Low Toxin Diet Mike Fave trying to "debunk" the low vitamin A diet(he actually looks a bit yellow).

[High_Prob]

It's so complex, all he talks about is serotonin and estrogen!

Those are not complex

I've read Grant's books and

Mike just posted a "debunking" video of the Low Vitamin A. Calling us "Zealots":

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twZHuy5EoqA


I used to really like Mike's work but this shows that he is actually pretty dogmatic. He actually looks pretty unhealthy I bet he has a really high level of vitamin A accumulation. I remember hearing him on an energy balance podcast talking about having a lot of issues with bile acid(I wonder why). I think we are going to have to fight pretty hard against the misinformation of these sick people.

@charlie @Nick @mosaic01 @PopSocket

It may be useful for the low vitamin A members to post periodic of themselves, so that we can see progression in different stages of your journey.

As we speak another Ray Peater has their teeth literally crumbling. Another victim of the Ray Peat diet as they poison themselves with "vitamin A" and destroy their bodies all in the name of bioenergetics. And before anyone goes and blames it on the pregnancy, this has happened to hundreds if not thousands of people on the Ray Peat toxic diet including me. Even Ray Peat himself.

View attachment 62014

But these are the Peat followers that think that Peat is telling them to eat massive amounts of sugar, fruit, juice. How about the Peat followers that don’t do that?

 

[charlie]

It's hard to see in this video but it looks like Mike Fave might be an under type which would mean his liver is severely compromised. His cheeks are sunken in, and he looks gaunt. I admit its hard to tell because in his videos he wears baggy/bigger shirts and his video never shows his entire body. It is no wonder he cannot handle milk and dairy.

 

[DanDare]

Gumlines are particularly vulnerable because
1. food particles and hence acids accumulate there, in the nook between teeth and gum, and do the most damage.
2. When people brush, the gumline will also hold the toothpaste, and divert the toothbrush bristles, and so having more bristles and paste acting on it. think of how the bristles of a brush are clumped together if you bush into a corner. This is a lot worse if brushing sideways instead of up and down.
3. Then if salvia and or inner tooth supply, however it works, is not reconstructive to the teeth at a greater rate than the damage being done, then they will not form a new protective hard surface to replace ( which actually looks whiter, than the worn enamel.

 

[brongfogboy]

I'm glad to see he touched on the point that this diet could be working for many people simply because it is definitely a lower carb elimination diet. Before I was cured from PFS I was eating a diet extremely similar to this and it made me feel much better, I described this similar (minus the beans) diet on the PFS boards many times. However, the fact that there are people who are eliminating vitamin A and yet their bloodwork shows an increase in vitamin A raises some very important questions and is IMO strongly supporting the toxic vitamin A theory. I have no skin in this game as I feel great and don't want to change anything, but I am very interested to see where this goes.

 

[Dominus]

I'm glad to see he touched on the point that this diet could be working for many people simply because it is definitely a lower carb elimination diet. Before I was cured from PFS I was eating a diet extremely similar to this and it made me feel much better, I described this similar (minus the beans) diet on the PFS boards many times. However, the fact that there are people who are eliminating vitamin A and yet their bloodwork shows an increase in vitamin A raises some very important questions and is IMO strongly supporting the toxic vitamin A theory. I have no skin in this game as I feel great and don't want to change anything, but I am very interested to see where this goes.

I eat oat meal, white rice and beans. I'm not sure where the lower carb diet is. Maybe relative to the Peat inspired diet I was on for sure.....

 

[charlie]

As we speak another Ray Peater has their teeth literally crumbling. Another victim of the Ray Peat diet as they poison themselves with "vitamin A" and destroy their bodies all in the name of bioenergetics. And before anyone goes and blames it on the pregnancy, this has happened to hundreds if not thousands of people on the Ray Peat toxic diet including me. Even Ray Peat himself.

View attachment 62014

Someone pointed out that I am being accused of making this screenshot up. If anyone would like to verify this they can go in the "Ray Peat Inspired" Facebook group and check it out for themselves. I did not post the persons name because it is a private group and I respect peoples privacy.

Plain and simple, the Ray Peat toxic diet destroys teeth, bones, thyroids, livers and health.

Here is a post I did after doing a quick search on gum line and teeth here at the forum:

Danny's crusade against Mercola on Progest-E

"Migraines is a symtom of ......" You can complete this with 999+ different words depending on your current belief. The cope is real....... 14. MCP (PC) Cholesterol went to 630, has high liver numbers, IBS is...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Jabuger]

I thought the video was pretty good and he definitely points out some things to be careful with in this new paradigm.

Detox or not?
He points out that there is a lot of talk about detox reactions in this space and that it always comes back to “vitamin A bad”. Oh you feel great on this diet well that’s cuz vitamin A is toxic or oh you feel terrible on this diet.. your pushing detox to hard and flooding yourself with stored Vitamin A.

This is obviously something to be wary of with this new way of thinking, but if the general trend is towards better health and people seem to be overall getting better then we probably can make the discernment that bad experiences may have been detox reactions. This does seem to be the general trend of this diet.

We cannot test…

Mike says that as the only way to confirm is through liver biopsy then we can never know how much stored VA we have therefore how can we blame a problem on Va. I think this a pretty easy one as we see people who are on this diet for 2+ years and their serum retinol hasn’t changed we can probably make a pretty safe assumption that they and everyone has loads of stored VA.

Another point he makes is history. He says if someone has a history of reduced VA intake then we can safely say that their problem isn’t VA. This is actually a good point but you’d have to be 100% sure they were on reduced VA.

I think his points are fair enough though some can be refuted.

 

[DanDare]

1.

Mike says that as the only way to confirm is through liver biopsy then we can never know how much stored VA we have therefore how can we blame a problem on Va. I think this a pretty easy one as we see people who are on this diet for 2+ years and their serum retinol hasn’t changed we can probably make a pretty safe assumption that they and everyone has loads of stored VA.

2.

Another point he makes is history. He says if someone has a history of reduced VA intake then we can safely say that their problem isn’t VA. This is actually a good point but you’d have to be 100% sure they were on reduced VA.

I think his points are fair enough though some can be refuted.

Points 1 and 2 somewhat contradict one another.

I think the following is an important idea:

Vit A in body = vit a intake - vit a excretion

I.e

High vit a. = High intake - normal excretion

Or

High vit a = low intake - very low excretion


Some people may have poor excretion ( e.g perhaps due to a low fibre diet or due to a toxic start in life) and so become toxic even on low amounts.

There are definitely factors which influence excretion, for example potassium, niacin, fibre etc

 

[samhain323]

First, lets change the title of the video from “Beware of the Low Vitamin A Zealots” to “Beware of Zealots.” If you disagree with the new title, read no further, you are probably a member of the zealot class.





For starters, the op’s title is misleading. Mike does not seem to be “debunking” anything. He even states he needs to read through Grant’s work and then the research used to understand what arguments are being made and the material used to make them. He specifically mentions not wanting to set up a “straw man” fallacy. So that leads me to believe the video was not watched, the watcher was not being objective, or …. See above.



Mike also agrees that vitamin A, and various other items, can be toxic and cause issues, and that changes incorporated according to low toxicity principles can be beneficial.



He then points out some common pitfalls in reasoning associated with diets and dogmas in general and gives specific examples. Conflation is an issue he mentions, and I have had numerous issues with myself (changing way too many variables at once and being unable to attribute outcome to a specific variable).



Towards the end, around minute 54 or so, he gives a summary overview of how we should approach dietary changes/intervention in general.



If you don’t have time to watch the video, min 53-54 onward gives the gist of his thinking. But in short, he’s basically suggesting a cautionary, methodical, approach to dietary changes, but he does this in context of the “low-toxin / low vit-a” approach.



Lastly, he uses the word “zelotic”, he gets a bonus point for that.



Seriously, there is some serious dogmatic echo-chamber attitude flying around this forum. I’m a new-comer, and I fully expected some great critical thinking and reasoning posts when I came (based on my outside experience with bioenergetic proponents) but must say I’ve been pretty disappointed. I find nothing more distasteful than blind adherence to anything, and I’m seeing that way too often.



That being said, I try to keep an open mind. I don’t think I’ve seen any dietary lifestyle out there that didn’t have some redeeming quality (even vegans….). I think there is good information to be gleaned from the low-toxin camp for sure but would need a whole lot of convincing to lay every human ailment at the feet of high toxicity/toxic bile/vit a toxicity.

 

[hgun48]

Is being a little bit of a BS artist a hallmark of high functioning metabolism?

People who scam generally sound good when they speak.

 

[hgun48]

I probably would have had a similar perspective to his if I had not turned orange, at which point I realized that so many of my problems and the problems of people I know are explained perfectly by toxic bile theory and toxic vitamin-A.

I am glad he is honest that he is still researching Grant Genereux and toxic bile theory, but perhaps it would have been better to do more of that research before commenting on the subject. That's just my opinion.

I feel like many attribute to tan what is actually orange(or yellow) from excess vitamin A

 

[PeterSN]

It is reported Mike Fave has lost his gallbladder. If true, that already points to "vitamin A" toxicity and cholestasis.

He said he lost his gallbladder BEFORE getting into Peat's work, he was actually eat close to zero fat, and it has been well established that eating close to zero fat can stagnate bile flow.

This is the only thing that concerns me over this low toxin approach, as I'm not sure what to eat fat wise, Dr Garret Smith even says to avoid coconut oil, butter, I'm not sure what to eat fat wise?

 

[taralynne]

He said he lost his gallbladder BEFORE getting into Peat's work, he was actually eat close to zero fat, and it has been well established that eating close to zero fat can stagnate bile flow.

This is the only thing that concerns me over this low toxin approach, as I'm not sure what to eat fat wise, Dr Garret Smith even says to avoid coconut oil, butter, I'm not sure what to eat fat wise?

Dr. Smith doesn't recommend a low-fat diet, he just recommends no to low added fat. So fat from whole foods like beef is good; though, if you are an "over" type its good to drain the excess fat.

 

[Ledo]

I like Mike and think he will come around. he started out fine saying yup its a toxin and can be poisonous etc and said he needed to research more etc and said he was going to remain open and un-biased until this was done and then proceeded to ignore all that and go on a big rant.

 

[Ben.]

First, lets change the title of the video from “Beware of the Low Vitamin A Zealots” to “Beware of Zealots.” If you disagree with the new title, read no further, you are probably a member of the zealot class.





For starters, the op’s title is misleading. Mike does not seem to be “debunking” anything. He even states he needs to read through Grant’s work and then the research used to understand what arguments are being made and the material used to make them. He specifically mentions not wanting to set up a “straw man” fallacy. So that leads me to believe the video was not watched, the watcher was not being objective, or …. See above.



Mike also agrees that vitamin A, and various other items, can be toxic and cause issues, and that changes incorporated according to low toxicity principles can be beneficial.



He then points out some common pitfalls in reasoning associated with diets and dogmas in general and gives specific examples. Conflation is an issue he mentions, and I have had numerous issues with myself (changing way too many variables at once and being unable to attribute outcome to a specific variable).



Towards the end, around minute 54 or so, he gives a summary overview of how we should approach dietary changes/intervention in general.



If you don’t have time to watch the video, min 53-54 onward gives the gist of his thinking. But in short, he’s basically suggesting a cautionary, methodical, approach to dietary changes, but he does this in context of the “low-toxin / low vit-a” approach.



Lastly, he uses the word “zelotic”, he gets a bonus point for that.



Seriously, there is some serious dogmatic echo-chamber attitude flying around this forum. I’m a new-comer, and I fully expected some great critical thinking and reasoning posts when I came (based on my outside experience with bioenergetic proponents) but must say I’ve been pretty disappointed. I find nothing more distasteful than blind adherence to anything, and I’m seeing that way too often.



That being said, I try to keep an open mind. I don’t think I’ve seen any dietary lifestyle out there that didn’t have some redeeming quality (even vegans….). I think there is good information to be gleaned from the low-toxin camp for sure but would need a whole lot of convincing to lay every human ailment at the feet of high toxicity/toxic bile/vit a toxicity.

Good observation.
If you dont mind me asking ... how long have you been on the forum?
The forum wasnt like this not to long ago ...

I recommend using the forum for the treasure of information it has built up over the decade and join other forums of all kinds which helps to not get to dogmatic and keeping things in perspective.


The vitamin a approach is a fairly new turn of events that compromises most regular postings now and alot of regular posters have left (both voluntary and involuntary). The forum has (or used to have) all kinds of people doing different things and trying different approaches. Some posts were highly educational and scientific, others where more anecdotal or theoretical.

I personally am sad how things turned out ... but im also curious what the vitamin a depletion experiment will lead to with thoose trying it.

 

[hgun48]

Dear Mike,

Mike you should perhaps have taken the time to perceive and think on Grant's ideas, his evidence, his experiments before acting, even if you have acknowledged you have not read Grant's work.

Otherwise your video just sounds tribal rather than scientific, no matter how much you stress what is common sense scientific method to most people.

Grant is alive after 10 years of virtually no vitamin A, has healthy blood work, healthy testosterone, TSH, cholesterol etc, almost ZERO vit A, and feels better than he has done in decades.

In his surveys, the majority of people rate their individual approach to his diet from no better or worse to 10/10 improvement for a variety of conditions. And we don't know how long people had been doing it for, so this may improve.

Many of your assumptions are wrong also, too many to list.

This is the key point that needs addressing which you did not even acknowledge:

Ray Peat's ideas claim Grant should not have steroid hormones, yet Grant clearly does.
The Scientific establishment, which all of a sudden we agree with when it's in our favor, claims he should be blind, not have skin, not heal from wounds, have frequent chest infections, have acne etc etc.

Dismissing anecdotes as weak evidence is very pro establishment...

Nevermind the mechanisms of how 'vit a' is essential, of how or what Ray Peat ( rip) said. If the experimental results we are observing are not lies, then those theories are wrong. If everyone knows there are no black swans yet we see a black swan, then there are black swans. One hundred reasons or voices claiming there are no black swans are wrong.

Until you want to directly address Grant's self experiments and his gerbils experiments, you are wasting your time on things incidental, irrelevant, unimportant, and cementing yourself a position without due perceiving or thinking. You have jumped straight to acting.

Yeah I think Grant is such a clear success in this area that it is strange to ignore all the evidence from his life experience as you say. Feels very authoritarian to discount Grant's life experience.

 

[hgun48]

All great points Dan.
The fact that we have many people now running around pretty much zero Vitamin A shows that everything written about Vitamin A is completely wrong.

If you can survive on none you probably don't need it.

 

[hgun48]

Dr. Garrett Smith posted his recently and it was around 900. This is with him running a successful business, running two podcasts every week for years and not missing a day. Running a clinical practice, taking care of his two kids along with his elderly mother and then the stress of saving the world from "vitamin A" pushers like you. God Bless that man.

Many men have reported with test results that they have had incredible testosterone rises and they report along with myself feeling like teenagers again. Something happens for the men around year 2 or 3 and testosterone starts to surge. A true gift from Heaven.

Dr. Garrett Smith oozes alphaness. I hope to achieve his level and I think I'm well on my way.

 

[hgun48]

It's hard to see in this video but it looks like Mike Fave might be an under type which would mean his liver is severely compromised. His cheeks are sunken in, and he looks gaunt. I admit its hard to tell because in his videos he wears baggy/bigger shirts and his video never shows his entire body. It is no wonder he cannot handle milk and dairy.

Baggy clothes are almost always worn to hide excess fat. He's hiding it when he could just detox, rise from the ashes and shed it all.

 

[PopSocket]

Just want to chime in and say that even though the previous state of the forum had a lot of "critical thinking" and scientific discussions by very smart people and it was all "cutting-edge" knowledge, the previous dogmas had very little result in terms of improving health. What I got from following the main ideas is I had to hop on thyroid :-D which I never actually needed before while doing it "wrong". Results are a lot more important than looking cool and sophisticated. Let's see where this thing goes in a couple of years.