Ray Peat and "Toxic Bile Theory". In What Way do These Philosophies Differ?

[dervmai]

I'm reading more about toxic bile theory and it makes sense. I have a couple questions regarding it though and how it compares with Ray Peat.

Looking at the diet of both diets and lifestyles, there are some noticeable differences, which leaves me confused as to which to follow. Ray puts emphasis on nutrient dense foods like liver, oysters, eggs, dairy, mushrooms etc.... The emphasis of his diet and lifestyle ideas and philosophies is to maximize energy production, and the central keystone to the way of living revolves around improving thyroid function.

Where as the "Toxic Bile Theory" diet revolves around eating and living in a way to minimize toxins and to facilitate liver detoxification. The liver processes everything that goes into your body, it performs a very extensive job, and both health philosophies agree that the environment is toxic, and the food supply is toxic, and this exposure to toxicity causes our organs to function sub-optimally, and over time, as the organs continue to get worse, and the overall toxin exposure and stress exposure go up over time with age, this causes us to degrade as organisms much quicker... leading to health problems at a young age, and even worse health problems as we continue to age.

(***DISCLAIMER***I am still new to the toxic bile theory so I don't understand it fully, and hence why I am writing this up, to voice my thoughts and to ask questions.)

The methods of solving health issues differ between these two ideologies. Ray focuses on optimizing the thyroid, minimizing toxin exposure and reducing stress. The idea is that thyroid is the keystone of our organ systems? A sub optimal thyroid causes liver issues, gut issues, kidney issues... etc... But the main emphasis is the thyroid. Whereas the TBT is putting emphasis on the liver. I've heard about the book by Broda Barnes being thrown around by Danny and others on this forum, "Hope for Hypoglycemia", but I have not read it so I don't understand the idea behind it much. If someone could chime in here and give a rough summary, that would be great. But Ray understood the importance of the liver, but he put emphasis on the thyroid. So what about in a situation where someone's liver is in bad shape... then what? The healing can't take place as effectively or as quickly... Could thyroid supplementation + a low vit A diet/TBT diet be the combo needed? Putting emphasis on both the liver and the thyroid at the same time.

The thing that is conflicting is that TBT says that the liver is storing too much toxins and vitamins and hormones etc.... since it's overworked and can't process hormones, vitamins etc... and so, it just stores it. Causing the liver to become worse, and we all know how important the liver is, and it's role in the gut, liver, thyroid trio. This would also mean, that it stores hormones such as thyroid, progesterone etc... and vitamins like vit A etc... TBT doesn't really advocate thyroid supplementation or things like progesterone supplementation.

Just wondering what other differences there are, and what type of diet and lifestyle would work better for my case... I think my main issue is the liver. As I had issues converting with thyroid hormone conversion and had high rt3 as a result. I also look back and at the time when my skin started turning a yellower tone, is when my health issues started happening. So the liver is really important for my case.

 

[Blossom]

I'm reading more about toxic bile theory and it makes sense. I have a couple questions regarding it though and how it compares with Ray Peat.

Looking at the diet of both diets and lifestyles, there are some noticeable differences, which leaves me confused as to which to follow. Ray puts emphasis on nutrient dense foods like liver, oysters, eggs, dairy, mushrooms etc.... The emphasis of his diet and lifestyle ideas and philosophies is to maximize energy production, and the central keystone to the way of living revolves around improving thyroid function.

Where as the "Toxic Bile Theory" diet revolves around eating and living in a way to minimize toxins and to facilitate liver detoxification. The liver processes everything that goes into your body, it performs a very extensive job, and both health philosophies agree that the environment is toxic, and the food supply is toxic, and this exposure to toxicity causes our organs to function sub-optimally, and over time, as the organs continue to get worse, and the overall toxin exposure and stress exposure go up over time with age, this causes us to degrade as organisms much quicker... leading to health problems at a young age, and even worse health problems as we continue to age.

(***DISCLAIMER***I am still new to the toxic bile theory so I don't understand it fully, and hence why I am writing this up, to voice my thoughts and to ask questions.)

The methods of solving health issues differ between these two ideologies. Ray focuses on optimizing the thyroid, minimizing toxin exposure and reducing stress. The idea is that thyroid is the keystone of our organ systems? A sub optimal thyroid causes liver issues, gut issues, kidney issues... etc... But the main emphasis is the thyroid. Whereas the TBT is putting emphasis on the liver. I've heard about the book by Broda Barnes being thrown around by Danny and others on this forum, "Hope for Hypoglycemia", but I have not read it so I don't understand the idea behind it much. If someone could chime in here and give a rough summary, that would be great. But Ray understood the importance of the liver, but he put emphasis on the thyroid. So what about in a situation where someone's liver is in bad shape... then what? The healing can't take place as effectively or as quickly... Could thyroid supplementation + a low vit A diet/TBT diet be the combo needed? Putting emphasis on both the liver and the thyroid at the same time.

The thing that is conflicting is that TBT says that the liver is storing too much toxins and vitamins and hormones etc.... since it's overworked and can't process hormones, vitamins etc... and so, it just stores it. Causing the liver to become worse, and we all know how important the liver is, and it's role in the gut, liver, thyroid trio. This would also mean, that it stores hormones such as thyroid, progesterone etc... and vitamins like vit A etc... TBT doesn't really advocate thyroid supplementation or things like progesterone supplementation.

Just wondering what other differences there are, and what type of diet and lifestyle would work better for my case... I think my main issue is the liver. As I had issues converting with thyroid hormone conversion and had high rt3 as a result. I also look back and at the time when my skin started turning a yellower tone, is when my health issues started happening. So the liver is really important for my case.

When I started eating low A in 2018 I continued to take thyroid. The idea is that as you detox your own thyroid function starts to improve and eventually many people no longer need it. According to people in the various groups this takes months to years. It was years for me personally but I was gradually able to reduce my thyroid supplements/meds. Please consider I was doing this while working a stressful job during covid so I was not perfect with it and have had a slow detox because I mainly ate muscle meat carnivore for the majority of that time. I’m sure more people will chime in here.

 

[marcar72]

Fiber is a big way the two WoE differ. It seems Ray Peat was paranoid about endotoxin to the extent that he cautioned against fiber in order to not feed the bad endotoxin producing bacteria. He did advocate the "raw carrot salad" and bamboo shoots as fiber sources but who's gonna eat that all the time if ever? Back in the day I did not buy into his fiber theory but the WoE inevitably lead to minimal fiber intake for me as I did not eat the "raw carrot salad" or bamboo shoots. I felt back then a person needs the fiber to bind up the toxin and eliminate it. Drinking a lot of milk did seem to work as a fiber replacement but milk got really boring and detrimental over time.

 

[dervmai]

When I started eating low A in 2018 I continued to take thyroid. The idea is that as you detox your own thyroid function starts to improve and eventually many people no longer need it. According to people in the various groups this takes months to years. It was years for me personally but I was gradually able to reduce my thyroid supplements/meds. Please consider I was doing this while working a stressful job during covid so I was not perfect with it and have had a slow detox because I mainly ate muscle meat carnivore for the majority of that time. I’m sure more people will chime in here.

So what about the idea that the liver can store too much of things like vit D, vit A, copper, iron etc.... I mean eating nutrient dense foods are important, especially if one is also taking thyroid, since the need for nutrients increases, how does one approach this issue? I believe these two ideologies can merge, and I actually think it's a good idea to merge them.

Do you reckon liver and oysters weekly or even like once or twice a month can be excessive? And since the liver is storing it, does that mean it's not reaching the places it should be going to, such as skin and hair? I imagine getting the liver to work properly prevents it from storing it and allows it to pass into the body and into the places where it is needed, this includes thyroid hormones.... Ray emphasized fixing the thyroid first, but is it actually more important to get the liver to start working first? If not, it is at least probably is equally as important right?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

If Ray lived cancer-free up to 86 eating a high VA diet for over 40 years, I think, you can't really call VA a toxin in the truest sense of the word.
It's mostly hypothyroid people who have issues with VA.
My theory is the a Low VA diet does remove some of the "toxin" load in the body, which makes people who were hypothyroid to begin with, to start feeling better. Essentially showing less obvious symptoms of hypothyroidism, while still remaining hypothyroid.
Until G. Smith shows up a TSH of 0.5 - 1 on his blood tests, I'm yet to be convinced.

 

[charlie]

If Ray lived cancer-free up to 86 eating a high VA diet for over 40 years, I think, you can't really call VA a toxin in the truest sense of the word.

How do you know if Ray Peat lived "cancer" free? He died a degenerative death that many of us saw coming a mile away.

My theory is the a Low VA diet does remove some of the "toxin" load in the body, which makes people who were hypothyroid to begin with, to start feeling better. Essentially showing less obvious symptoms of hypothyroidism, while still remaining hypothyroid.

 

[Apple]

If Ray lived cancer-free up to 86 eating a high VA diet for over 40 years, I think, you can't really call VA a toxin in the truest sense of the word.
It's mostly hypothyroid people who have issues with VA.
My theory is the a Low VA diet does remove some of the "toxin" load in the body, which makes people who were hypothyroid to begin with, to start feeling better. Essentially showing less obvious symptoms of hypothyroidism, while still remaining hypothyroid.
Until G. Smith shows up a TSH of 0.5 - 1 on his blood tests, I'm yet to be convinced.

Looks like Ray wasn't cancer free:
“…About 40 years ago, three different doctors diagnosed, told me that I should have a biopsy on three different things. And since I had already been studying what doctors do and know about cancer, I ignored them and increased my thyroid and used a little nutritional addition like extra vitamin A and folic acid. Methylation. Methylation. I put some progesterone and DHEA on the area. Vitamin D. And so far, that's 40 years ago, and none of them have persisted. Okay, but I have known very smart people who did all kinds of really good things and held”: RP

 

[charlie]

Looks like Ray wasn't cancer free:
“…About 40 years ago, three different doctors diagnosed, told me that I should have a biopsy on three different things. And since I had already been studying what doctors do and know about cancer, I ignored them and increased my thyroid and used a little nutritional addition like extra vitamin A and folic acid. Methylation. Methylation. I put some progesterone and DHEA on the area. Vitamin D. And so far, that's 40 years ago, and none of them have persisted. Okay, but I have known very smart people who did all kinds of really good things and held”: RP

So basically it looks like he suppressed the "cancer" and drove it deeper into the body.

 

[Peater]

Looks like Ray wasn't cancer free:
“…About 40 years ago, three different doctors diagnosed, told me that I should have a biopsy on three different things. And since I had already been studying what doctors do and know about cancer, I ignored them and increased my thyroid and used a little nutritional addition like extra vitamin A and folic acid. Methylation. Methylation. I put some progesterone and DHEA on the area. Vitamin D. And so far, that's 40 years ago, and none of them have persisted. Okay, but I have known very smart people who did all kinds of really good things and held”: RP

Did that lady think he meant Vitamin D when he was referring to DHEA?

 

[Blossom]

@dervmai, my thyroid seems to work fine now. It makes more sense to me to focus on fixing the liver while supporting the thyroid. Even Haidut talked about the importance of the liver in 2013 or 2014 long before this low a/toxin focus came to the forum.
As far as nutrients in general go I think it’s individual and I don’t mean that as a cop out. Good nutrition is certainly important but what I need versus someone else will be slightly or even dramatically different. I’ve had to really lean into perceive, think and act on this over the past 7 years. I checked my A levels in December of 2023 and they are still pretty high (47.4 with an upper limit reference range of 62) so going off that alone if I believed the RDI’s and mainstream perspective I’m doing just fine. I will repeat my labs in April to check my A, liver enzymes and do a thyroid panel for everyone to judge for themselves. I find it hard to imagine that any of us in the western world who grew up with things like fortified foods and multivitamins would actually ever need to worry about getting enough A though at this point. I had numerous b vitamin deficiencies from my past history so I’ve been working on correcting those and getting the proper minerals but it’s definitely not always a one size fits all approach. We all certainly need adequate protein and carbs but even this varies by the individual. I’ve been blending the aspects of Peat and Low a/toxin that work for me for the past 5.5 years but I don’t think it’s possible for me to make a blanket statement and say which parts of either approach will work for everyone. I definitely think people would benefit from testing and tracking. I’ve got to cut this short atm but I’ll come back later with additional thoughts. Have a great day!

 

[dervmai]

If Ray lived cancer-free up to 86 eating a high VA diet for over 40 years, I think, you can't really call VA a toxin in the truest sense of the word.
It's mostly hypothyroid people who have issues with VA.
My theory is the a Low VA diet does remove some of the "toxin" load in the body, which makes people who were hypothyroid to begin with, to start feeling better. Essentially showing less obvious symptoms of hypothyroidism, while still remaining hypothyroid.
Until G. Smith shows up a TSH of 0.5 - 1 on his blood tests, I'm yet to be convinced.

So isn't going on a low VA diet + thyroid supplementation optimal? Remove the toxic load while getting the metabolism up?

 

[charlie]

So isn't going on a low VA diet + thyroid supplementation optimal? Remove the toxic load while getting the metabolism up?

Yes, exactly. And then at one point thyroid supplementation will not been needed anymore once the liver gets cleared out.

 

[dervmai]

@dervmai, my thyroid seems to work fine now. It makes more sense to me to focus on fixing the liver while supporting the thyroid. Even Haidut talked about the importance of the liver in 2013 or 2014 long before this low a/toxin focus came to the forum.
As far as nutrients in general go I think it’s individual and I don’t mean that as a cop out. Good nutrition is certainly important but what I need versus someone else will be slightly or even dramatically different. I’ve had to really lean into perceive, think and act on this over the past 7 years. I checked my A levels in December of 2023 and they are still pretty high (47.4 with an upper limit reference range of 62) so going off that alone if I believed the RDI’s and mainstream perspective I’m doing just fine. I will repeat my labs in April to check my A, liver enzymes and do a thyroid panel for everyone to judge for themselves. I find it hard to imagine that any of us in the western world who grew up with things like fortified foods and multivitamins would actually ever need to worry about getting enough A though at this point. I had numerous b vitamin deficiencies from my past history so I’ve been working on correcting those and getting the proper minerals but it’s definitely not always a one size fits all approach. We all certainly need adequate protein and carbs but even this varies by the individual. I’ve been blending the aspects of Peat and Low a/toxin that work for me for the past 5.5 years but I don’t think it’s possible for me to make a blanket statement and say which parts of either approach will work for everyone. I definitely think people would benefit from testing and tracking. I’ve got to cut this short atm but I’ll come back later with additional thoughts. Have a great day!

I see. It seems to me then that figuring out your personal nutritional deficiencies are also paramount, as nutrient deficiencies can cause many issues.

One of the issues with trying to "Perceive, Think, Act" is that like other's have said in the forum... blood tests are unreliable, you can't really figure out deficiencies through the blood, can you? If the liver stores all these toxins and vitamins instead of pushing it out to the blood and tissue, that means your technically toxic while also being deficient in the vitamin... since it's being stored in the liver, while not being sent to the rest of the body where it is needed. How does one overcome the technical problem shooting regarding blood tests and other tests to figure out your nutritional status, while also approaching the issue of being both vitamin toxic and deficient?

Is the approach this? - You want the focus to be getting metabolism up, while removing the toxins, and approaching getting all your vitamin intakes should be taken slower? It seems there is a fine line of optimal nutrition, you don't want to intake sooo many vitamins while your liver is in bad shape right? You still want to eat nutrient dense foods, while not overdoing it with like liver and oysters weekly. Because things like iron toxicity, zinc toxicity, copper toxicity are problematic...

Another question I had was in regards to other vitamins that are needed, that aren't as easy to become toxic in, like the b vitamins. Should a person with a sluggish liver instead focus on getting more b vitamins, and maybe things like magnesium instead of the metals like iron, copper etc.... I'm not sure if those are easier for the liver to process, and so, avoiding it isn't necessary, meaning you can eat your b vitamins plentifully without worrying about storing it.

 

[charlie]

I see. It seems to me then that figuring out your personal nutritional deficiencies are also paramount, as nutrient deficiencies can cause many issues.

One of the issues with trying to "Perceive, Think, Act" is that like other's have said in the forum... blood tests are unreliable, you can't really figure out deficiencies through the blood, can you? If the liver stores all these toxins and vitamins instead of pushing it out to the blood and tissue, that means your technically toxic while also being deficient in the vitamin... since it's being stored in the liver, while not being sent to the rest of the body where it is needed. How does one overcome the technical problem shooting regarding blood tests and other tests to figure out your nutritional status, while also approaching the issue of being both vitamin toxic and deficient?

Is the approach this? - You want the focus to be getting metabolism up, while removing the toxins, and approaching getting all your vitamin intakes should be taken slower? It seems there is a fine line of optimal nutrition, you don't want to intake sooo many vitamins while your liver is in bad shape right? You still want to eat nutrient dense foods, while not overdoing it with like liver and oysters weekly. Because things like iron toxicity, zinc toxicity, copper toxicity are problematic...

Another question I had was in regards to other vitamins that are needed, that aren't as easy to become toxic in, like the b vitamins. Should a person with a sluggish liver instead focus on getting more b vitamins, and maybe things like magnesium instead of the metals like iron, copper etc.... I'm not sure if those are easier for the liver to process, and so, avoiding it isn't necessary, meaning you can eat your b vitamins plentifully without worrying about storing it.

Here is your answer, except he left off Niacin so you can add Nicotinic Acid to the list:


View: https://x.com/NutriDetect/status/1590158513074221056?s=20

 

[dervmai]

Here is your answer, except he left off Niacin so you can add Nicotinic Acid to the list:


View: https://x.com/NutriDetect/status/1590158513074221056?s=20

Thank you for that.

Would issues like allergies, and skin dermatitis issues like seborrheic dermatitis be explained and possibly resolved through this dietary approach, in your opinion. I know you've had skin dermatitis issues in the past.

 

[charlie]

Thank you for that.

Would issues like allergies, and skin dermatitis issues like seborrheic dermatitis be explained and possibly resolved through this dietary approach, in your opinion. I know you've had skin dermatitis issues in the past.

Absolutely, all of that goes away.

 

[Blossom]

One of the issues with trying to "Perceive, Think, Act" is that like other's have said in the forum... blood tests are unreliable, you can't really figure out deficiencies through the blood, can you?

I’ve been doing a combination of perceiving and thinking and acting by testing and tracking as much as I can afford. Both Dr. Peat’s emphasis on following our inner guidance and Dr. Smith’s emphasis on ‘Testing not guessing’ have influenced my approach over the years.

I’ve also heard that testing for nutrient levels isn’t always reliable and I haven’t personally tested for any nutrient deficiencies. I did run my dna raw data though a nutrigenomics panel which helped me pinpoint some nutrients that I likely need to focus on and that has been very helpful. I don’t think this is necessary for everyone and I don’t think people who don’t have their genetic raw data already should necessarily do any dna testing. I just had an old one so I decided to utilize the information. This has nothing to do with Peat, Smith or the low toxin approach rather it’s just something I did for my personal health optimization.

Dr. Smith’s recommendations that charlie posted do seem to be the best place to start for most people unless they just prefer the starting with Grant’s more simplistic original approach of just beef/bison and rice. I’ve found implementing Garrett’s suggestions definitely speeds things along but I have a poor detox capacity. When I first learned of Grant’s work in 2018 he hadn’t added beans yet so I started with just red meat and rice.

I also do basic blood tests regularly like cbc, bmp and other markers that apply to my situation so that’s part of how I’ve individualized things for myself. I’ve also been tracking my body composition, activity, sleep and stress and I took a couple classes to help me get off the mainly muscle meat carnivore diet by tweaking my macros and tracking my blood glucose.

It does seem true to me that as the toxic burden is reduced the body utilizes nutrients more effectively and most things start to fall into place.

Here’s a couple of pictures. The first one is when I was at my lowest point and about 8 months before I accidentally went low A before learning about Grant’s work. The second one is this morning. Excuse me, I was a mess after my work out. I also wasn’t planning on showing it to anyone!!! I still have goals and even though it’s been a long road I’m happy with my progress and I’m never giving up. Keep in mind I’m not young-I’ll be 55 this year.

 

[Peater]

Liking your work @Blossom

 

[youngsinatra]

I think thyroid + liver detox works well together.

That’s what I am doing.

 

[youngsinatra]

I pushed thyroid supplementation hard a few months back and made me slightly hyperthyroid on purpose to see how I feel. Because I thought that vA toxicity was just low thyroid. But that amount of T3 caused issues like sleep disturbances (couldn’t sleep longer than 6h), heart palpitations (but HR never above 90 bpm) and irregular heart beats, low-moderate anxiety, nerve tingling, mild dizziness and my liver function still wasn’t great. It tanked my potassium (very well known effect of T3) and I had a hard time keeping it up.

I then cut the thyroid dose in half. Doing better. I need some, but not much. Regardless of thyroid dose I still had sluggish liver function. I need other things that improve bile flow like niacin, B1, B5, methylation support and so on.