Can Sleep Position Affect Your Health ?

[DMF]

Is the left side better - healthier - because it's "easier" on the heart ?

 

[not_James_Bond]

@DMF What are your thoughts on inclined bed therapy
Inclined Bed Therapy - Sleeping With The Head End Of The Bed Elevated | Ray Peat Forum

 

[hei]

I see I see, I was under the impression that lateral was the "best" position under the Buteyko teachings.

To your 3rd point, do you read Russian or have copies in English to share? It's unfortunate that we cannot share actual science in relation to your Buteyko claims.

Rebuttals to your "general points":
1. This is also the study that got me into firm surface side sleeping. However, this link does not discuss lateral sleeping in relation to supine sleeping, nor the superiority of lateral sleeping in relation to supine sleeping. What is discussed is that in nature we find natural positions to support the spine. Michael gives an example of Tibetan caravaneers sleeping on their shins, and while this clearly works for them, we aren't debating the superiority of this position are we?
2. Claims like this need to be accompanied with some sort of scientific backing, do you have that?
3. Again, these sweeping cvlaims seem like a bit of a convenient stretch, this is not a scientific claim, this is an opinion.
4. Not sure I have a rebuttal this one as the claim here is rather unspecific.
5. That's good to know, it would seem different people react differently to different stimuli.

Let's talk about sleep apnea. Firstly, Association does not equal causation. Back sleeping does not cause sleep apnea, evidenced by the fact that millions of people sleep on their backs without any apnea issues, myself included, though to your point, many do without knowing it.

The difference likely lies in health, weight, inflammation, etc. If you are overweight and unhealthy, the chances that you mouth breathe are quite high, your tonsels may be inflamed narrowing your throat, and so the moment your roll onto your back you start to snore and block your airway.

This of course gives the supine position a bad rap. Unfortunately, none of these studies mention mouth vs. nasal breathing, which I think is still the main factor here.

The thinking here is again, a bit biased and flawed. The Cheyne-Stokes study and image referenced are from patients with heart disease and diagnosed OSA, this is not a healthy population, and study results from an unhealthy population cannot be extrapolated onto a healthy population absent of similar diagnoses.

Yes, if we take people with OSA and place them in a supine position, they will experience worsened OSA, however these are clearly unhealthy individuals and their reactions to things are not going to be relatable to a healthier population. Your rebuttal to this would obviously be that "healthy people will not experience OSA regardless of the sleep position" see what I did there? XD Just playin though.

Let's take a look at the relation ship between nasal/mouth breathing and OSA, as this paints a very obvious story.

Relationship between oral breathing and nasal obstruction in patients with obstructive sleep apnea​

- "...the switching point from nasal to oro-nasal breathing in patients with complaints of snoring or sleep apnea was statistically higher than that in normal subjects."
- "These results suggest that patients with complaints of snoring or sleep apnea can easily breathe through the mouth during sleep, and that chronic nasal obstruction may induce obstructive sleep apnea."

Effect of nasal or oral breathing route on upper airway resistance during sleep​

- "In addition, obstructive (but not central) apnoeas and hypopnoeas were profoundly more frequent when breathing orally (apnoea-hypopnoea index 43+/-6) than nasally (1.5+/-0.5)"
- "Upper airway resistance during sleep and the propensity to obstructive sleep apnoea are significantly lower while breathing nasally rather than orally."

Nasal obstruction as a risk factor for sleep-disordered breathing. The University of Wisconsin Sleep and Respiratory Research Group​

- "Experimentally produced nasal obstruction increases resistance and leads to sleep-disordered breathing events, including apnea, hypopnea, and snoring."
- "Participants who often or almost always experienced nighttime symptoms of rhinitis (5 or more nights a month) were significantly (p < 0.0001) more likely to report habitual snoring (3 to 7 nights a week), chronic excessive daytime sleepiness, or chronic nonrestorative sleep than were those who rarely or never had symptoms."

For a healthy individual, someone who's not overweight, metabolically or immunologically compromised (i.e. allergies, rhinitis, sinusitis, etc), sleep position likely has very little to do with their breathing, though I'm not familiar with a study that actually looks at this.

In closing, show me a study with healthy individuals without diagnosed OSA, heart dieease, etc. breathing through their noses, on their backs with and without an elevation of the head and/or torso, with disordered breathing, and I will change my mind.

This is a worry. I have trouble breathing through my nose in general, I try to do it during the day but at night the allergic rhinitis flares up and seals my nose shut. It always happens around bedtime even if I went all day without any allergy symptoms. Not sure what can be done, even when it doesn't seem inflamed it normally feels like not enough air is getting through; I couldn't breathe through it at all as a child (allergy went undiagnosed until I was 27) and think that the airways are probably very small; my face has a very underdeveloped appearance and also my jaws are very small and narrow.

 

[BearWithMe]

@hei

I can recommend Cranial Sacral Therapy, which is quite subtle but can have powerful long lasting effects. And there is a specific technique in Chiropractic that in the 1980's was called "Nasal Specific Technique". I have done both, and now still enjoy Cranial Sacral therapy. The Nasal Specific is basically invasive- forcing a balloon up your nasal turbinates for just a few seconds, and you will cough and sputter momentarily afterwards. I experienced this therapy only 3X over a few weeks from my Chiropractor in the mid 80s, and my face changed with bones having moved obviously... the temporal lobes most noticeably, and also my face became more symmetrical. I was not worried about that as everyone has some Asymmetry. It definitely opened up my nasal passageways.

Then 15 years later I did get surgery for a deviated septum, it was moderate not severe, and that wasn't done for cosmetic reasons but because of decreased nasal passageways on that side. That also had the effect of increasing symmetry. ( I would hazard a guess that at least half of this deviation was due to sports injuries, and half ish due to my natural situation.)

Hope that helps. Cheers.

How To Fix Asymmetrical Skull ?

Been researching craniofacial development for 5 years. Some pointers to start with. - The skull will continue adapting to the forces it is subjected to throughout your life. The main cranial sutures never fuse. - Changing cranial form will not take a decade, no matter your age. 6-12 months of...

raypeatforum.com

 

[hei]

Haha, yeah I had forgotten that my face is also noticeably asymmetric, in photos it always looks like I have my head turned but it's just that the shape of my head is defective. Not really sure if that stuff would help with actual airway size though.

 

[BearWithMe]

Haha, yeah I had forgotten that my face is also noticeably asymmetric, in photos it always looks like I have my head turned but it's just that the shape of my head is defective. Not really sure if that stuff would help with actual airway size though.

Read the post by AlaskaJono I quoted

 

[hei]

Well he didn't say how bad it was to start with. I guess any improvement would be good but I'm just very doubtful that it would actually work for me.
Also do all chiropractors do that or just some? I don't know how to find one that does it.
I was interested in getting a MARPE appliance but I don't know how to find anyone that does that, either.

 

[itchaboyagain]

This is a worry. I have trouble breathing through my nose in general, I try to do it during the day but at night the allergic rhinitis flares up and seals my nose shut. It always happens around bedtime even if I went all day without any allergy symptoms. Not sure what can be done, even when it doesn't seem inflamed it normally feels like not enough air is getting through; I couldn't breathe through it at all as a child (allergy went undiagnosed until I was 27) and think that the airways are probably very small; my face has a very underdeveloped appearance and also my jaws are very small and narrow.

Hmmm, you bring up some good points. Getting past genetic physical limitations is difficult...

1. I assume you are eating a low inflammatory diet to help with allergies as much as possible?
2. Do you have an air purifier in your bedroom?
3. Have you ever tried inclined bed therapy? This is known to assist with allergies and mucus build up.
4. Have you tried any nasal dilators to see if they help at all, either internal or external? There's also the Pronto Clear dilator by Rhinomed that might be worth trying? You can always utilize your own essential oils for it. Here is a study investigating the efficacy of essential oils in rhinitis cases. Seems there could be some efficacy in it for you. I'm not sure which oils might be best for this, and since you have allergies it's entirely possible that you could react to some, while others may help, it's a topic that may require some experimentation on your part.

Beyond all of that, it would seem your only option is some kind of medical intervention? There may be more things you can do for the rhinitis and swelling of the mucosal barriers at night, as that seems to be the biggest issue for you, but I'm not entirely sure what that might be.

Aerin is non-invasive option that might be worth looking into? And then of course there are a million different invasive options to look into that I'm not the least bit familiar with.

 

[hei]

Thanks for your reply, some things to think about.

1. Of course not
2. I do have an air filter but probably need replace it, I only use it when things get bad because it's kind of loud and has very bright white lights while on.
3. Never tried it
4. Never heard of that but it seems promising, Aerin sounds promising too but I'm not sure how to go about finding someone who uses it in my country

All I have really done was try nasal sprays and eyedrops (levocabastine; mometasone; cromoglycate), they help somewhat (after using one of them for a couple of days was probably the first time in my life I could breathe through my nose) but somehow it doesn't really work when I'm trying to sleep.

 

[boris]

This is a worry. I have trouble breathing through my nose in general, I try to do it during the day but at night the allergic rhinitis flares up and seals my nose shut. It always happens around bedtime even if I went all day without any allergy symptoms. Not sure what can be done, even when it doesn't seem inflamed it normally feels like not enough air is getting through; I couldn't breathe through it at all as a child (allergy went undiagnosed until I was 27) and think that the airways are probably very small; my face has a very underdeveloped appearance and also my jaws are very small and narrow.

When is the last time you eat before bed? Blood sugar falling will trigger allergy symptoms. If I don‘t eat something good right before bedtime I won‘t make it through the night.

Did you check for an underlying infection? I recently discovered I had chronic low grade sinusitis. Penicillin cleared up my nose.

 

[hei]

When is the last time you eat before bed? Blood sugar falling will trigger allergy symptoms. If I don‘t eat something good right before bedtime I won‘t make it through the night.

Did you check for an underlying infection? I recently discovered I had chronic low grade sinusitis. Penicillin cleared up my nose.

Sometimes I keep having things almost until bedtime and it still blocks up.
Not sure about infection. I had 10 days of flucloxacillin about a year and a half ago and I can't remember if it made a difference to my breathing. Maybe.
There's possibly a mould problem as it grows really fast on food left out, and if the house has been closed for a few weeks everything gets mouldy (even grows on the fingerprints from putting washed dishes back in the cupboard). I think that's normal for the area so maybe it's just an unhealthy region to live in.

 

[BearWithMe]

Sometimes I keep having things almost until bedtime and it still blocks up.
Not sure about infection. I had 10 days of flucloxacillin about a year and a half ago and I can't remember if it made a difference to my breathing. Maybe.
There's possibly a mould problem as it grows really fast on food left out, and if the house has been closed for a few weeks everything gets mouldy (even grows on the fingerprints from putting washed dishes back in the cupboard). I think that's normal for the area so maybe it's just an unhealthy region to live in.

You need to get out of that house as soon as possible. It is more than likely that all the symptoms you described are caused by mold.

Moving out is a hassle, but it needs to be done if you want to regain your health.

Environmental mold could absolutely wreak havoc on your health and cause things like ME/CFS, fibromyalgia, chronic/post Lyme, MCS/EI, POTS, MCAS, Alzheimer’s, autism and other similar conditions

Check out work of Erik Johnson and Lisa Petrison

15 Simple Ways To Start Learning About Mold-Related Illness - Paradigm Change

Welcome to Paradigm Change - see blog posts

paradigmchange.me

 

[Infarouge]

Inclined makes a lot of sense in light of the recent discovery of the glymphatic system in the brain and the fact that the brain detoxes while we sleep. Gravity could possibly assist the process. Even the use of pillows is a form of partial IBT. I've done it for years (about two inches higher at head of bed) and it does seem to promote restful sleep.

 

[hei]

***t, moving is nightmare mode for someone like me. Literally so many ways for it to go wrong and no guarantee that the new place will be better (especially as the "vacation mould" problem seems to be universal here).
There's honestly a pretty heavy buildup of dust and insect debris because I am very lazy at cleaning because stirring up the crud makes me sick, I always thought it was that.

 

[BearWithMe]

***t, moving is nightmare mode for someone like me. Literally so many ways for it to go wrong and no guarantee that the new place will be better (especially as the "vacation mould" problem seems to be universal here).
There's honestly a pretty heavy buildup of dust and insect debris because I am very lazy at cleaning because stirring up the crud makes me sick, I always thought it was that.

You know what is a real nightmare? Spending the rest of your life in moldy house, struggling with your health all the time and eventually developing Alzheimers or something.

The struggle with moving would be 100% worth it and you will be kicking yourself you haven't moved sooner, I promise.

When was the last time you was on a vacation?

 

[hei]

I go every year to visit my parents.

 

[BearWithMe]

I go every year to visit my parents.

How long do you usually stay here? Do they live in the same climate as you?

 

[hei]

A few weeks, climate is completely different - I live in a windless tropical hellhole and they live in a temperate location where summers are cooler than the tropical "winter".

 

[BearWithMe]

A few weeks, climate is completely different - I live in a windless tropical hellhole and they live in a temperate location where summers are cooler than the tropical "winter".

How do you feel after a few weeks in your parents place?

 

[hei]

I'm actually here now and I feel much better than normal, but I grew up here and always had blocked sinuses until I moved away. I think this is the first time I can remember not having constant sinus issues while being here, although it's summer here and seems atypically wet and cool.
At the very least I have done quite a lot of walking while here, I think mostly because the cooler weather makes it tolerable to be outside.