IP6 For Iron Chelation

[javacody]

I don't think I've read much about Ray not liking phytic acid. That's more of a Paleo thing

I've read more about the estrogen in all beans and the fiber irritating the gut. Those are the big issues I can remember.

But you know what, why don't you just email Ray about this particular subject and see what he says?

 

[narouz]

I don't think I've read much about Ray not liking phytic acid. That's more of a Paleo thing

I've read more about the estrogen in all beans and the fiber irritating the gut. Those are the big issues I can remember.

But you know what, why don't you just email Ray about this particular subject and see what he says?

I hope you're right, Cody.
But seems like I have it lodged back in the corner of my brain
that Peat doesn't like phytic acid.
I have the notion that it comes into play with beans and grains, maybe.
Irritates the gut in Peat's view.
Inflammation.
etc.

I think that's largely why I avoid whole grains especially.
And beans.

I love both of those foods.

 

[javacody]

You might be right.

I love beans too.

But check this out. Have you read it before?

http://docslide.us/documents/ray-peat-the-bean-syndrome.html

 

[narouz]

You might be right.

I love beans too.

But check this out. Have you read it before?

http://docslide.us/documents/ray-peat-the-bean-syndrome.html

Hey, thanks for that link, Cody!
I'm in the mood to read something exactly like that!!

 

[Tarmander]

I go in: 17
I go back 56 days later: 17
I go back 56 days later: 17
etc...

I know those simple measures don't tell the whole story.
But I've had more sensitive iron bloodwork done
and it tends to be high, to way high.
One time a couple years ago
it was so high that I did the arithmetic of ratios for hemachromotosis
and I was (barely) in.
But a specialist said I didn't have hemachromotosis.
He said on the x-rays I had post my appendectomy
my liver would be all black--that's how people with hemachromotosis show...

I've had trouble with thyroid meds assimilating well.
Iron can do that.

I had irritated anus after pooping--bumps appeared on butt for like 6 months, sometimes bled a little.
Those are gone and my butt is better!
But still...I think too much iron in me. :)

Hey narouz, quick question for you. I went in and gave blood and my iron level was at 16, is that high? Do you have a reference range for that? I tried to ask the lady and she said the highest she had seen was like 28 and the lowest 4.

 

[narouz]

I go in: 17
I go back 56 days later: 17
I go back 56 days later: 17
etc...

I know those simple measures don't tell the whole story.
But I've had more sensitive iron bloodwork done
and it tends to be high, to way high.
One time a couple years ago
it was so high that I did the arithmetic of ratios for hemachromotosis
and I was (barely) in.
But a specialist said I didn't have hemachromotosis.
He said on the x-rays I had post my appendectomy
my liver would be all black--that's how people with hemachromotosis show...

I've had trouble with thyroid meds assimilating well.
Iron can do that.

I had irritated anus after pooping--bumps appeared on butt for like 6 months, sometimes bled a little.
Those are gone and my butt is better!
But still...I think too much iron in me. :)

Hey narouz, quick question for you. I went in and gave blood and my iron level was at 16, is that high? Do you have a reference range for that? I tried to ask the lady and she said the highest she had seen was like 28 and the lowest 4.

Tar-
I was thinking 17 is as high as it can be and they will still let you donate.
I may be wrong about that.
Actually, the last time I went in mine was 16.
But usually it is 17.
(I still intend to check on that link you gave me...thanks.)

 

[aguilaroja]

...I went in and gave blood and my iron level was at 16, is that high? Do you have a reference range for that?...

Chances are that the blood donation center measured hemoglobin through a finger-stick test. It is not really a measurement of serum iron, though it may reflect iron levels. A hemoglobin result of 16 is toward the high end of normal for men and just above the high end of normal for women,

http://www.redcrossblood.org/learn-abou ... all-donors

http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedu ... c-20015022

"The normal range for hemoglobin is:
For men, 13.5 to 17.5 grams per deciliter
For women, 12.0 to 15.5 grams per deciliter"

 

[Tarmander]

...I went in and gave blood and my iron level was at 16, is that high? Do you have a reference range for that?...

Chances are that the blood donation center measured hemoglobin through a finger-stick test. It is not really a measurement of serum iron, though it may reflect iron levels. A hemoglobin result of 16 is toward the high end of normal for men and just above the high end of normal for women,

http://www.redcrossblood.org/learn-abou ... all-donors

http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedu ... c-20015022

"The normal range for hemoglobin is:
For men, 13.5 to 17.5 grams per deciliter
For women, 12.0 to 15.5 grams per deciliter"

Thanks for this! This is actually really interesting...the more I think about this the more I think it is probably not a great reflection of iron levels, maybe loose correlation. High altitudes would increase it obviously as an adaptive response to thinner air. You could probably get yourself in all kinds of trouble reading too far into this.

 

[narouz]

Danny Roddy: I have a mini story about this. So, my ferritin was about 150. I had it measured about a year ago. And I went about four times and we won’t talk about how I was able to do it that many times.

Danny, that wily fox.
thanks!

 

[gbolduev]

Retention of iron in the liver is due to low estrogen. Peat is super wrong on this. Women after menopause start retaining iron in their livers also, since their estrogen levels fall.

Basically if you are stressed you will use a lot of pregnenolone to make progesterone for cortisol and aldo pathway and will have very little DHEA. That will put your testosterone and estradiol into the lower part of the range. And you will start accumulating iron and copper in the liver. The mechanism how it works is this.

To release iron from the liver you need xanthine oxidase which runs on vitamin B2 and molybdenum, then you need ceruloplasmin to oxidize iron and put it on transferrin.

SO here we can possibly have 2 problems , lack of B2 or molybdenum , and lack of DHEA from stress so there is very little estrogen made.LOW estrogen equals low ceruloplasmin which equals no iron on transferrin and tons of it in ferritin.

Another problem is suppressing estrogen)))) like Peat advices, and then you run low on zinc no matter what you do and you wear glasses as thick as a windshield in your car)). Estrogen is needed to make zinc bioavailable since without bioavailable copper that estrogen provides your zinc levels will be suppressed. And when you run low on bioavailable zinc your protein synthesis goes down the drain and what suffers first. Yes you got it, the tiny muscles around your eyes. NOW we look at the thickness of PEATs glasses))) Cant see his eyes behind those. It is funny that I had exactly the same when I got sick before I got into all this medical crap. I remember I was driving a car and I could not see the signs on the road and my eyes constantly got tired .



SO the good idea would be to test your DHEA,Pregnenolone and also B2 and molybdenum status. IF you have low pregnenolone, that is most likely you have SIBO in the gut, since prenenolone is made from cholesterol and koenzym A which requires B5 in its active form --pantethine and acetic acid( vinegar).
B5 recycling depends on the gut.

That is why so many people are helped with simple vinegar plus brewest yeast.

Also iron chelation is good, but dont forget we have low iron in tissues but some free iron in the organs and also tons of iron in the liver. SO I think proper iron chelation would be by making iron bioavailable so it does not spill from the liver and making sure you have proper ceruloplasmin levels to make iron work.

I hope this makes sense


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24731011

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23041085

I usually dont look at these, but the first study was Swedish , so may be not as bull**** as FDA controlled crap on pubmed)))

 

[narouz]

Retention of iron in the liver is due to low estrogen. Peat is super wrong on this. Women after menopause start retaining iron in their livers also, since their estrogen levels fall.

gbolduev!
Thank you very much for your take!
You probably realize I will have to go sit inside my
DePeating Cone of Silence for a while
in order to make sense of your views.

So, as you note, in PeatLand
we programmatically try to avoid estrogen,
through the foods we select,
and to suppress it through various supplements we take--
some more adventurously than others with the supplements
with haidut doing a lot of interesting research along those lines, as you know.

But you strongly disagree with Peat on this approach.
Because that estrogen avoidance/suppression theme is so pronounced with Peat,
could you predict--from your point of view--a general pattern of health consequences?
I mean, especially with regard to iron.

I've enjoyed your discussions with haidut,
and I like exploring alternative ideas.
If I wanted to learn more about your "school of thought,"
if I can call it that,
could you point me in some directions?

As I'm trying to recall now from things you've said,
I think you draw strongly from the ideas of Paul Eck
and his associate...is it Watts?
And then there are "disciples" (maybe you could call them):
Wilson and Rick Malter, to name a couple.
I think you may've disparaged some of Wilson's notions?

I really don't know...maybe you've just developed your own Gbolduevian School of Thought...? :)

I will see if I can get those labs you recommend.
You note:
-b2
-molybdenum
-DHEA
-pregnenolone
-would ceruloplasmin labs also be useful?

And what about hair analysis?
I think this is your central tool, yes?
It's expensive...but I could think about it....

In the meantime,
would you encourage or discourage experimentation
with some of the things you mention?
-b2
-molybdenum
-DHEA
-pregnenolone?
-brewers yeast and vinegar
-zinc
-(what about magnesium? seems to enhance ceruloplasmin...? )
I get the idea that you don't agree with big doses of DHEA or pregnenolone.

And I guess you'd discourage Peat-oriented supplements designed to suppress estrogen?

Is there any general way of eating/diet you favor,
that harmonizes with the health ideas you've been discussing?

For whatever they may be worth,
here are some labs of mine from back in April.
My TSH was high, and I've taken more NDT since then
and now my TSH is around 0.7
Haven't tested my iron-related numbers again though.

GGT 82 HIGH IU/L 0-65 01
Iron Bind.Cap.(TIBC) 378 ug/dL 250-450 01
UIBC 174 ug/dL 150-375 01
Iron, Serum 204 HIGH ug/dL 40-155 01
Iron Saturation 54 % 15-55 01
Ferritin, Serum 74 ng/mL 30-400 01
Hemoglobin 16.1 g/dL 12.6-17.7 01
T4,Free(Direct) 0.45 LOW ng/dL 0.82-1.77 01
TSH 6.610 HIGH uIU/mL 0.450-4.500 01
Reverse T3, Serum 8.4 LOW ng/dL 9.2-24.1 01
Triiodothyronine,Free,Serum 2.9 pg/mL 2.0-4.4 01
PTH, Intact 41 pg/mL 15-65 01

 

[gbolduev]

Narouz

When were these tests done? After you took NDT or before. IRON will be raised in blood if your thyroid hormones are low. Since body will try to use as much thyroid hormones as you have with better efficiency thus it raises iron. In reality after you take T3. Your iron should go from blood into ferritin.

Every case is different. I agree with Peat on certain body chemistry. I totally disagree with him on suppressing anything with drugs. Hormones are raised for a reason. Cortisol is doing its job , it is not a mistake. Peat is saying diet can fix everything. If it could people would not be sick.

Every person needs to be tested properly to know what is wrong with him. More and more people try supplements and listen to cure it all gurus. And cancer rates are skyrocketing now. If you dont know what you doing, you are doing harm. Period. I would just go to the ocean and try to swim in sea water as much as possible and take nothing if I knew nothing about this stuff.

I studied Eck,he is dead, I studied other 20 -30 systems and takes. I go by my understanding how it all works,that is why I used hair blood and ABGS. To know what is in blood what is in the cell, and what is compensation. Eck wanted to use just hair. I think it is wrong. since \I saw people with identical hair and different ABGS. And hair made sense also, but the corrective program should have been different for 2 of these people only ARL gave them the same supplements

 

[narouz]

Narouz

When were these tests done? After you took NDT or before. IRON will be raised in blood if your thyroid hormones are low. Since body will try to use as much thyroid hormones as you have with better efficiency thus it raises iron. In reality after you take T3. Your iron should go from blood into ferritin.

Before adequate NDT, gbold.

In a nutshell,
for about a year I had been unable to dose up appropriately with NDT
because if I went higher than 1&1/2 grains
I would get pretty bad palpitations, racing, skipping.

Then about 2 or 3 months ago,
after taking lysine, methylene blue, eggshell calcium,
avoiding D3 and red meat and nightshades
(I won't burden you with my hare-brained rationale),
something changed finally
and I have been able to dose up to 2&1/2grains NDT for a couple of months now
TSH 0.7
Temps and pulses better (by Peat standards).

When I went to donate blood about a month ago the finger-stick test showed 16grams per deciliter.
This after about one month of appropriate NDT.

I bolded D3 above,
because I think maybe in your Eckian school of thought
D3 supplementation can lead to a cascade of bad things...?

 

[gbolduev]

Of course if you take T3 in your body chemistry, you will feel bad at first. Since it will take time for iron to go from blood into ferritin. That is why you needed to start super slow and add T3 higher and higher. What you did instead is lower potassium in the cell with calcium and now you can tolerate T3. I am not quite sure if body would want to decrease iron in blood in this case.

You should repeat your tests for iron ferritin etc.

 

[narouz]

Of course if you take T3 in your body chemistry, you will feel bad at first. Since it will take time for iron to go from blood into ferritin. That is why you needed to start super slow and add T3 higher and higher. What you did instead is lower potassium in the cell with calcium and now you can tolerate T3. But I doubt it was the right thing to do.

I was shorthanding, g.
I had been able to take the 1&1/2 grain dosage without palpitations.
I measured TSH at 1&1/2 grains NDT: around 7
Added 1/2grain.
Waited 2 weeks.
Took TSH: down to about 4
Added another 1/2 grain (to total of 2&1/2 grains)
Waited 2 weeks.
Took TSH: down to about 0.7

So you think the significant thing I did
was my addition of about 1500mg eggshell calcium per day,
which lowered potassium in cell.
And that allowed me to take T4/T3 NDT without getting palpitations.

But...you think probably not an ideal resolution.

I am willing to agree with you.
I still have pretty severe lower back/hip ache.
Tinnitus seems to have worsened a bit.
My poops are improved but still kinda weird---solid but little and ragged.
Nearly always wake up at about 4 or 5 am.
Low libido.
Low energy.
Wah, wah, wah.

On the other hand, some significant improvements since I can take the NDT without palps....

 

[narouz]

...Eck wanted to use just hair. I think it is wrong. since \I saw people with identical hair and different ABGS. And hair made sense also, but the corrective program should have been different for 2 of these people only ARL gave them the same supplements

I'm thinking "ARL" must be these guys...?
http://www.arltma.com/

 

[narouz]

Do you know your current ceruloplasmin levels?

Wilfrid-
I've been looking into ceruloplasmin a bit.
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/22/15/6578.full.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceruloplasmin
http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/118/11/3146?sso-checked=true

gbolduev talks about it a little, above.

Somewhere...can't find it right now...someone said magnesium
helped enhance ceruloplasmin levels.
I've had trouble taking magnesium in the past,
and generally, Peat says, using magnesium is hard for hypothyroid people (I am).

 

[Tarmander]

gbolduev You have some interesting theories about estrogen and its use in iron. What I can't figure out though is the environmental aspect of it. If what you say is true and peat is wrong, then our exposure to various forms of estrogen and xenoestrogen in our environment should not be all that bad right? From what I've read many of the plastics and pesticides and chemicals that we have been exposed to in the last century or so act a lot like estrogen. I have assumed that these for the most part are not good for you in really anyway. Could you expand on this?

 

[gbolduev]

NO it is very bad to be exposed to estrogen mimics. You get exposed to estrogen mimic and your body thinks you are full of copper and thus it does not release its own estrogen and copper stays in the liver. Stuck there for ever. Estrogen mimic does not act as estrogen in most cases, some phytoestrogens do act like estrogen and that is exactly why asian people dont age cause their diets are full of phytoestrogens. I think they actually overdo on that part, thus have no body hair but live long long lives and some of them at 80 look 50. I saw so many of them when I lived in Thailand.

But metals like mercury lead are estrogen mimics also , means that they tell body that they are copper.

Exposure to estrogen mimic is death, since in that case your own estrogen is lowerd and copper stays in the liver. But estrogen mimic cant make copper come out like real estrogen can. I guess there is not enough sensitivity

 

[narouz]

Just wanted to note,
in regards to gbold's preferred tests...

I've checked into the hair analysis thing.
I think he approves of Trace Elements lab.
For a long time I couldn't find any way to get Trace Elements
or ARL
to let non-professionals have a hair tissue mineral analysis done (HTMA).
But I think I found a way.
And, as I recall, the price is I think $160.
Not as terribly high as I had thought.
I will post the link soon.

Now on the other tests gbold likes:
I looked into the arterial blood gases test (ABG).
There...seems like in the USA at least there may be no way around going through a doctor.
Doesn't seem like the price would be really high.
Just couldn't find any way to get a direct test, cutting out doctors.

And then gbold also said he likes to see a slew of blood tests.
He enumerated them to Janelle over in the other thread about bicarbonates and CO2
or whatever the hell it is.
There were a lot of them!
But I will try to investigate and see if they are available direct
and hopefully put a pricetag on them.

I don't mean to hijack my own thread.
Can you do that!?
But...really not a hijack.
The thread is about iron chelation,
and gbold has some stimulating, if distinctly "alternative," ideas there.
Ideally, maybe I should think about breaking this aspect of the thread off
and creating a new thread about gbolduevian labs, etc.
Of course, the forum would have to create a new department--
I kinda like the title
Peat Infidels and their Evil Ideas.
Charlie could maybe create a virtual stoning function.
Not stoning unto death.
Just a good thumping to beat the Peat back into the Infidels....