Eating LOW FAT Leads To Serious Gall Bladder Problems!

[john3333]

First of all, there ARE threads on that forum discussing health problems, many of which are likely caused by such an extreme diet. With a quick Google search, I found this one- How to get rid of gallstones ?

Although on top of that, the mods on that forum will often delete posts that bring up health issues encountered on the diet. Anthony Colpo linked to several in his post "The Ugly Truth about Harley 'Durianrider' Johnstone," they were deleted shortly after his post went up, but the links are still on his site.

It seems like his low fat diet is actually preventing gallstones. Only when he stops following the diet by eating fat does he get ill.

 

[amethyst]

Edit: @amethyst posted above while I was typing this.

What is commonly overlooked is that "gallbladder dysfunction" and other digestive problems are most usually problems of the liver and of energy production in the body. Acetylcholine plays a big role, as does an underproduction of bile acids.

Most people who have "gallbladder problems" are usually people with energy problems and likely liver problems. Just look at the typical demographics (obese/overweight, older, etc.) for gall bladder problems.. Of course there are atypical cases, but without labs and intense clinical scrutiny, we can't be sure the atypical cases aren't energy compromised or have some degree of subclinical liver dystfunction. Fatty liver doesn't show up on labs until it's already very severe, but it can probably cause problems long before labs can detect it.

Eating low fat probably causes a difference in liver function that overwhelms an the ability of already compromised digestive system and elimination system ability to cope. Eating low fat also leads to calorie restriction and thus decreased energy production at a time when the liver is already struggling to cope with a difference in function (possibly increased detox, when it really needs the energy). Low fat also causes problems with acetylcholine production, which is essential to proper production of bile acids, and digestive movement and functioning.

As we all know, stress can also have deleterious effect on energy production.

I can't be more specific than that...wish I could, but I don't have all the answers. Just some personal experience and some research (which I often forget, cognition isn't that great right now) and drawing conclusions from what I see, experience, and read.

I've battled gastroparesis and gall bladder problems in the recent past, which I originally thought were tied to fat intake and losing weight. But now I realize that gallstone formation and other problems are all tied to energy and liver function, notably bile production (or lack thereof). For example, as long as I take enough exogenous bile acids to take up the slack of my poor beat-up liver that doesn't have energy to produce enough, I can eat as much fat as I want without getting an attack. Like, bacon, bacon gravy, lard biscuits, etc. (Gotta love the holidays if they don't kill you first ).

Is it smart to do that, without correcting the fundamental problem? NO.

But the fact that it works like that is an indication that the problem lies in compromised body processes and not necessarily what's coming in from the outside (e.g., too little or too much fat). I know other people who have experienced "gall bladder problems" who are in the same boat...as long as they supplement enough exogenous digestive aids and eat enough to keep their energy levels stable, they don't have problems.

Point being, blaming gall bladder problems on low fat or high fat is too reductionist and will never lead to a proper solution. It's a really, really complex problem.

That said, I still think Very Low Fat (VLF) is an unparallelled strategy for cleaning up the liver, especially if care is taken to keep energy intake high (i.e., not let calories fall too low for too long). VLF doesn't seem to cause problems for most people UNLESS they go back to eating fat abruptly, which is what usually happens. That is, they'll be VLF for several weeks or months and then go out and eat half a large, loaded pizza one Saturday night. Or similar. So of course the digestive and elimination systems (which include the gall bladder), are going to be left screaming after that, especially if the individual is teetering on the edge of energy problems, anyway. Which, again, most people who turn to VLF are.

You've made some really good points. Yes it is a complicated issue and I agree that I definitely think the liver is involved in the complications. I made the thread in the first place because I kept reading over and over that too little fat was leading to gallbladder issues. But it is also too much fat that leads to gallbladder issues. And acute stress leads to gallbladder issues. I don't think they made a mistake naming the "gall" bladder it's name. Gall's definition is "bitterness of feeling, rancor"- rancor means bitterness.

Perhaps that much talked about forum topic of "learned helplessness" ties in here. Learning to release bitterness, dealing with stress is something that can help someone's digestive issues. Who knows? Maybe these emotional conditions also contribute to our clogged livers as well.

The mind-body connection is something they are just learning, has a greater affect on our health than we have realized. Our emotional health is as important as our physical health.

 

[amethyst]

Interview With an Ex-Vegan: Erim Bilgin
At any rate, following "gurus" is always going to f*ck you up. Everyone is going to project their own problems/solutions onto others when giving advice. Wait...am I doing that right now? LMAO!

Totally agree with that!

 

[whodathunkit]

I made the thread in the first place because I kept reading over and over that too little fat was leading to gallbladder issues. But it is also too much fat that leads to gallbladder issues.

I guess my larger point is that energy problems lead to the digestive problems at either end of the fat intake spectrum. Adequate energy production = okay with fat intake of any amount. Although I will say that very prolonged VLF is probably not any more of a good idea than prolonged high fat...both can lead to energy problems if overdone. High fat clogs up detox pathways over time so that everything grinds to a halt, and VLF could lead to inadequate hormone and neurotransmitter production. VLF might be doable as a long term strategy if compensating with a cheat day of saturated fat once per week and some exogenous choline, stuff like that.

My own poor liver took a frakking beating my whole life and kept on ticking until my energy tanked. But even then it wasn't until I staggered and chronically limited my energy intake via intermittent fasting (overdid it, too much too long) on top of an existing energy deficit (i.e., a constellation of acute CFS symptoms) that my "gall bladder" wigged out. According to conventional wisdom I shouldn't ever have been able to eat fat liberally again, after what I went through, but I can, with the right supplemental measures. Debatable if that's a good thing or a bad thing, since I love fat and could use an excuse not to eat it, but it's a fact nonetheless.

Learning to release bitterness, dealing with stress is something that can help someone's digestive issues. Who knows? Maybe these emotional conditions also contribute to our clogged livers as well.

Oh, I definitely think so. I believe anger is supposed to reside in the liver, according to TCM theory. Plus, serotonin is synthesized in the gut and digestive system, and we know where Ray stands on serotonin and mindsets like learned helplessness.

Acetylcholine is a very, very big player in all this, but I haven't been able nail down how it ties everything together.

 

[amethyst]

I guess my larger point is that energy problems lead to the digestive problems at either end of the fat intake spectrum. Adequate energy production = okay with fat intake of any amount. Although I will say that very prolonged VLF is probably not any more of a good idea than prolonged high fat...both can lead to energy problems if overdone. High fat clogs up detox pathways over time so that everything grinds to a halt, and VLF could lead to inadequate hormone and neurotransmitter production. VLF might be doable as a long term strategy if compensating with a cheat day of saturated fat once per week and some exogenous choline, stuff like that.

My own poor liver took a frakking beating my whole life and kept on ticking until my energy tanked. But even then it wasn't until I staggered and chronically limited my energy intake via intermittent fasting (overdid it, too much too long) on top of an existing energy deficit (i.e., a constellation of acute CFS symptoms) that my "gall bladder" wigged out. According to conventional wisdom I shouldn't ever have been able to eat fat liberally again, after what I went through, but I can, with the right supplemental measures. Debatable if that's a good thing or a bad thing, since I love fat and could use an excuse not to eat it, but it's a fact nonetheless.


Oh, I definitely think so. I believe anger is supposed to reside in the liver, according to TCM theory. Plus, serotonin is synthesized in the gut and digestive system, and we know where Ray stands on serotonin and mindsets like learned helplessness.

Acetylcholine is a very, very big player in all this, but I haven't been able nail down how it ties everything together.

I've started taking sunflower lecithin for my liver.Plus, of course, good pastured eggs have lecithin. I've read several times how good lecithin is for the liver. Maybe you could try that if you haven't already, since you said your liver has taken a beating. Anything we can do to help our livers is a good thing. Yes, I've heard that Chinese medicine says that anger resides in the liver. Makes sense being that it is connected to the gallbladder.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

First of all, there ARE threads on that forum discussing health problems, many of which are likely caused by such an extreme diet. With a quick Google search, I found this one- How to get rid of gallstones ?

Although on top of that, the mods on that forum will often delete posts that bring up health issues encountered on the diet. Anthony Colpo linked to several in his post "The Ugly Truth about Harley 'Durianrider' Johnstone," they were deleted shortly after his post went up, but the links are still on his site.

Interview With an Ex-Vegan: Erim Bilgin
At any rate, following "gurus" is always going to f*ck you up. Everyone is going to project their own problems/solutions onto others when giving advice. Wait...am I doing that right now? LMAO!

Colpo is a very angry man. Just read the things he writes. He still has the same shirtless photo of himself on his site that is over 12 years old. DR isn't a good guy either. He's used steroids and he bikes too much but I agree with him about fruit and starch being the best calorie source. As far as people claiming that they failed on low fat, the ones you're talking about here are from the 30bad and Doug Graham camps, both of which have lots of emotions and personal politics and baggage attached to them while at the same time there is the vegan aspect. I'll always remind people that when talking about nutrition and health, when the subject of veganism comes up, you must separate the "ethical" discussion from the nutrition/health discussion. They are two different things. My rice, potato, and fruit based diet, with lean animal protein, has nothing to do with ethics and it has nothing to do with any guru who promotes a similar diet. Just because some people who eat a similar diet are quacks, doesn't mean I'm a quack. Just because most people in jail eat standard American, doesn't make all standard American eaters criminals.

The "my Health Guru/person Who Eats Like Me" Got Cancer Paradox


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[Wagner83]

What does white rice brings outside of calories? What do you make of people who feel terrible on starch? Most importantly why do you think fat and starch shouldn't be mixed (you suggested in previous conversations starch can make one feel terrible in the presence of fats)?

On the other side, one thing I am yet to understand about Peat's work is his constant bashing of PUFAs and yet to get calories without starch one needs to eat a good amount of fat and therefore PUFAs (ice cream and cheese among other things). I've heard haidut say the ratio of saturated to unsaturated fats is actually what matters.

 

[amethyst]

I've heard haidut say the ratio of saturated to unsaturated fats is actually what matters.

Bingo, I think that's it. The ratios. In reference to starch, I know if I eat *just* starch by itself, I feel unsatisfied. If I eat too much starch with protein, I get bloated. So I eat *some* starch with a meal, but not too much and I feel good.

 

[whodathunkit]

I've started taking sunflower lecithin for my liver.Plus, of course, good pastured eggs have lecithin. I've read several times how good lecithin is for the liver. Maybe you could try that if you haven't already, since you said your liver has taken a beating.

I have tried that and much more. Best thing I ever found to correct liver dysfunction is very low fat diet. IME taking in pure fat like sunflower lecithin or oil in any form (even coconut) when there's liver dysfunction present is oxymoronic. Fat that already comes with healthy food like eggs is sufficient. Or eating a bit of actual coconut instead of oil. Etc.

I'm not a fan of lecithin anymore at all...it's way overhyped for helping the liver. Peat is right about PUFA. My liver and I do much, much better when PUFA depleted. YMMV.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

What does white rice brings outside of calories?

It does have small amounts of micronutrients but it's main purpose is calories. Glucose calories that is. That is the point. When you're hungry, you need energy to burn, and there is no better energy than carbohydrate. Humans are carbohydrate burning machines. Your brain needs a tremendous amount of glucose and that's exactly what starch provides. When you're hungry, a.k.a., you have low blood levels of glucose, low blood sugar, you need to eat glucose, sugar, to raise it back up. Protein and fat don't provide the same energy that carbohydrate does. Protein's main purpose is to rebuild tissue and enzymes, not to be burned for energy. Protein can be converted into glucose if needed, but that takes more energy to do and produces byproducts that may have negative effects. Fat is also not burned for energy in the same way carbohydrate is and fat also produces byproducts that may have negative effects. Fat can be burned as free fatty acids by the muscle tissue but fat can't be burned by the red blood cells. The red blood cells always need glucose. Fat can also not be burned by the brain. The brain can burn ketones, but not fat. There's a difference. There is also an important part of the kidneys that always need sugar, not fat or protein:

"In glucose homeostasis, the kidney may be considered as two different organs: the renal medulla and the renal cortex. This differentiation refers to the distribution of various enzymes in these parts of the kidney. Medulla holds enzymes for glucose phosphorylation, glycolysis and glycogen synthesis, but lacks glucose-6-phosphatase and gluconeogenic enzymes. Consequently, renal medulla satisfy its energy needs through glycolytic division of glucose, which produce lactate and synthesizes a small amount of glycogen for intracellular consumption."

Medscape: Medscape Access

So your brain, red blood cells, and renal medulla need a constant supply of glucose everyday. That's why white rice works.

See this video where Peat talks about making our own fats and that since we can make our own fats, he thinks "it's best to get as much sugar and starch in the diet," but "preferably sugars from fruit and milk." Which fits in line with what I'm saying here in the context of keeping fat low and getting most of your calories from carbohydrate, as well as his quotes on not over consuming dairy fat. He was asked there about how much fat one should eat and he said that it's best to get your energy from carbohydrate.

What do you make of people who feel terrible on starch?

I think it means you don't have strong digestion. See this audio clip here. Notice how he said that you need a few hundred grams of carbohydrate from either sugar or starch everyday. That is the main point. You need carbohydrate every day. You need that glucose to burn so you don't start burning your own muscle to get glucose. Either eat carbohydrate, or force your body to make it itself from your muscle tissue, which is a problem.

Most importantly why do you think fat and starch shouldn't be mixed (you suggested in previous conversations starch can make one feel terrible in the presence of fats)?

They can be mixed but what I'm saying is that if you're having problems, you should try a lower fat diet to see if you improve.

Starch comes in three forms:

1. Below ground storage organs: potato, yam, sweet potato, (sweet potatoes are not the same as yams) parsnip, celeriac, burdock, tapioca, sunchoke, jicama, rutabaga, water chestnut, taro, cassava and many others that are available around the world. Some tubers have more simple sugar than starch such as beets and turnips but the starchy ones are the ones that provide sufficient calories.

2. Above ground storage organs, winter squashes: - butternut, acorn, Hubbard, banana, pumpkin, buttercup, turban. Summer squash are usually low in calories which makes sense, summer = fruit, winter = steamed starch to keep warm and be the carbohydrate source when fruit is not there, in the non-tropics.

3. Grains - rice, amaranth, barley, buckwheat, farro, emmer, kamut, millet, muesli, quinoa, rye, sorghum, spelt, teff, triticale and many others, in their non-flour form. White rice is milled, but it's not milled into a flour.

Legumes like beans, lentils, peas, and some others have starch but they also have a high amount of protein so to call them a carbohydrate is a misnomer.

Flour products are not simply "starch." They almost always have fat with them.

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[DaveFoster]

Yes I was. 235 lbs. at my heaviest. Now around 165 lbs. I was in the obese club. I know what it's like. My argument is eating to satiation with low fat will lead to different results than eating to satiation with moderate to high fat. The moderate to high fat will cause problems for most people, most of the time. When I go too high in fat I start to get blood sugar dysregulation, and sleep and mood problems. Outside of body fat, and those things I just mentioned, I'm also concerned with dietary fat and cancer and heart disease. I don't "endorse" a very low fat diet. I endorse the idea that the amount of dietary fat for you is the amount that keeps you happy with your body fat, sleep, blood sugar, and mood, and longevity if you care about that. I just think dietary fat is just different than protein and carbohydrate. It's just a different animal. Dietary protein and dietary carbohydrate don't do the same things that dietary fat does. There is a movement in the alt-nutrition world that promotes the idea that "starch" is fattening and sickening and that "fat" is the opposite. This is what I argue against. Because they ignore the nuance.

What do you think about fully hydrogenated coconut oil or Stryker's C:8/C:10 fatty acids?

 

[Matt1951]

There is an entire community of fruitarians and juicearians in 30bananasaday.com and there are hardly any threads talking about health problems caused by their low PUFA diet. In fact, it is common to see people talk about how their health has recovered after going on a fruitarian low PUFA diet.
Ashton Kutcher is only one person who has experienced a negative side effect of the fruitarian while millions of other people have not. For all we know he may have been genetically presdisposed to whatever he may have gone through. We can not blame a fruit diet for that. Time and time again, research has shown that high fruit diets lead to extraordinary longevity, lower cancer rates, and excellent thyroid health.

Thirty bananas a day are total frauds. There are many former fruitarians who developed severe health issues. There are very few long term healthy fruitarians, they are the exception, not the rule.
Anthony Colpo is absolutely correct in his criticism of them.

 

[Matt1951]

First of all, there ARE threads on that forum discussing health problems, many of which are likely caused by such an extreme diet. With a quick Google search, I found this one- How to get rid of gallstones ?

Although on top of that, the mods on that forum will often delete posts that bring up health issues encountered on the diet. Anthony Colpo linked to several in his post "The Ugly Truth about Harley 'Durianrider' Johnstone," they were deleted shortly after his post went up, but the links are still on his site.

Anthony Colpo is correct. Ray Peat consumes cheese, 1% milk, and sometimes coconut oil. He is getting some good fat in his diet. To add, he also eats eggs and liver.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Anyone who is too hard on "fruitarians" on the Ray Peat Forum is kind of contradicting themselves as Peat thinks tropical fruits are the best calorie source over everything else.

What do you think about fully hydrogenated coconut oil or Stryker's C:8/C:10 fatty acids?

I think hydrogenated CO is unnecessary for me because I think the body has an ability to handle the naturally occurring pufa long term. I know too many people in their 60's who are handling their stored pufa fine. I think not eating frying oils and too many nuts and chicken/pork fat are more important than using hydrogenated CO.

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[tankasnowgod]

Colpo is a very angry man. Just read the things he writes. He still has the same shirtless photo of himself on his site that is over 12 years old. DR isn't a good guy either. He's used steroids and he bikes too much but I agree with him about fruit and starch being the best calorie source. As far as people claiming that they failed on low fat, the ones you're talking about here are from the 30bad and Doug Graham camps, both of which have lots of emotions and personal politics and baggage attached to them while at the same time there is the vegan aspect. I'll always remind people that when talking about nutrition and health, when the subject of veganism comes up, you must separate the "ethical" discussion from the nutrition/health discussion. They are two different things. My rice, potato, and fruit based diet, with lean animal protein, has nothing to do with ethics and it has nothing to do with any guru who promotes a similar diet. Just because some people who eat a similar diet are quacks, doesn't mean I'm a quack. Just because most people in jail eat standard American, doesn't make all standard American eaters criminals.

My remarks were specifically about fruitarian diets, and in reference to 30BAD. I wasn't criticizing you or your diet (which isn't vegan or fruitarian, since you include animal protein). The reason I cited the Colpo article I did is because it contains evidence of 50 or so deleted threads 30BAD forum members talking about health issues while supposedly following that style of frutarian diet. Whether Colpo is an angry man or chooses to use a shirtless photo of himself on his site are irrelevant to the point I was making.

As for the benefits of going extremely low fat, I'm wary, but open minded. Some, like yourself, claim anecdotal success, and there is some limited support from scientific studies (like Kepner's rice diet work, and the William Brown experiment). Although when I experimented going super low fat myself, I noticed some annoying digestive issues that cleared up when I went back to fat at 20-30% of calories or so.

 

[schultz]

Anthony Colpo is correct. Ray Peat consumes cheese, 1% milk, and sometimes coconut oil. He is getting some good fat in his diet. To add, he also eats eggs and liver.

True that. Ray is at least getting 30g of fat a day and probably at least 2g of PUFA. He said in the latest KMUD that he drinks around 2-4 quarts of 1% milk a day and has 1 large egg every day. Personally I like between 30-60g of fat a day. If I eat too much I feel "gross" and if I eat too little I feel "empty" or something (hard to explain I suppose).

As far as starch goes.... it tastes yummy. Personally, I eat more starch in the winter because it's warm and comforting and there is not much in terms of fruit available. In the summer I eat a lot of fruit and may only have starch a couple times a week.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Anthony Colpo is correct.

Correct about what?

The reason I cited the Colpo article I did is because it contains evidence of 50 or so deleted threads 30BAD forum members talking about health issues while supposedly following that style of frutarian diet. Whether Colpo is an angry man or chooses to use a shirtless photo of himself on his site are irrelevant to the point I was making.

I think it is relevant because for all we know it could have been Colpo himself who posted those heath problem threads on that forum. Look at all the time he's put into DR over nothing. Over DR just trolling him a bit and challenging him to a bike race because they live in the same city. Colpo's even cited one of DR's stalkers as credible evidence against him, showing that it's just a personal battle and not something where they are actually discussing dietary disagreements in a civil way. And I do think that the fact that he has the same picture of himself from when he first started his blog, which you can view on the way back machine, says something because a lot can happen in 12 years. But also, did you not see the video where he's about to fight DR right in person where he's screaming and yelling? Angry over nonsense. His diet may be making him angry. You can't just believe threads about people or a way of eating 100% because people are vindictive and they have personal motivations to try to tear someone down or make them look bad. Human physiology doesn't care about people bickering at each other. Human physiology is human physiology. Certain foods do certain things for most people, most of the time.

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[tankasnowgod]

But also, did you not see the video where he's about to fight DR right in person where he's screaming and yelling? Angry over nonsense. His diet may be making him angry.

I did not see this video, nor had any knowledge of it's existence. If you have a link to it, please share.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I think it is relevant because for all we know it could have been Colpo himself who posted those heath problem threads on that forum. Look at all the time he's put into DR over nothing. Over DR just trolling him a bit and challenging him to a bike race because they live in the same city. Colpo's even cited one of DR's stalkers as credible evidence against him, showing that it's just a personal battle and not something where they are actually discussing dietary disagreements in a civil way. And I do think that the fact that he has the same picture of himself from when he first started his blog, which you can view on the way back machine, says something because a lot can happen in 12 years.

So you don't trust Colpo? Fine. You can do a google search specifically to the 30BAD site, and come up plenty of results for weight gain, stomach pain, tooth issues, and so on.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

I did not see this video, nor had any knowledge of it's existence. If you have a link to it, please share.

Go to 3:08 and then in the end he shows Colpo's face.