Revelation 11 as the timing of the catching away/rapture

[Twohandsondeck]

I'm currently under the impression that the "last trump" of the catching away (commonly called the rapture) is written of in Revelation chapter 11.

*Revelation 11:15 is paired with 1 Corinthians 15:52.

*The fulness of the Gentiles are them treading the holy city underfoot for 42 months (first half of tribulation, 3.5 years, perhaps when it is the man of sin as the antichrist and he is not yet made alive again as the son of perdition). This is Revelation 11:2 paired with Romans 11:25.

*The two prophets of God that are slain by the beast which arises from the bottomless pit exist for the remaining unbelieving world to yet believe on Christ before the second half of Daniel's 70th week comes to pass.

*The remnant of Revelation 11:13 pairs with 1 Thessalonians 4:17, "alive and remain"

*Revelation 11:12 pairs with 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and being caught up.

*The reward to servants in Revelation 11:18 may pair with the judgement seat of Christ of 1 Corinthians 3:13-14.

*Revelation 11:18 matches the victorious tone of what is written in 1 Corinthians 15:53-55.
"...because thou hast taken to thee thy great power," and
"...Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

*In Revelation 11:19, the temple of God is opened in heaven, perhaps indicating the joining of all of the saints which were both caught up and previously asleep.

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*The seven angels are given seven trumpets:

Revelation 8:2
[2] And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
...
The entirety of Revelation chapter 11:

Revelation 11:1-19
[1] And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
[5] And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[6] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
[7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[9] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
[10] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
[13] And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
[14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
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Paired verses mentioned above:

1 Corinthians 15:52-55
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53-55
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Romans 11:25
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 3:13-14
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

__________________

My flesh which wants comfort is bothered with these thoughts, but my soul is yet more settled on a foundation.

Opinions and reputations welcome. Come one, come all.

 

[Twohandsondeck]

Refutations*

 

[Perry Staltic]

In the days of the voice of the 7th angel the mystery of God is complete. The mystery of God is his temple made up of all believers in Christ. The fullness of the gentiles and the completion of the temple of God are the same.

Once the temple is complete the 7th trumpet sounds to mark the 1st resurrection of dead believers, the seizing of living believers into Christ's presence (what dispensationalists call the rapture) and the wrath of God poured out on the disbelieving world. Stated another way, the temple in heaven is opened and Christ appears to the world, which means the salvation of his sanctified people (we will live because we will see him as he is) and the complete destruction of the world (no unsanctified human can see the holy God and live), which at this point is already in bad shape because of the prior 6 trumpets and witness of his 2 prophets.

 

[Blaze]

Refutations*

In matters like these I sometimes out of respect hesitate to respond but since you requested feedback / refutations:

While I can certainly appreciate the effort you put into this, It's just unfruitful speculation. You are not the first to do a deep dive and go down this theological rabbit hole. Many great inspirational figures throughout church history have made themselves look rather foolish trying to divine the dates of the second coming and the end times. Completely unknowable, Studying and the ability to learn is a wonderful gift to possess, but even the biblical text itself is very bold in stating that no one can ever know these things and to be always ready. It will come when least expected like a thief in the night. My advice would be to just draw near to God on a day by day basis and be ready to lean on him for whatever adversity comes your way. Kind of like the sentiment echoed in that song from Godspell in the 70's





View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekoHxB4idmg

 

[Perry Staltic]

Studying and the ability to learn is a wonderful gift to possess, but even the biblical text itself is very bold in stating that no one can ever know these things and to be always ready. It will come when least expected like a thief in the night.

It says no man will know the day or the hour, but doesn't go beyond that to say week, month or year. I assure you that, at a minimum, the 2 witnesses will know that. That day only comes as a thief in the night to those who are not watching.

 

[Blaze]

It says no man will know the day or the hour, but doesn't go beyond that to say week, month or year. I assure you that, at a minimum, the 2 witnesses will know that. That day only comes as a thief in the night to those who are not watching.

Again, with my goal of never seeking to offend others, this is why I hesitate to respond, as it degenerates and becomes semantics rather quickly. So, you agree we cannot know the day or hour, so we will extend it out and say somewhere in this gravitationally produced timeline, we can be assured of a certainty of knowing it will eventually happen. Thusly, since we are prohibited from knowing the day or hour, we have got to tailor our educated guesses to the week or month or year or century, pick your parameter.
Unfruitful, damaging, and I can think of few other such profoundly embarrassing examples of people who have destroyed their witness / credibility throughout history by making claims in this area.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Unfruitful, and I can think of few other such profoundly embarrassing examples of people who have destroyed their witness / credibility throughout history by making claims in this area.

Such people need to be embarrassed because it wasn't revealed to them and they spoke presumptuously. That's a totally different issue than saying no one will know. Anyone with faith who sees the dead 2 witnesses will know the resurrection is imminent. So that by itself undoes the premise that no one will know. Jesus said that no one knew at that time he was speaking, not even himself. He wasn't speaking about the future. There are many clues as to when that time will be, and as they converge it will become clearer.

 

[Blaze]

Such people need to be embarrassed because it wasn't revealed to them and they spoke presumptuously. That's a totally different issue than saying no one will know. Anyone with faith who sees the dead 2 witnesses will know the resurrection is imminent. So that by itself undoes the premise that no one will know. Jesus said that no one knew at that time he was speaking, not even himself. He wasn't speaking about the future. There are many clues as to when that time will be, and as they converge it will become clearer.

Well then, you believe it is possible to know and I guess I do not. Faith is different than proof............. people get lost trying to reinforce their faith with triangulating corresponding scripture verses and proving or knowing things instead of being satisfied faith is enough. Perhaps God inspired you and Twohandsondeck to feel a strong motivation to look for proof and obtain deeper understanding than most are blessed with , so you can teach others.

I guess one of the most interesting human qualities is our relentless reaching for and trying to understand what seems impossible to grasp. We have a built in desire to strive for and to understand everything.

Wishing you and him sincere blessings in that effort.

 

[Twohandsondeck]

The origination of this thread has nothing to do with knowing the day, time, hour, or even season of the catching away.

It's simply an attempt at correlating scriptures.

This could be comparable to people using scriptures of the Old Testament to prove that Jesus had arrived as the Christ during His earthly ministry.

 

[Blaze]

The origination of this thread has nothing to do with knowing the day, time, hour, or even season of the catching away.

It's simply an attempt at correlating scriptures.

This could be comparable to people using scriptures of the Old Testament to prove that Jesus had arrived as the Christ during His earthly ministry.

Got it, then I guess your thread title "Revelation 11 as the timing of the catching away/rapture" is what threw me off from what you really wanted to impart.
Though, it's hard to talk about the "timing" or end "times" and the "timing" of the rapture and separate the resulting discussion from the whole "time" thing , since throughout history it has been the most common denominator that that discussion was almost always about predicting the exact time even if you yourself were not intending to.

I guess I missed the mark and went off on a different tangent than you intended.

 

[Twohandsondeck]

Got it, then I guess your thread title "Revelation 11 as the timing of the catching away/rapture" is what threw me off from what you really wanted to impart.
Though, it's hard to talk about the "timing" or end "times" and the "timing" of the rapture and separate the resulting discussion from the whole "time" thing , since throughout history it has been the most common denominator that that discussion was almost always about predicting the exact time even if you yourself were not intending to.

I guess I missed the mark and went off on a different tangent than you intended.

I completely understand what you mean. No frets!

 

[Blaze]

I completely understand what you mean. No frets!

Thank you brother.

 

[ThinPicking]

In matters like these I sometimes out of respect hesitate to respond but since you requested feedback / refutations:

While I can certainly appreciate the effort you put into this, It's just unfruitful speculation. You are not the first to do a deep dive and go down this theological rabbit hole. Many great inspirational figures throughout church history have made themselves look rather foolish trying to divine the dates of the second coming and the end times. Completely unknowable, Studying and the ability to learn is a wonderful gift to possess, but even the biblical text itself is very bold in stating that no one can ever know these things and to be always ready. It will come when least expected like a thief in the night. My advice would be to just draw near to God on a day by day basis and be ready to lean on him for whatever adversity comes your way. Kind of like the sentiment echoed in that song from Godspell in the 70's





View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekoHxB4idmg

I can't endorse my interpretation of your sentiment here enough. These theological debates are a bottomless pit. Have faith and move on while you keep it would be my attitude.

 

[lionel]

This imo is is a dangerous self-fulfilling prophecy work of fiction. I gave my opinion here as to why I think that FAMILIARIZE YOURSELF with the Book of Revelations, "END TIMES" - EVERY PROPHECY MUST be FULFILLED
I just don't want to paste it everywhere

 

[LadyRae]

The non-denominational Christian church I grew up in was always convinced the second coming was imminent... And that they would definitely be raptured. They also wouldn't allow me to wear denim (until I started sneaking jeans to high school, 1995, to change in the bathroom, finally my mother relented) .

So. SUS

 

[Ras]

View: https://youtu.be/DnBjyzohOVg

 

[TeslaFan]

The origination of this thread has nothing to do with knowing the day, time, hour, or even season of the catching away.

It's simply an attempt at correlating scriptures.

This could be comparable to people using scriptures of the Old Testament to prove that Jesus had arrived as the Christ during His earthly ministry.

Jesus rebuked Jerusalem for not knowing the "hour of its visitation". They were supposed to know then, and not after (which Matthew did a lot of in his gospel, as a second chance). Book of Daniel told them when Messiah is coming ahead of time.

 

[Twohandsondeck]

Jesus rebuked Jerusalem for not knowing the "hour of its visitation". They were supposed to know then, and not after (which Matthew did a lot of in his gospel, as a second chance). Book of Daniel told them when Messiah is coming ahead of time.

That's a fair point.

 

[S.Holmes]

I don't want to offend anyone, but after years of searching, studying, and praying, the obvious conclusion (imo) is that Christians are reading someone else's mail. The NT LETTERS were not written to or about us. Even The Revelation was written to the early Christians regarding events that were IMMINENT. Why else would John have been instructed to write in code/symbols. "Let the reader understand." The guards thought they were delivering the rantings of a madman, but the believers were able to decipher his code and fled Jerusalem before the "judgment." It's a fascinating discovery and history confirms this. It can all be proven with a little due diligence.

 

[Perry Staltic]

The Revelation was written to the early Christians regarding events that were IMMINENT. Why else would John have been instructed to write in code/symbols

1) There is absolutely no way John could have understood the realities we live in and consequently write about them, so symbolic and figurative language was necessary, like many of the OT prophecies were written in
2) To keep the carnally-minded from understanding it

The glory of GOD is to conceal a thing, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter. Proverbs 25:2