B1

[theonlyway]

Did you watch the Parkinson's patient progress videos? Pretty amazing! They are very short and in Italian but you can see the amazing and very fast improvement.

Yes, it’s really remarkable and exciting. I hate to see anyone suffer and want all to heal so i
Get excited about things like this.

I’m also going to stop coffee for a while. I hate too. I love the whole thing about making and tasting it. I forgot if I asked you, do you take any cofactors or other B’s to prevent any depleting effect? I wish I could just stay in a facility that will just monitor and IV me lol

 

[KCM]

I am truly grateful to him. Big pharma is creating costumers for life with fillers

Got any links on the harm of different supplement fillers? Interested to see, I try to get only powders where I can

 

[mostlylurking]

Yes, it’s really remarkable and exciting. I hate to see anyone suffer and want all to heal so i
Get excited about things like this.

I’m also going to stop coffee for a while. I hate too. I love the whole thing about making and tasting it. I forgot if I asked you, do you take any cofactors or other B’s to prevent any depleting effect? I wish I could just stay in a facility that will just monitor and IV me lol

Stopping coffee is a very good idea. Don't fret too much about depleting other things. Do read Costantini's site. It says there that he wasn't big on supplementing other things for his patients, maybe just 75mg magnesium/week was the only thing and he had people on high dose thiamine for something like 5-7 years without issues. He encouraged them to eat a good diet and to cut their coffee back to one cup a day, taken away from their thiamine dose. I'm not saying he was right about this but this is what he decided to do when treating these people. He didn't want to cause any stomach upsets. He helped a lot of people. He died of covid in 2020.

Here's what I take:
thiamine hcl, 1 gram 2Xday
niacinamide, 90mg 4Xday
riboflavin, 90mg 4Xday
magnesium glycinate 600mg 2Xday (=about 600mg magnesium, I think)
Pure Formulations b-complex here: B-Complex Plus - 120 Capsules, 1/day
pregnenolone, 1/4 teas 1Xday
progesterone, about 40mg 1Xday
Acella brand natural desiccated thyroid (prescription), 135mg/day

I consume a lot of dairy for the calcium. I'm 72. The thyroid is my only prescription. I eat shellfish for the minerals.

 

[Dean]

Is there a form that doesn't cause or is less likely to cause the body odor issue...or a way to mitigate it when it occurs? It was years ago that I tried supplementing with thiamin but very quickly I started to reek of something that was like an onion with BO. I have fragrance/chemical sensitivity issues so dousing myself in cologne or something to mask it isn't an option.

 

[mostlylurking]

Is there a form that doesn't cause or is less likely to cause the body odor issue...or a way to mitigate it when it occurs? It was years ago that I tried supplementing with thiamin but very quickly I started to reek of something that was like an onion with BO. I have fragrance/chemical sensitivity issues so dousing myself in cologne or something to mask it isn't an option.

There's discussion about that issue in this article:

Navigating Thiamine Supplements- Hormones Matter

Understanding the different forms of vitamin B1.

www.hormonesmatter.com

 

[Dean]

There's discussion about that issue in this article:

Navigating Thiamine Supplements- Hormones Matter

Understanding the different forms of vitamin B1.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Thanks for the link.

Lipothiamine. Shame that the only one that seems to be available is in enteric coated capsules. Last time I took something with enteric coated caps I ended up pulled over on the side of the road, squatted over a ditch trying to pass what felt like the mother of all bowel movements; but alas, it was just a cramp.

 

[Nebula]

I don't think Ray is right about this. It isn't his area of expertise. That said, a big reason why I stuck with the hcl variety is because Ray said somewhere that he trusted it more than the newer versions. Ray has also said that a person shouldn't ever need more than 1500mg of it, but I didn't get full benefit until I got up to the 2 grams recommended by Dr. Costantini.

I wonder if the benefit of gram doses of thiamine is because it acts like a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor. I found an article analyzing if this is the main benefit of high dose thiamine.

View: https://medium.com/eds-perspectives/why-does-high-dose-thiamine-relieve-fatigue-in-individuals-with-diverse-neurological-conditions-40a3502f6439

 

[mostlylurking]

I wonder if the benefit of gram doses of thiamine is because it acts like a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor. I found an article analyzing if this is the main benefit of high dose thiamine.

View: https://medium.com/eds-perspectives/why-does-high-dose-thiamine-relieve-fatigue-in-individuals-with-diverse-neurological-conditions-40a3502f6439

Thanks for the link; good article! A carbonic anydrase inhibitor would inhibit carbonic anhydrase which reduces carbon dioxide, effectively ending the reduction of carbon dioxide, right? Thiamine allows carbon dioxide to be created as the end product of oxidative metabolism so I think it massively increases carbon dioxide in the system.

Oxidative metabolism with thiamine results in ATP with carbon dioxide as the end product. In thiamine deficiency, you get the "cancer metabolism" which is very inefficient with the end product of lactic acid. The body can make some energy with lactic acid via another process but it is very inefficient. Thiamine is used as a cofactor for several critical enzymes in the process.

When thiamine is abundant, oxidative metabolism works which lowers lactic acid (ph goes up, inflammation goes down) and carbon dioxide increases which improves the amount of oxygen that red blood cells can carry. The Bohr effect, yes?

I found a multitude of benefits from high dose thiamine. Some that were noticed within 45 minutes were complete resolution of inflammation/pain and normalization of low body temperature. Oxidative metabolism was restored.

 

[theonlyway]

That’s a great article. I love that there weren’t really any side effects with such high doses.

My primary care is recommending lipothiamine which has some questionable fillers. It is 50mg and at this point and reading some of the reviews I’m down to try it I think. Some say it resolved their elevated bp, tachycardia, anxiety, etc.

 

[ecstatichamster]

you can get allithiamine with no fillers if you go with the powder. Ecological Formulas have capsules that have excipients, but they sell pure powder that does not contain excipients. It is not cheap.

 

[theonlyway]

you can get allithiamine with no fillers if you go with the powder. Ecological Formulas have capsules that have excipients, but they sell pure powder that does not contain excipients.

I appreciate that. I think she recommends the lipo because of my gut issues. I think she wants to make sure it don’t irritate it any more. Some say the ttfd affects their gut harshly because it gets the muscle moving again and people start experiencing diarrhea, bloating and upset from my understanding?

 

[ecstatichamster]

I appreciate that. I think she recommends the lipo because of my gut issues. I think she wants to make sure it don’t irritate it any more. Some say the ttfd affects their gut harshly because it gets the muscle moving again and people start experiencing diarrhea, bloating and upset from my understanding?

I have not found thiamine HCl irritating in the least for myself or any family member.

The fat soluble forms may be more irritating, who really knows. I would try them though. The cheap HCl form is what I‘d use first. I’ve tried many of them including TTFD, which I don’t think offers any additional benefit.

 

[Peatness]

Got any links on the harm of different supplement fillers? Interested to see, I try to get only powders where I can

No I don't but if you search the forum there are discussions on the topic. One of Dr. Peat's articles talks about this but I can't recall which one. Try this thread

Hidden Nasties In Our Food

"Since Stefansson's observations nearly a century ago, most Americans have become accustomed to the taste of half-spoiled meat, as part of the process of adapting to an industrial-commercial food system. Tests done by food technologists have found that most Americans prefer the taste of...

raypeatforum.com

 

[mostlylurking]

I appreciate that. I think she recommends the lipo because of my gut issues. I think she wants to make sure it don’t irritate it any more. Some say the ttfd affects their gut harshly because it gets the muscle moving again and people start experiencing diarrhea, bloating and upset from my understanding?

I hadn't heard that about ttfd irritating the gut. High dose thiamine hcl didn't upset or irritate my irritated gut, it helped to heal it. Ray Peat told me that thiamine and magnesium help to heal the gut. High dose oral thiamine hcl normalized my gut function.

I am afraid of all things lipo. Lipo = what exactly? It's important to understand exactly what this is. Is it PUFA? Also, how does the thiamine manage to get through the duodenum lining when encased in the mystery lopo goo? When reading about "thiamine and intestine" on PubMed, I'm left with the idea that thiamine itself has an affinity for the small intestinal lining where it is absorbed; I wonder if that is lost when enclosing thiamine in liposomal technology?

Phospholipid vesicles as carriers in aquaculture: preparation and stability study of thiamine hydrochloride-loaded liposomes - PubMed

The aim of this work is to study liposomes as carriers of nutrients and therapeutic agents in aquaculture with Venerupis decussatus and Venerupis pullastra larvae. Multilamellar (MLVs) and large unilamellar (LUVs) vesicles were prepared from a commercial mixture of soy phosphatidylcholine, rich...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The aim of this work is to study liposomes as carriers of nutrients and therapeutic agents in aquaculture with Venerupis decussatus and Venerupis pullastra larvae. Multilamellar (MLVs) and large unilamellar (LUVs) vesicles were prepared from a commercial mixture of soy phosphatidylcholine, rich in unsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids, cholesterol, and hydrated with a solution of vitamin B1 both in distilled and sea water."

Mechanism of thiamine uptake by human jejunal brush-border membrane vesicles - PubMed

Thiamine, a water-soluble vitamin, is essential for normal cellular functions, growth and development. Thiamine deficiency leads to significant clinical problems and occurs under a variety of conditions. To date, however, little is known about the mechanism of thiamine absorption in the native...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Thiamine, a water-soluble vitamin, is essential for normal cellular functions, growth and development. Thiamine deficiency leads to significant clinical problems and occurs under a variety of conditions. To date, however, little is known about the mechanism of thiamine absorption in the native human small intestine. The objective of this study was, therefore, to characterize the mechanism of thiamine transport across the brush-border membrane (BBM) of human small intestine. With the use of purified BBM vesicles (BBMV) isolated from the jejunum of organ donors, thiamine uptake was found to be 1) independent of Na(+) but markedly stimulated by an outwardly directed H(+) gradient (pH 5.5(in)/pH 7.5(out)); 2) competitively inhibited by the cation transport inhibitor amiloride (inhibitor constant of 0.12 mM); 3) sensitive to temperature and osmolarity of the incubation medium; 4) significantly inhibited by thiamine structural analogs (amprolium, oxythiamine, and pyrithiamine), but not by unrelated organic cations (tetraethylammonium, N-methylnicotinamide, or choline); 5) not affected by the addition of ATP to the inside and outside of the BBMV; 6) potential insensitive; and 7) saturable as a function of thiamine concentration with an apparent Michaelis-Menten constant of 0.61 +/- 0.08 microM and a maximal velocity of 1.00 +/- 0.47 pmol. mg protein(-1). 10 s(-1). Carrier-mediated thiamine uptake was also found in BBMV of human ileum. These data demonstrate the existence of a Na(+)-independent, pH-dependent, amiloride-sensitive, electroneutral carrier-mediated mechanism for thiamine absorption in native human small intestinal BBMV."

If you and your doctor are concerned about your gut getting irritated, perhaps getting injections of thiamine hcl would be the way to go?

 

[theonlyway]

I hadn't heard that about ttfd irritating the gut. High dose thiamine hcl didn't upset or irritate my irritated gut, it helped to heal it. Ray Peat told me that thiamine and magnesium help to heal the gut. High dose oral thiamine hcl normalized my gut function.

I am afraid of all things lipo. Lipo = what exactly? It's important to understand exactly what this is. Is it PUFA? Also, how does the thiamine manage to get through the duodenum lining when encased in the mystery lopo goo? When reading about "thiamine and intestine" on PubMed, I'm left with the idea that thiamine itself has an affinity for the small intestinal lining where it is absorbed; I wonder if that is lost when enclosing thiamine in liposomal technology?

Phospholipid vesicles as carriers in aquaculture: preparation and stability study of thiamine hydrochloride-loaded liposomes - PubMed

The aim of this work is to study liposomes as carriers of nutrients and therapeutic agents in aquaculture with Venerupis decussatus and Venerupis pullastra larvae. Multilamellar (MLVs) and large unilamellar (LUVs) vesicles were prepared from a commercial mixture of soy phosphatidylcholine, rich...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The aim of this work is to study liposomes as carriers of nutrients and therapeutic agents in aquaculture with Venerupis decussatus and Venerupis pullastra larvae. Multilamellar (MLVs) and large unilamellar (LUVs) vesicles were prepared from a commercial mixture of soy phosphatidylcholine, rich in unsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids, cholesterol, and hydrated with a solution of vitamin B1 both in distilled and sea water."

Mechanism of thiamine uptake by human jejunal brush-border membrane vesicles - PubMed

Thiamine, a water-soluble vitamin, is essential for normal cellular functions, growth and development. Thiamine deficiency leads to significant clinical problems and occurs under a variety of conditions. To date, however, little is known about the mechanism of thiamine absorption in the native...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Thiamine, a water-soluble vitamin, is essential for normal cellular functions, growth and development. Thiamine deficiency leads to significant clinical problems and occurs under a variety of conditions. To date, however, little is known about the mechanism of thiamine absorption in the native human small intestine. The objective of this study was, therefore, to characterize the mechanism of thiamine transport across the brush-border membrane (BBM) of human small intestine. With the use of purified BBM vesicles (BBMV) isolated from the jejunum of organ donors, thiamine uptake was found to be 1) independent of Na(+) but markedly stimulated by an outwardly directed H(+) gradient (pH 5.5(in)/pH 7.5(out)); 2) competitively inhibited by the cation transport inhibitor amiloride (inhibitor constant of 0.12 mM); 3) sensitive to temperature and osmolarity of the incubation medium; 4) significantly inhibited by thiamine structural analogs (amprolium, oxythiamine, and pyrithiamine), but not by unrelated organic cations (tetraethylammonium, N-methylnicotinamide, or choline); 5) not affected by the addition of ATP to the inside and outside of the BBMV; 6) potential insensitive; and 7) saturable as a function of thiamine concentration with an apparent Michaelis-Menten constant of 0.61 +/- 0.08 microM and a maximal velocity of 1.00 +/- 0.47 pmol. mg protein(-1). 10 s(-1). Carrier-mediated thiamine uptake was also found in BBMV of human ileum. These data demonstrate the existence of a Na(+)-independent, pH-dependent, amiloride-sensitive, electroneutral carrier-mediated mechanism for thiamine absorption in native human small intestinal BBMV."

If you and your doctor are concerned about your gut getting irritated, perhaps getting injections of thiamine hcl would be the way to go?

Honestly I think you’ve comforted me into just going at B1. The lipo is coated which I don’t understand why. I would rather avoid any extra additives. Interesting about the phosphatidylcholine. I’ve read some people incorporating that with b1, complex and mag. I told my wife last night “what if I don’t have tbi, ptsd, that maybe all these symptoms are from thiamine deficiency “.

 

[mostlylurking]

Honestly I think you’ve comforted me into just going at B1. The lipo is coated which I don’t understand why. I would rather avoid any extra additives. Interesting about the phosphatidylcholine. I’ve read some people incorporating that with b1, complex and mag. I told my wife last night “what if I don’t have tbi, ptsd, that maybe all these symptoms are from thiamine deficiency “.

It's certainly possible that your troubles are from thiamine deficiency. Long term stress uses up the body's supply. You could simply give b1 a try, see what happens.

 

[magnesiumania]

That sounds relieving to hear. I’ve listened to the reactions and how we typically have to push through them. I just don’t want to get palpitations. I don’t recall ever having poor reactions to b vitamins but just want to try and mitigate any potential issue. What B’s are you using? Did you start under 100 for thiamine? I have topical mag too and epsom

sounds reasonable

 

[Vins7]

It's certainly possible that your troubles are from thiamine deficiency. Long term stress uses up the body's supply. You could simply give b1 a try, see what happens.

Would it be advisable to take thiamine with other supplements besides magnesium citrate? Could you tell me what product you take, what brand is the b1?

 

[mostlylurking]

I wouldn't take magnesium citrate; the citrate part isn't good for you, per Ray Peat. I take magnesium glycinate. I get the pure bulk powder thiamine hcl from bulksupplements.com. I've also bought it from purebulk.com. I also take a good b-complex.

 

[Vins7]

I wouldn't take magnesium citrate; the citrate part isn't good for you, per Ray Peat. I take magnesium glycinate. I get the pure bulk powder thiamine hcl from bulksupplements.com. I've also bought it from purebulk.com. I also take a good b-complex.

Thank you bro