Processing the change. Moving forward….

[Peatful]

So last night I went to sleep feeling like many people on this forum have a lot of toxic shame. They project that on people when they claim something is doing them harm. It's literally the same thing as victim blaming.

Ya'll need to step outside and see the number of people who have abandoned many of the recommendations. I have seen a number of old time Ray Peat supporters following the toxic bile theory.

Let's just get past that. We don't live in a vacuum. We are all influenced by the people we trust. Especially when we are sick and vulnerable.

It'd be like blaming the patient when the doctor harms them. Saying you should have known better! No the doctor should have known better not to take advantage of a sick person.

I was taken advantage of by a prominent Ray Peat practitioner. Someone who a lot of people respected and trusted. He went against some things Ray taught but it was only slighted twisted. Deception has a slight twist. And being in a sick vulnerable state I didn't have much executive functioning. He also took advantage of me sexually. (And many others).

Same thing when I was raped in my own bedroom by a family member's friend at 16. I froze. I blamed myself for 'allowing it'. But now that society is trauma informed no one blames a woman for the sins of a man who takes advantage of the vulnerability of women (or men for that matter as men can be raped too).

We need to stop shaming people. When we are sick we don't always know what path to take. Many ideas were circulating that were harmful. We are changing course and helping people out of the rut they got in. And I still think Ray got some key things wrong, doesn't mean we go against all of his teachings, but we are free to speak about what was going wrong.

Healing is multi-faceted and we need to be free to talk about all aspects of healing whether it conflicts with a teaching from Ray or not.

Who?

 

[purple pill]

@charlie may point us to his recently posted header
But
With that
Maybe he will also let us know of his long term goals and vision for the forum

Then we know what we are dealing with
And decide, settle in or adjust accordingly

Id say the best long term goal for the forum is to wait and see how it progresses naturally with the new information provided.
Its clear we can't fully rely on studies, they can be good to formulate a new premise but until enough people try new a new diet paradigm and we get feedback we can't know how true the premise is. (if it works its true) For example theres many people on the forum that has come from keto diets which have plenty of studies to back up the health benefits of this particular way of eating, many felt great for a while and then absolute garbage until they found Peats info. That's not to say that keto doesn't have any benefits for some people short term but i feel the aim of the game here is to find a somewhat universal diet that people can use to find better health and adjust accordingly depending on their specific tastes and reactions to certain foods. I know alot of people say we are all different which is true but we're still the same "species" so their should atleast be a framework or general diet guidelines that meets the needs of the vast majority of people. My take-away so far from a year on this forum towards a healthy "universal diet", or atleast a starting point-

-High carb is preferential, and the vast majority of people on this forum (based on a poll here iirc) get there carbs from complex carbs
-Low fat is beneficial (randle cycle, diabetes etc), theres does seem to be alot of variation on peoples individual needs but lower fat seems a given for benefits
-low pufa
-getting protein around 1g per kg

Things still to be determined by enough feedback
- low A- still on the fence with this but there is mounting evidence that supplentation via retinol and liver is definitely harmful, its also unfortunate that the US enriches skimmed milk. I know the low VA crowd say there is alot of vitamin A in non enriched milk bound to casein but its still a powerhouse of vits and minerals, so for me for the time being ill still very much enjoy my milk until my body tells me otherwise.
-toxic bile- this looks like a given to me, binding bile with fibre to excrete out the body has been well discussed in the forum in the past. some ponderings lately- being scottish oats has very much been the staple here for many a year, along with being known for being heavy drinkers, all the older generations could and still do drink alcohol for fun.....oats have very much run out of favour here (don't know anyone that eats porridge now) and the newer generation couldn't handle soup lol. Connection? I don't know just some ponderings lol, the toxic bile folks favour oats for clearing out the liver.

I'd like to re-itterate again that studies are seeming more and more pointless, how many studies have been posted here that this vitamin or that mineral or this substance here has this benefit or does this or that or cured X amount of people only to be found absolutely useless for anyone that tries it for whatever ailment the study professes to cure. Yes I know studies aren't as black and white as this and can be helpfull but personally im pretty sick of studies, i'd rather see a hundred or so willing participents on here test a new theory like VA taxic and report back with there findings.

 

[InChristAlone]

Who?

Well I don't really want to turn this thread about him. If you want to know the history of it it's probably still around in the Ray Pet Inspired group on Facebook. Though I deleted my account so any posts I made about it are gone. He was never very active over here. He had his own membership group I think it was called meandering toward greatness. He was the one who had a go fund me for hospital bills from his kidney failure (he was really really into using vitamin A supps).

But this is not about him, it's about calling out shaming people for 'not doing the diet right' or 'not taking responsibility for following the wrong diet'. Which is like blaming the sick patient when the doctor harms them.

 

[Mr Joe]

So last night I went to sleep feeling like many people on this forum have a lot of toxic shame. They project that on people when they claim something is doing them harm. It's literally the same thing as victim blaming.

Ya'll need to step outside and see the number of people who have abandoned many of the recommendations. I have seen a number of old time Ray Peat supporters following the toxic bile theory.

Let's just get past that. We don't live in a vacuum. We are all influenced by the people we trust. Especially when we are sick and vulnerable.

It'd be like blaming the patient when the doctor harms them. Saying you should have known better! No the doctor should have known better not to take advantage of a sick person.

I was taken advantage of by a prominent Ray Peat practitioner. Someone who a lot of people respected and trusted. He went against some things Ray taught but it was only slighted twisted. Deception has a slight twist. And being in a sick vulnerable state I didn't have much executive functioning. He also took advantage of me sexually. (And many others).

Same thing when I was raped in my own bedroom by a family member's friend at 16. I froze. I blamed myself for 'allowing it'. But now that society is trauma informed no one blames a woman for the sins of a man who takes advantage of the vulnerability of women (or men for that matter as men can be raped too).

We need to stop shaming people. When we are sick we don't always know what path to take. Many ideas were circulating that were harmful. We are changing course and helping people out of the rut they got in. And I still think Ray got some key things wrong, doesn't mean we go against all of his teachings, but we are free to speak about what was going wrong.

Healing is multi-faceted and we need to be free to talk about all aspects of healing whether it conflicts with a teaching from Ray or not.

How would you feel if I come to your church where Christ believer used to come having nice time and enjoy for 10 years and because I became Muslim I start to tell you "I believe the idea of God having a son false" and then explain you that God is not something material that could have son or something. You will probably tell me "you don't understand Its metaphorical etc.." fine. But what if at every verse of the bible that people says in the church I will start to say "yeah but in the quran it says different and I believe its true and bible is wrong" you will probably start to feel irritated. What if I tell you "I can express myself because I feel your are wrong about the idea that God is a humain etc.. even metaphorically and I am not insulting anyone". You will probably tell me "We are in a church and we pray jesus here why don't you go believe what you believe in a mosque" ? What now if your Priest converts and decide to change the church to a mosque ? You will feel something wrong was there.


All this story is the same thing that happened in that forum.

 

[InChristAlone]

How would you feel if I come to your church where Christ believer used to come having nice time and enjoy for 10 years and because I became Muslim I start to tell you "I believe the idea of God having a son false" and then explain you that God is not something material that could have son or something. You will probably tell me "you don't understand Its metaphorical etc.." fine. But what if at every verse of the bible that people says in the church I will start to say "yeah but in the quran it says different and I believe its true and bible is wrong" you will probably start to feel irritated. What if I tell you "I can express myself because I feel your are wrong about the idea that God is a humain etc.. even metaphorically and I am not insulting anyone". You will probably tell me "We are in a church and we pray jesus here why don't you go believe what you believe in a mosque" ? What now if your Priest converts and decide to change the church to a mosque ? You will feel something wrong was there.


All this story is the same thing that happened in that forum.

I've never heard of that happening to any church ever, they don't have the ability to convert a church to Mosque, they would first leave the church and then form their own. I have heard of people changing their mind on nutrition many times and stopping selling things they don't promote anymore. This is normal life. People are allowed to change their mind. I'm glad this place isn't a cult, even though some want it to be.

 

[Nick]

How would you feel if I come to your church where Christ believer used to come having nice time and enjoy for 10 years and because I became Muslim I start to tell you "I believe the idea of God having a son false" and then explain you that God is not something material that could have son or something. You will probably tell me "you don't understand Its metaphorical etc.." fine. But what if at every verse of the bible that people says in the church I will start to say "yeah but in the quran it says different and I believe its true and bible is wrong" you will probably start to feel irritated. What if I tell you "I can express myself because I feel your are wrong about the idea that God is a humain etc.. even metaphorically and I am not insulting anyone". You will probably tell me "We are in a church and we pray jesus here why don't you go believe what you believe in a mosque" ? What now if your Priest converts and decide to change the church to a mosque ? You will feel something wrong was there.


All this story is the same thing that happened in that forum.

Taking your church metaphor to heart:
Ray Peat should not be worshipped, he was a man.
Strategies to address health and disease need not be viewed as disparate and mutually exclusive religious sects.
A forum to discuss things like science, health and nutrition need not be a designated safe bubble for one paradigm, even that around which the community was originally formed.
There is no need to view the civil discussion of differing paradigms in the free marketplace of ideas as a threat.

 

[Mr Joe]

Taking your church metaphor to heart:
Ray Peat should not be worshipped, he was a man.
Strategies to address health and disease need not be viewed as disparate and mutually exclusive religious sects.
A forum to discuss things like science, health and nutrition need not be a designated safe bubble for one paradigm, even that around which the community was originally formed.
There is no need to view the civil discussion of differing paradigms in the free marketplace of ideas as a threat.

Where did you see I said Ray had to be worshipped ? I myself disagree on lot of things about Ray. As I said in another thread Pregnenolone never worked that much for me. Will I start to post below every post where people think it's good and tell them the contrary because I want it to be the truth ? No. I took church because I was answering to "InchristOnly" and I believe as she probably would feel irritated by some muslims coming with strong desire to make others people believe in Allah and throw Jesus son of God idea, I believe some people find this forum more interresting than Church and its their rights and coming destroying all all is not right at all.

 

[Nick]

Where did you see I said Ray had to be worshipped ? I myself disagree on lot of things about Ray. As I said in another thread Pregnenolone never worked that much for me. Will I start to post below every post where people think it's good and tell them the contrary because I want it to be the truth ? No. I took church because I was answering to "InchristOnly" and I believe as she probably would feel irritated by some muslims coming with strong desire to make others people believe in Allah and throw Jesus son of God idea, I believe some people find this forum more interresting than Church and its their rights and coming destroying all all is not right at all.

I'm sorry if my comment upset you.

 

[InChristAlone]

Where did you see I said Ray had to be worshipped ? I myself disagree on lot of things about Ray. As I said in another thread Pregnenolone never worked that much for me. Will I start to post below every post where people think it's good and tell them the contrary because I want it to be the truth ? No. I took church because I was answering to "InchristOnly" and I believe as she probably would feel irritated by some muslims coming with strong desire to make others people believe in Allah and throw Jesus son of God idea, I believe some people find this forum more interresting than Church and its their rights and coming destroying all all is not right at all.

You can't compare pregnenolone to vitamin A. I have never heard of someone destroying themselves with pregnenolone, well I take that back I knew of one person who developed panic attacks from it. But we do know of many who destroyed themselves with vit A.

 

[charlie]

Where did you see I said Ray had to be worshipped ? I myself disagree on lot of things about Ray. As I said in another thread Pregnenolone never worked that much for me. Will I start to post below every post where people think it's good and tell them the contrary because I want it to be the truth ? No. I took church because I was answering to "InchristOnly" and I believe as she probably would feel irritated by some muslims coming with strong desire to make others people believe in Allah and throw Jesus son of God idea, I believe some people find this forum more interresting than Church and its their rights and coming destroying all all is not right at all.

So here we are, presenting something that will literally change humanity. And your response is, "go away".

 

[Mr Joe]

So here we are, presenting something that will literally change humanity. And your response is, "go away".

Vegans think they will change humanity. Low carbs think they will change humanity. Carnivor think they will change humanity. Poison A think they will change the humanity. You have presented your thoughts on an "Anti-Peat thread" nobody really cared. You are now going behind just "presenting" it's more like making it omnipresent eventhough most people don't really care about it, think it's absurde. Garret is having 25k followers his posts are mostly getting 10 likes. He probably bought followers and ask the 10 people following him to write testimonials to help him. That's the truth behind all this story.

 

[charlie]

You have presented your thoughts on an "Anti-Peat thread" nobody really cared.

Nobody really cared. The highest viewed thread on the forum, but no one really cared.

ou are now going behind just "presenting" it's more like making it omnipresent eventhough most people don't really care about it, think it's absurde. Garret is having 25k followers his posts are mostly getting 10 likes. He probably bought followers and ask the 10 people following him to write testimonials to help him. That's the truth behind all this story.

 

[Mr Joe]

Nobody really cared. The highest viewed thread on the forum, but no one really cared.

That's what I meant : It was viewed and commented a lot in a specific place, anyone would be free to go and check and nobody really cared because it was an "anti-peat" thread which is ok. Now you want to make us believe that Peats idea converge with ideas taht are totally anti-Peat. And thats not really cool.
Ps : If I had posted "you maaaad" I would have probably been banned. May god be the witness of every injustice on earth.

 

[ilovethesea]

Ive spent more time on the forum yesterday than I have in months and months

And I see the infiltration

This is a valid question

@charlie may point us to his recently posted header
But
With that
Maybe he will also let us know of his long term goals and vision for the forum

Then we know what we are dealing with
And decide, settle in or adjust accordingly

Thank you. It’s very telling that my question is being ignored.

Do I think it’s ok for people to disagree with Ray and talk about why his ideas did not work for them? Absolutely. But in that case it belongs in either the “anti Peat” section we already had OR on a new forum instead of keeping his name on this one and claiming (as the new header reads) that “we are innovating and enhancing his contributions.” I find that statement so insulting to his life’s work, that suddenly people with a fraction of his experience now know better? Not sure what to make of all the religious overtones either.

I’ve been here 10 years and his ideas did and do still work for me.

It’s all highly suspicious now that he’s dead, to muddy the waters so people aren’t sure what he actually believed and perhaps to use his name for $$$ gain.

 

[charlie]

May god be the witness of every injustice on earth.

Oh thats too bad, you serve a little g god, I serve the Big G God. Have a nice day.

It’s all highly suspicious

Take your suspicions somewhere else. Disparage me or this forum and disrespect me in my house..... pay the consequences.

 

[InChristAlone]

Thank you. It’s very telling that my question is being ignored.

Do I think it’s ok for people to disagree with Ray and talk about why his ideas did not work for them? Absolutely. But in that case it belongs in either the “anti Peat” section we already had OR on a new forum instead of keeping his name on this one and claiming (as the new header reads) that “we are innovating and enhancing his contributions.” I find that statement so insulting to his life’s work, that suddenly people with a fraction of his experience now know better? Not sure what to make of all the religious overtones either.

I’ve been here 10 years and his ideas did and do still work for me.

It’s all highly suspicious now that he’s dead, to muddy the waters so people aren’t sure what he actually believed and perhaps to use his name for $$$ gain.

Did it though? Just a brief search it looks like you were dealing with a B1 deficiency and histamine intolerance?

 

[Peaterpeater]

I think the mistake we tend to make is making radical changes and not listening to our bodies. We lose touch with ourselves.
Just because carbs/ sugar generally have a pro-thyroid, anti-stress effect, doesn’t mean we have to start eating sugar liberally, whether from natural or processed sources.
Perhaps sometimes slight shifts/ adjustments are warranted, and not radical ones.
Just because fiber and starch are endotoxin promoting, it doesn’t mean that cutting them from our diet completely might be the wisest option.

For me removing fibers especially soluable fiber and most starch was exactly what I needed. No other forum talked about this. For many people with digestive issues including IBS or bowel diseases…eating soluable fiber causes fatigue, pain and brain fog and for me makes me almost disabled until my digestion clears. Can you imagine, feeling like you’ve been poisoned every time you ate food 3x a day? It was a constant crippling of sorts and I didn’t understand why because whenever I ate a bit of veg or fruit high in fiber that I thought was healthy? Ray Peat was a genius for understanding this.

 

[InChristAlone]

For me removing fibers especially soluable fiber and most starch was exactly what I needed. No other forum talked about this. For many people with digestive issues including IBS or bowel diseases…eating soluable fiber causes fatigue, pain and brain fog and for me makes me almost disabled until my digestion clears. Can you imagine, feeling like you’ve been poisoned every time you ate food 3x a day? It was a constant crippling of sorts and I didn’t understand why because whenever I ate a bit of veg or fruit high in fiber that I thought was healthy? Ray Peat was a genius for understanding this.

Unfortunately that's just symptom control. I did the same for many years. Mine was so bad refried beans could give me a panic attack a couple days later. I am now eating beans twice a day after getting my bile less toxic. The more gas the more pain you have from them the worse toxicity you have.

 

[charlie]

For me removing fibers especially soluable fiber and most starch was exactly what I needed. No other forum talked about this. For many people with digestive issues including IBS or bowel diseases…eating soluable fiber causes fatigue, pain and brain fog and for me makes me almost disabled until my digestion clears. Can you imagine, feeling like you’ve been poisoned every time you ate food 3x a day? It was a constant crippling of sorts and I didn’t understand why because whenever I ate a bit of veg or fruit high in fiber that I thought was healthy? Ray Peat was a genius for understanding this.

I have found IBS is caused my "vitamin A" and/copper toxicity and all you have done is kicked the can down the road by suppressing and not addressing the root cause. I also found that when I removed soluble fiber for long time it wrecked my gut biome and took a long while to dig out of.

Unfortunately that's just symptom control. I did the same for many years. Mine was so bad refried beans could give me a panic attack a couple days later. I am now eating beans twice a day after getting my bile less toxic. The more gas the more pain you have from them the worse toxicity you have.

Exactly.

 

[Peaterpeater]

I have found IBS is caused my "vitamin A" and/copper toxicity and all you have done is kicked the can down the road by suppressing and not addressing the root cause. I also found that when I removed soluble fiber for long time it wrecked my gut biome and took a long while to dig out of.

Exactly.

I’d really like to believe this….