Cholinergic toxicity reversed with Forskolin

[Ismail]

Is there any known benefits resulting from breaking down choline to betaine? I'd like to know honestly

Magnesium stearate is used as a filler, Thiamax is free of filler, I'm talking about taking B Vitamins and Magnesium supplements which are highly recommended when taking TTFD.

The Thiamax does have a very small amount of magnesium in it, negligible some may say.

Elliot does specifically mention taking other supplements alongside B1 to avoid the “paradoxical reaction”, not sure if you guys have seen this:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DxvSUEVT_4

 

[Ismail]

I'm waiting for the week end to take B1 and try this hypothesis

Please do keep us updated as to how you get on etc.

Thanks

 

[mostlylurking]

I've actually tried all the available forms of B1 in the market, including TTFD and the sublingual form, what's fun is that TTFD has been shown to reduce mercury in the brain, but as you said, the burden on glutathione is not worth it for people with low glutathione status.

Info for how to reduce mercury in the brain:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320794400_Severe_elemental_mercury_poisoning_managed_with_selenium_and_N-acetylcysteine_administration

-paste-
"A healthy 15-year-old male spilled elemental mercury contaminating his garage and bedroom. The patient developed new onset hypertension, significant weight loss, pain (muscular, testicular, and abdominal), insomnia, delusions, hallucinations, tachycardia, palmar desquamation, diaphoresis, tremor, and ataxia leading to two consecutive hospitalizations. Blood and urine mercury were 23 and 330 µg/L, respectively. He received 21 days of chelation with 2,3-Dimercaptosuccinic acid during his second hospital stay. He continued to deteriorate. Three weeks post-chelation, he was transferred to our facility and his exam was unchanged. He could not stand or feed himself unassisted. He was started on selenium 500 mcg/day and N-acetylcysteine (NAC) 50 mg/kg/day. By day 3 of Se and NAC, he showed noticeable improvement, and by day 11, delusions, delirium, tachycardia, and abdominal pain resolved. Muscle strength, weight gain, speech, unassisted ambulation, and emotional liability improved. After five months with Se and NAC (1) he had regained 45 pounds, (2) restored to premorbid emotional, academic, and athletic performance, and (3) tachycardia, hypertension, rash, palmar skin changes, tremor, and insomnia had resolved. Features of this case include (1) improvement after selenium and NAC supplementation (2) contrasted with continued deterioration after DMSA chelation."
-end paste-

High dose thiamine hcl normalized my glutathione level within a few months, after being deficient in glutathione for many years. High dose thiamine hcl does cross the blood/brain barrier just fine, according to Dr. Costantini. High dose thiamine hcl (1 gram, 2Xday) never caused me any negative symptoms and has resolved my health problems. I also take 200mcg of selenium and am now taking 50mg of N-acetylcysteine. I plan to get my selenium level tested in a couple of months to see if it will be safe for me to increase the dose of it

I'm wondering if the real problem here is a low AChE activity that can't handle the sudden increase of Acetylcholine resulting from the increase of acetyl CoA after B1 intake, leading to a continuous stimulation of the postsynaptic cell. In this case increasing cAMP should reduce the severity of the symptoms (coffee, forskolin and artichoke)

This discussion is beyond my level of expertise.

I'm waiting for the week end to take B1 and try this hypothesis, because I feel like my body needs B1 but can't handle the sudden increase of Acetylcholine when taking it.

You might find the information on Dr. Costantini's website of interest. Therapy is here. Patient videos are here. Although Dr. Costantini said that patients aren't supposed to experience any negative effects from taking thiamine hcl, he said that sometimes a patient would experience negative effects so he would stop the treatment for a week and then resume it at 50% of the dose.

 

[brightside]

I'm wondering if the real problem here is a low AChE activity that can't handle the sudden increase of Acetylcholine resulting from the increase of acetyl CoA after B1 intake, leading to a continuous stimulation of the postsynaptic cell. In this case increasing cAMP should reduce the severity of the symptoms (coffee, forskolin and artichoke)

Hmm, maybe that’s true. Although It must be B1 increasing AChE by rescuing energy or some mechanism like that. Otherwise, simply eating AlphaGPC would have the same effect.

What’s interesting, is that in the past, even a single egg would give me cholinergic depression, night terrors, and all the symptoms associated with high ACh. However, once I discovered TTFD, all of that went away and I can take a gram of AlphaGPC without noticing any negatives.

The TTFD did make me hypercholingeric in the beginning for about a week, though. So that could have been the adjustment period where my AChE expression was increased and they were being built.

 

[Ahmed ELH]

The Thiamax does have a very small amount of magnesium in it, negligible some may say.

Elliot does specifically mention taking other supplements alongside B1 to avoid the “paradoxical reaction”, not sure if you guys have seen this:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DxvSUEVT_4

The old version didn't have any, but yes, 8mg of magnesium taurate is nothing.

Thanks for sharing, I actually made an interview with Eliott a few months ago when B1 was working properly. I then messed up with a 3 day fast that caused all those cholinergic symptoms (I suspect a severe downregulation of AChE).

Please do keep us updated as to how you get on etc.

Thanks

I'll do, B1 is the only supplement who completly fixes my shortness of breath, makes me feel normal, grounded and stressless, till this day, during the two first hours of taking it. I then get submerged by all the excess acetylcholine symptoms.

Info for how to reduce mercury in the brain:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320794400_Severe_elemental_mercury_poisoning_managed_with_selenium_and_N-acetylcysteine_administration

-paste-
"A healthy 15-year-old male spilled elemental mercury contaminating his garage and bedroom. The patient developed new onset hypertension, significant weight loss, pain (muscular, testicular, and abdominal), insomnia, delusions, hallucinations, tachycardia, palmar desquamation, diaphoresis, tremor, and ataxia leading to two consecutive hospitalizations. Blood and urine mercury were 23 and 330 µg/L, respectively. He received 21 days of chelation with 2,3-Dimercaptosuccinic acid during his second hospital stay. He continued to deteriorate. Three weeks post-chelation, he was transferred to our facility and his exam was unchanged. He could not stand or feed himself unassisted. He was started on selenium 500 mcg/day and N-acetylcysteine (NAC) 50 mg/kg/day. By day 3 of Se and NAC, he showed noticeable improvement, and by day 11, delusions, delirium, tachycardia, and abdominal pain resolved. Muscle strength, weight gain, speech, unassisted ambulation, and emotional liability improved. After five months with Se and NAC (1) he had regained 45 pounds, (2) restored to premorbid emotional, academic, and athletic performance, and (3) tachycardia, hypertension, rash, palmar skin changes, tremor, and insomnia had resolved. Features of this case include (1) improvement after selenium and NAC supplementation (2) contrasted with continued deterioration after DMSA chelation."
-end paste-

High dose thiamine hcl normalized my glutathione level within a few months, after being deficient in glutathione for many years. High dose thiamine hcl does cross the blood/brain barrier just fine, according to Dr. Costantini. High dose thiamine hcl (1 gram, 2Xday) never caused me any negative symptoms and has resolved my health problems. I also take 200mcg of selenium and am now taking 50mg of N-acetylcysteine. I plan to get my selenium level tested in a couple of months to see if it will be safe for me to increase the dose of it

This discussion is beyond my level of expertise.

You might find the information on Dr. Costantini's website of interest. Therapy is here. Patient videos are here. Although Dr. Costantini said that patients aren't supposed to experience any negative effects from taking thiamine hcl, he said that sometimes a patient would experience negative effects so he would stop the treatment for a week and then resume it at 50% of the dose.

Thanks for sharing, may I ask you one question, do you feel like 50mg of NAC is sufficient ? I see everyone taking doses that are at least 600mg.

Hmm, maybe that’s true. Although It must be B1 increasing AChE by rescuing energy or some mechanism like that. Otherwise, simply eating AlphaGPC would have the same effect.

What’s interesting, is that in the past, even a single egg would give me cholinergic depression, night terrors, and all the symptoms associated with high ACh. However, once I discovered TTFD, all of that went away and I can take a gram of AlphaGPC without noticing any negatives.

The TTFD did make me hypercholingeric in the beginning for about a week, though. So that could have been the adjustment period where my AChE expression was increased and they were being built.

Hey Brightside, thanks for sharing.

I can totally relate; AlphaGPC is actually having the same effect. I can't eat chicken breasts, eggs, salmon, beef, or liver without high ACh side effects.

It's better now after starting Forskolin and coffee; that's why I'm wondering if taking them with B1 would fix it while the body regulates itself.

 

[brightside]

The old version didn't have any, but yes, 8mg of magnesium taurate is nothing.

Thanks for sharing, I actually made an interview with Eliott a few months ago when B1 was working properly. I then messed up with a 3 day fast that caused all those cholinergic symptoms (I suspect a severe downregulation of AChE).


I'll do, B1 is the only supplement who completly fixes my shortness of breath, makes me feel normal, grounded and stressless, till this day, during the two first hours of taking it. I then get submerged by all the excess acetylcholine symptoms.


Thanks for sharing, may I ask you one question, do you feel like 50mg of NAC is sufficient ? I see everyone taking doses that are at least 600mg.

Hey Brightside, thanks for sharing.

I can totally relate; AlphaGPC is actually having the same effect. I can't eat chicken breasts, eggs, salmon, beef, or liver without high ACh side effects.

It's better now after starting Forskolin and coffee; that's why I'm wondering if taking them with B1 would fix it while the body regulates itself.

Gotcha, yeah they felt the same for me too. I just meant that the upregulation of AChE can’t be due to increased acetylcholine, since the issue with AlphaGPC would self-resolve. The TTFD fixing things for me is via a different mechanism, clearly. (Sorry if you already understood, I wanted to clarify what I said earlier)

Yeah, perhaps. Are you planning to use megadose equivalent doses of TTFD? For me that’s roughly 200mg. Also, why not inhibit ACh directly as well? Also also, have you tried high dose vit A? It universally lowers ACh synthesis past a certain dose.

 

[ddjd]

I've been suffering for the last few months of excess acetylcholine symptoms after using B1 for a long time, my symptoms were:

- Excessive Salivation
- Constant Head Pressure during the day, worsening after eating.
- Constantly Tense Gut
- Extreme Fatigue and Headaches after eating (no matter what I eat)
- Insomnia
- Muscle Tensions
- Abnormally High Heart Rate (180 bpm when fast walking)
- Shortness of Breath
- Anxiety
- Excessive Inflammatory responses, after training or sex. (felt like my brain was on fire, with extreme anxious thoughts, I needed 2 to 3 days to fully recover)
- Social avoidance

At first, I thought it was MCAS or histamine intolerance, but all known treatments and supplements for those two didn't work at all.

The only thing that worked for a short period of time was anti cholinergics : DPH and Chlorphéniramine, as well as 5-HT2a and D2 agonists.

I decided last Thursday evening to try Forskolin (250mg Coleus forskohlii extract standardized at 10% forskolin) first thing in the morning to enhance AChE and the results were astonishing.

- The constant head pressure and anxiety vanished, it was replaced by a feeling of well being
- No more excessive inflammatory responses after training or sex
- Stabilized Heartbeats
- Feeling completely refreshed and rejuvenated upon waking up in the morning
- I can easily take deep breaths now
- My MMC is working properly again
- Improved verbal fluency with a desire to interact with others
- Feeling relaxed even in stressful situations
- Extremely motivated and active

I didn't expect it to work so well honestly, I spent too much time trying to increase GABA, dopamine and reduce serotonin without success, thinking they were the problem in my case.

i think i told you this in another thread. you have depleted one of the other b vitamins. its nothing to do with choline. my best geuss woudl be b3. i would start taking small doses of niacinamide regularly. do the same with b6p5p and maybe even methyl b12. youre barking up the wrong tree with this choline theory

 

[brightside]

i think i told you this in another thread. you have depleted one of the other b vitamins. its nothing to do with choline. my best geuss woudl be b3. i would start taking small doses of niacinamide regularly. do the same with b6p5p and maybe even methyl b12. youre barking up the wrong tree with this choline theory

No doubt B1 depletes other B’s and nutrients, I’ve got plenty of experience with that myself.

But that’s written like someone who’s never had cholinergic symptoms from B1.

 

[Ahmed ELH]

No doubt B1 depletes other B’s and nutrients, I’ve got plenty of experience with that myself.

But that’s written like someone who’s never had cholinergic symptoms from B1.

Completly, I don't take his comments seriously, and I don't want to argue anyway because his comment shows clearly that he didn't read the other thread.

 

[Ahmed ELH]

Gotcha, yeah they felt the same for me too. I just meant that the upregulation of AChE can’t be due to increased acetylcholine, since the issue with AlphaGPC would self-resolve. The TTFD fixing things for me is via a different mechanism, clearly. (Sorry if you already understood, I wanted to clarify what I said earlier)

Yes I got you on this one.

Yeah, perhaps. Are you planning to use megadose equivalent doses of TTFD? For me that’s roughly 200mg. Also, why not inhibit ACh directly as well? Also also, have you tried high dose vit A? It universally lowers ACh synthesis past a certain dose.

Absolutely, I tried all forms and I respond better to Sulbutiamine and Benfotiamine.

I've never tried high dose vit A, too scared of toxicity. At what dose do you consider it sufficient to lower ACh synthesis?

 

[mostlylurking]

Thanks for sharing, may I ask you one question, do you feel like 50mg of NAC is sufficient ? I see everyone taking doses that are at least 600mg.

I've just recently started trying NAC and I am taking just the 50mg/day. I really haven't been taking it long enough to really answer your question based on my own experience. I'm simply following the protocol that was used in the article that I posted earlier. The point of the combination of selenium plus the 50mg of NAC was so the body could make selenocysteine with the two. I think the bottleneck is the amount of selenium the body can tolerate without it becoming problematic. I've been taking 200mcg of selenium for several months and after that addition my blood tests the doctor runs on me every 6 months had noticeably improved. If I increase anything it will be the selenium (from 200mcg up to 400mcg) but I want to get my selenium tested before I do that which is scheduled for February 2024. Then I'll test the selenium level about every 6-8 weeks to make sure it doesn't get too high.

 

[Tidal]

I've had symptoms of what I believe is excess cholinergic activity for a while like constant excess saliva, muscle twitching and weakness plus some weird type of GERD. Also dealing with a tonne of cognitive problems and have took a lot of thiamine.

I do have a history of tricyclic use which can impact this.
But I think these problems began after taking Myo inositol for a few weeks which was disastrous. The thiamine probably didn't help things, however. It certainly didn't benefit me and I took every form as well.

Recently I took cyproheptadine and it reduced the saliva flow slightly but not as much as I thought it would.

I've taken forskolin before and it made my facial muscle tightness worse. I don't think it reduced anything though. I may try artichoke

 

[brightside]

Yes I got you on this one.


Absolutely, I tried all forms and I respond better to Sulbutiamine and Benfotiamine.

I've never tried high dose vit A, too scared of toxicity. At what dose do you consider it sufficient to lower ACh synthesis?

Ah, I see.

I’m not sure. Redsun talked a bit about this, here’s a random post I found.

Question about how cypro induces weight gain

I'm seeing how Cypro induced weight gain on the majority of subjects in every study I've come across. The issue is I can't see whether this weight gain is induced by the increase in appetite or by some other mechanism. I really like Cypro and would like to take 0.5-1mg a day for a month with two...

raypeatforum.com

You might wanna browse his profile, he generally had good ideas, good research, and a pretty balanced take.

Personally, I easily used 50k IU daily for a few weeks to replete my stores every few months. That could have helped with the whole B1 transition period. I don’t remember too well, unfortunately.

I think at that dose you will probably get some reduction in ACh, but it’s all variable. For one, my fat digestion wasn’t great, so I was probably getting a significantly reduced dose. I also would run pretty deficient, and the skin on my hands would crack, so my starting point was much lower.

Also, I vaguely remember reading reddit nootropics posts about acetylcholine and norepinephrine balances. Perhaps my usage of copper at the same time also helped. I did find it tremendously revitalizing along with the Vit A.

 

[brightside]

Completly, I don't take his comments seriously, and I don't want to argue anyway because his comment shows clearly that he didn't read the other thread.

Lol, I see.

I engaged with him about methylation earlier, to which he semi-condescendingly responded. Then I asked a more specific question and he never responded.. What’s up with these know-it-all’s who don’t know anything lol

 

[Tidal]

Another thing I forgot to say is I tried tyrosine which is meant to increase acetylcholinesterase but this didn't reduce the symptoms of cholinergic toxicity either.

The supplement I tried before was 250mg standardised to 20% forskolin.

Not sure if I could have sensitised receptors. Almost impossible to find things that reduce acetylcholine

 

[Healthseeker]

Completly, I don't take his comments seriously, and I don't want to argue anyway because his comment shows clearly that he didn't read the other thread.

I took it seriously, how do you know for sure its not a lack of other b vitamins. By your own logic, B1 is changing levels of neurotransmitters in your brain. Why would other B vitamins not also have effects on this system?

 

[Ahmed ELH]

I've had symptoms of what I believe is excess cholinergic activity for a while like constant excess saliva, muscle twitching and weakness plus some weird type of GERD. Also dealing with a tonne of cognitive problems and have took a lot of thiamine.

I do have a history of tricyclic use which can impact this.
But I think these problems began after taking Myo inositol for a few weeks which was disastrous. The thiamine probably didn't help things, however. It certainly didn't benefit me and I took every form as well.

Recently I took cyproheptadine and it reduced the saliva flow slightly but not as much as I thought it would.

I've taken forskolin before and it made my facial muscle tightness worse. I don't think it reduced anything though. I may try artichoke

Another thing I forgot to say is I tried tyrosine which is meant to increase acetylcholinesterase but this didn't reduce the symptoms of cholinergic toxicity either.

The supplement I tried before was 250mg standardised to 20% forskolin.

Not sure if I could have sensitised receptors. Almost impossible to find things that reduce acetylcholine

I don't feel that cyproheptadine is very anti-cholinergic, have you tried Benadryl (DPH) or Scopolamine patchs. Do your symptoms get worse when you are exposed to tobacco or using nicotine patchs?

 

[brightside]

I don't feel that cyproheptadine is very anti-cholinergic, have you tried Benadryl (DPH) or Scopolamine patchs. Do your symptoms get worse when you are exposed to tobacco or using nicotine patchs?

Kind of random, but do you get a reduced mental voice when hypercholinergic? I noticed that benadryl would powerfully revive it, just before I’d fall asleep from it lol.

 

[Ahmed ELH]

Ah, I see.

I’m not sure. Redsun talked a bit about this, here’s a random post I found.

Question about how cypro induces weight gain

I'm seeing how Cypro induced weight gain on the majority of subjects in every study I've come across. The issue is I can't see whether this weight gain is induced by the increase in appetite or by some other mechanism. I really like Cypro and would like to take 0.5-1mg a day for a month with two...

raypeatforum.com

You might wanna browse his profile, he generally had good ideas, good research, and a pretty balanced take.

Personally, I easily used 50k IU daily for a few weeks to replete my stores every few months. That could have helped with the whole B1 transition period. I don’t remember too well, unfortunately.

I think at that dose you will probably get some reduction in ACh, but it’s all variable. For one, my fat digestion wasn’t great, so I was probably getting a significantly reduced dose. I also would run pretty deficient, and the skin on my hands would crack, so my starting point was much lower.

Also, I vaguely remember reading reddit nootropics posts about acetylcholine and norepinephrine balances. Perhaps my usage of copper at the same time also helped. I did find it tremendously revitalizing along with the Vit A.

Thanks or sharing, I've spent all day yesterday reading Redsun threads and posts, and for sure acetylcholine is very tricky, I feel good taking Vitamin A, I never took more than 25.000IU at a time, but when I take it I feel some improvments relating to stress and digestion. I always feel a dehydrated feeling in my gut, especially after eating.

Lol, I see.

I engaged with him about methylation earlier, to which he semi-condescendingly responded. Then I asked a more specific question and he never responded.. What’s up with these know-it-all’s who don’t know anything lol

I think that's the main reason Redsun left this forum.

Kind of random, but do you get a reduced mental voice when hypercholinergic? I noticed that benadryl would powerfully revive it, just before I’d fall asleep from it lol.

I get the opposite, the mental voice get through the roof when using hypercholinergic, benadryl will makes me slide into random images, voices before going to bed, it's a potent deliriogenic.

 

[Ahmed ELH]

I took it seriously, how do you know for sure its not a lack of other b vitamins. By your own logic, B1 is changing levels of neurotransmitters in your brain. Why would other B vitamins not also have effects on this system?

Thanks you for your implication, what he says may or may not be true.

I specified in the other thread he is mentioning, that I take enough of the other B Vitamins.

I get severe neuropathy and nightmares from B6 even if it works great. My B12 levels are very high. I already take B3; I used to take up to 3g per day with pretty good results, now 500mg to 1g feels like the sweet spot.

B1 improves my shortness of breath and low muscle tone, the side effects that follow 2 hours later are not pleasant and last up to 48 hours, the worse being the negative inner talk in my head, I get the exact same side effects from nicotine.

The only things that works are either anti-cholinergics, high amount of caffeine, microdoses of LSD. I agree that very high dose of P5P (100mg+) or even low dose of tryptophan (250mg) and 5-HTP (25mg) give me some relief but not for too long as the other three I mentioned.