that is why it is behind many diseases. Hg sets off the reaction of oxidative stress by liberating free iron and copper to create hydroxyl radicals. I think Boyd outlines that well in all of his presentations.

 

[mostlylurking]

I’m going Thiamine HCL next time I get Thiamine. I don’t think I can afford screwing with glutathione especially if I’m dealing with mercury poisoning.

So taking selenium if you are mercury toxic is a bad idea then?

I found thiamine hcl to be very positive for my situation because it vastly lowered/resolved my oxidative stress. I think that because it lowered the oxidative stress it improved my glutathione situation by reducing the burden on it. Mercury increases oxidative stress, which would put a burden on the glutathione "cycle". Because TTFD thiamine utilizes glutathione (some how, some way), I don't think it is a good choice if there is a deficiency in glutathione (GSH).

Mercury causes oxidative stress.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780323884624000171

Thiamine lowers oxidative stress.

How Can Something As Simple as Thiamine Cause So Many Problems? - Hormones Matter

Is thiamine deficiency too simple to explain the devastating nature of the systemic adverse reactions to some vaccines and medications?

www.hormonesmatter.com

Beyond Deficiency: Using Thiamine as a Metabolic Stimulant - Hormones Matter

Thiamine is functioning as a metabolic stimulant to restore energy metabolism inhibited by factors unrelated to nutritional status.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Glutathione - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"GSH (glutathione) protects cells by neutralising (reducing) reactive oxygen species."
-end paste-
Thiamine makes oxidative metabolism work efficiently so that less reactive oxygen species (ROS) is created. If less ROS is created, the burden on the glutathione system is reduced which allows the reduced glutathione (GSH) supply to recover.

Glutathione - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Glutathione exists in reduced (GSH) and oxidized (GSSG) states.[14] The ratio of reduced glutathione to oxidized glutathione within cells is a measure of cellular oxidative stress[15][16] where increased GSSG-to-GSH ratio is indicative of greater oxidative stress. In healthy cells and tissue, more than 90% of the total glutathione pool is in the reduced form (GSH), with the remainder in the disulfide form (GSSG).[17]"
-end paste-

My own problem with low glutathione (GSH) resolved after taking thiamine hcl in high dose. This was proven by blood tests after taking high dose oral thiamine hcl for 6 months. I follow Dr. Costantini's protocol.

No, taking selenium if you are mercury toxic would be very beneficial. Mercury bonds with selenium making it unavailable to the body which causes a selenium deficiency. Selenium deficiency is very bad. Selenium deficiency matches the symptoms of mercury toxicity. However, care must be taken not to overdo taking selenium because too much selenium can be problematic/toxic. Testing on a regular basis would probably be a good idea if you decide to take more than 200mcg/day of selenium.

Rethinking mercury: the role of selenium in the pathophysiology of mercury toxicity - PubMed

The interaction with selenium is a central feature in mercury toxicity. This interaction is complex depending on a number of features such as the form of mercury, the form of selenium, the organ and dose. The previously suggested "protective effect" of selenium against mercury toxicity may in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Conclusions: The interaction with selenium is a central feature in mercury toxicity. This interaction is complex depending on a number of features such as the form of mercury, the form of selenium, the organ and dose. The previously suggested "protective effect" of selenium against mercury toxicity may in fact be backwards. The effect of mercury is to produce a selenium deficiency state and a direct inhibition of selenium's role in controlling the intracellular redox environment in organisms. Selenium supplementation, with limitations, may have a beneficial role in restoring adequate selenium status from the deficiency state and mitigating the toxicity of mercury."
-end paste-

I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice. I'm just trying to share what I have learned on my own health journey.

 

[Dave Clark]

I found thiamine hcl to be very positive for my situation because it vastly lowered/resolved my oxidative stress. I think that because it lowered the oxidative stress it improved my glutathione situation by reducing the burden on it. Mercury increases oxidative stress, which would put a burden on the glutathione "cycle". Because TTFD thiamine utilizes glutathione (some how, some way), I don't think it is a good choice if there is a deficiency in glutathione (GSH).

Mercury causes oxidative stress.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780323884624000171

Thiamine lowers oxidative stress.

How Can Something As Simple as Thiamine Cause So Many Problems? - Hormones Matter

Is thiamine deficiency too simple to explain the devastating nature of the systemic adverse reactions to some vaccines and medications?

www.hormonesmatter.com

Beyond Deficiency: Using Thiamine as a Metabolic Stimulant - Hormones Matter

Thiamine is functioning as a metabolic stimulant to restore energy metabolism inhibited by factors unrelated to nutritional status.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Glutathione - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"GSH (glutathione) protects cells by neutralising (reducing) reactive oxygen species."
-end paste-
Thiamine makes oxidative metabolism work efficiently so that less reactive oxygen species (ROS) is created. If less ROS is created, the burden on the glutathione system is reduced which allows the reduced glutathione (GSH) supply to recover.

Glutathione - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Glutathione exists in reduced (GSH) and oxidized (GSSG) states.[14] The ratio of reduced glutathione to oxidized glutathione within cells is a measure of cellular oxidative stress[15][16] where increased GSSG-to-GSH ratio is indicative of greater oxidative stress. In healthy cells and tissue, more than 90% of the total glutathione pool is in the reduced form (GSH), with the remainder in the disulfide form (GSSG).[17]"
-end paste-

My own problem with low glutathione (GSH) resolved after taking thiamine hcl in high dose. This was proven by blood tests after taking high dose oral thiamine hcl for 6 months. I follow Dr. Costantini's protocol.

No, taking selenium if you are mercury toxic would be very beneficial. Mercury bonds with selenium making it unavailable to the body which causes a selenium deficiency. Selenium deficiency is very bad. Selenium deficiency matches the symptoms of mercury toxicity. However, care must be taken not to overdo taking selenium because too much selenium can be problematic/toxic. Testing on a regular basis would probably be a good idea if you decide to take more than 200mcg/day of selenium.

Rethinking mercury: the role of selenium in the pathophysiology of mercury toxicity - PubMed

The interaction with selenium is a central feature in mercury toxicity. This interaction is complex depending on a number of features such as the form of mercury, the form of selenium, the organ and dose. The previously suggested "protective effect" of selenium against mercury toxicity may in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Conclusions: The interaction with selenium is a central feature in mercury toxicity. This interaction is complex depending on a number of features such as the form of mercury, the form of selenium, the organ and dose. The previously suggested "protective effect" of selenium against mercury toxicity may in fact be backwards. The effect of mercury is to produce a selenium deficiency state and a direct inhibition of selenium's role in controlling the intracellular redox environment in organisms. Selenium supplementation, with limitations, may have a beneficial role in restoring adequate selenium status from the deficiency state and mitigating the toxicity of mercury."
-end paste-

I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice. I'm just trying to share what I have learned on my own health journey.

I have read in the past that mercury binds up selenium, and believe that I also read that in testing you can look like you have high levels of selenium, but all that selenium is bound with Hg and not available to do what selenium is supposed to do. So, many people that test for selenium, or read the scare stories of selenium toxicity will stop supplementing thinking they have more than enough, but they really do not, and this is not good if you are Hg toxic.

 

[mostlylurking]

Hg will get into the mitochondria and upset the ETC, and then it is down hill from there in terms of cellular metabolism

You may find this article of interest:

Beyond Deficiency: Using Thiamine as a Metabolic Stimulant - Hormones Matter

Thiamine is functioning as a metabolic stimulant to restore energy metabolism inhibited by factors unrelated to nutritional status.

www.hormonesmatter.com

 

[mostlylurking]

I have read in the past that mercury binds up selenium, and believe that I also read that in testing you can look like you have high levels of selenium, but all that selenium is bound with Hg and not available to do what selenium is supposed to do. So, many people that test for selenium, or read the scare stories of selenium toxicity will stop supplementing thinking they have more than enough, but they really do not, and this is not good if you are Hg toxic.

You may be describing my husband. He tested high in selenium and is afraid to supplement it. I tested low in selenium myself and I know I have a long history of heavy metals toxicity, including mercury. Mercury was first and foremost and I believe it reduced my body's ability to clear other heavy metals, including lead. Thiamine is known to resolve lead poisoning; more info on that is available in veterinary research.
The therapeutic potential of thiamine for treatment of experimentally induced subacute lead poisoning in sheep - Comparative Clinical Pathology

Lead Poisoning in Animals - Toxicology - MSD Veterinary Manual

Learn about the veterinary topic of Lead Poisoning in Animals. Find specific details on this topic and related topics from the MSD Vet Manual.

www.msdvetmanual.com

 

[mostlylurking]

@Dave Clark This article may be of interest to you:

Mercury, Parkinson's Disease, and Thiamine - Hormones Matter

The researchers who detected mercury in the brain in patients with Parkinson’s disease concluded that we should stop burning fossil fuels.

www.hormonesmatter.com

@pubh12: please read the above article.

 

[Dave Clark]

@Dave Clark This article may be of interest to you:

Mercury, Parkinson's Disease, and Thiamine - Hormones Matter

The researchers who detected mercury in the brain in patients with Parkinson’s disease concluded that we should stop burning fossil fuels.

www.hormonesmatter.com

@pubh12: please read the above article.

Good articles. I have been on that website before, good info on thiamine, Hg, lead, etc. I currently use a fairly high dose of thiamine, TTFD, and have no issues with it that I know of. Certainly, thiamine is going to be a big help with Hg issues, however, I still am reluctant to use lipoic acid, as I believe as Haley has said, that it can kick Hg out of the energy pathway in the cell and put it into circulation {not as much of a problem if NBMI is being used}. All of these sulfur based compounds will help with Hg, but permanent chelators like NBMI with good binders {like MCP} and good elimination channels are key to Hg removal in the body. Also, regarding lead and EDTA, Haley has shown that EDTA will cause a rise in releasing free iron and hydroxyl radical production, and EDTA does not hold tight to Hg. Good to know about lead and thiamine.

 

[mostlylurking]

I still am reluctant to use lipoic acid

Me too; I've never used it.

EDTA will cause a rise in releasing free iron

EDTA chelates iron out of the body very well. I was hooked up to EDTA IVs for months with lots of older men who were benefiting from the reduction of iron (and other heavy metals) and regaining their health after their cardiologists had told them they couldn't have anymore bypass surgery and they were told to go home and prepare to die. As a group, they were really angry with main stream medicine and overjoyed with their newly improved health. That was back around 1994-1996 and was a tremendous eye opener for me.

EDTA does not hold tight to Hg

No it doesn't work for mercury, even with DMSA thrown in before the IV (been there, done that) . EDTA worked well for my cadmium, lead, arsenic, and iron though so it did take some of the toxin burden off my body so I could recover from the organo-phosphate insecticide poisoning. EDTA doesn't work for aluminum either.

I was fortunate to have been with an excellent doctor who knew what he was doing. He had me taking great handfuls of vitamin supplements which included 16 big b-complex capsules a day, which amounted to 1.6 grams of thiamine hcl daily. The doctor also always gave a vitamin supplement IV after the EDTA IV. I learned a year or so ago that chelating someone who is thiamine deficient can prove fatal for the patient. Thiamine should always be supplemented when getting chelated because the increased circulating heavy metals will cause a thiamine deficiency. There's evidence that for lead poisoning, EDTA + thiamine works better than EDTA alone.

 

[pubh12]

@mostlylurking @Dave Clark

I don’t suppose you know if mercury issues would make one intolerant to aspirin would you? Everytime I take one I get mucous in my lungs that I have to cough out and extremely red and burning eyes. I recall reading some connection of mercury and salicylates but cant find the information again

 

[Dave Clark]

@mostlylurking @Dave Clark

I don’t suppose you know if mercury issues would make one intolerant to aspirin would you? Everytime I take one I get mucous in my lungs that I have to cough out and extremely red and burning eyes. I recall reading some connection of mercury and salicylates but cant find the information again

All that I recall is that if you have Hg toxicity, which raises liver enzymes, taking aspirin may raise them even higher and cause liver toxicity. But, I guess it depends on how much Hg you have, and how much aspirin you take. If you react to aspirin, don't take it. I tried to do the Peat aspirin thing, and in about a month, I started getting nose bleeds. As soon as I stopped the aspirin, they went away, and vitamin K does not stop the bleeding effects of aspirin, Peat has even said that, and I know it personally. You could just be having a reaction to salicylates as many people do, and may have nothing to do with Hg.

 

[mostlylurking]

@mostlylurking @Dave Clark

I don’t suppose you know if mercury issues would make one intolerant to aspirin would you? Everytime I take one I get mucous in my lungs that I have to cough out and extremely red and burning eyes. I recall reading some connection of mercury and salicylates but cant find the information again

Sorry, no; I've got no info about that. Sounds awful.

 

[Blue Water]

I had similar issues, back when I was taking finasteride. I stopped and recovered most of the way. Are you taking any medications or 5-ar inhibitors?

 

[pubh12]

I had similar issues, back when I was taking finasteride. I stopped and recovered most of the way. Are you taking any medications or 5-ar inhibitors?

I’ve stopped basically everything I was taking when this occurred and nothing resolved unfortunately. Everything aside from Nadolol my beta blocker, but I stopped it for two weeks and no change.

 

[pubh12]

@Dave Clark

Dave, do you think it would actually be biologically possible for mercury to inhibit Acetylcholinesterase Synthesis or function for an entire year at a significant level ?All the info I look up , it seems even in the dangerous organophosphates that Acetylcholinesterase inhibiton will eventually come around again in a few months. Maybe that’s wrong though. I just don’t want to be chasing something that doesn’t make sense. If Acetylcholinesterase inhibiton wouldn’t look like it does in my case , perhaps I’m looking in the wrong direction.

I started taking 100mcg of selenium. We will see how that goes then maybe I’ll add in NAC. Unfortunately it also seems like both of these increase aceytlcholine too which I don’t want. But acetylcholinesterase inhibition is the strongest lead I have.

 

[Dave Clark]

@Dave Clark

Dave, do you think it would actually be biologically possible for mercury to inhibit Acetylcholinesterase Synthesis or function for an entire year at a significant level ?All the info I look up , it seems even in the dangerous organophosphates that Acetylcholinesterase inhibiton will eventually come around again in a few months. Maybe that’s wrong though. I just don’t want to be chasing something that doesn’t make sense. If Acetylcholinesterase inhibiton wouldn’t look like it does in my case , perhaps I’m looking in the wrong direction.

I started taking 100mcg of selenium. We will see how that goes then maybe I’ll add in NAC. Unfortunately it also seems like both of these increase aceytlcholine too which I don’t want. But acetylcholinesterase inhibition is the strongest lead I have.

All the literature I have ever read says that Hg can inhibit ACh. I do not know to what extent, but this is one reason why anyone, even without the problem would want to try and design a diet that is strictly, or at least mostly 'organic'. That is what I have done over the years, it isn't done overnight. I look at everything I consume, and ask myself if it is clean of chemicals, and if not, I replace it with organic { and I know that isn't 100%, but it is the best we can do}. I would focus on the ACh inhibition, and not so much on things that mildly increase acetylcholine, because we need some to be healthy. As long as the acetylcholine isn't building up due to ACh inhibition.
NAC has shown in studies to reduce the need for atropine, so maybe it has an anti-cholinergic effect. If selenium does inhibit ACh, then maybe keep the dose low. Getting rid of mercury in any way possible is going to help overall health.