Slippery Slope SUPPLEMENTS

[Rinse & rePeat]

@Dave Clark posted this interesting bit in the thread linked below…

“I have been off oral D supplements for several years. If anything, I am doing better. From my research and understanding, I believe that your body stores a good supply of hormone D in adipose tissue {that's how we get through the winter in cold climate areas without sun exposure, and a natural diet does not have much D in in, but maybe enough to trickle-charge our stores}. So, the Sperti-d lamp does not have to be used daily, and some would argue not at all in the winter, if you had good sun exposure during the summer. I use it maybe 2 or 3 times/week in the winter, just to keep the D levels replete, in case they are not {the storage D test, 25OH is a faulty test to determine accurate d levels, like testing for any fat-storing hormone, like estrogen. Blood levels don't tell you how much is available in the fat tissues}. The other factor, that you can read about on the group I mentioned, as well as elsewhere, is that the benefits of production of cholesterol sulfate from sun exposure, which can't be had by oral dosing. Also, it is talked about on the group that even if you have enough D in your system, if your VDRs {vitamin D receptors} are blocked, you will not be getting proper usage of that D. Things like EBV and other viruses, bacteria, etc. can block these receptors. They recommend consuming the herb rosemary, which has been shown to unblock the receptors. plus it is a beneficial herb anyway to use, it clears the liver of estrogen and is a potent antioxidant, etc. If you do not like the taste of rosemary, you can get it in capsule form on-line, but it worked out well for me because it has been my favorite herb for years, and I grow my own to use.
I think the benefit, if any of using oral D is to suppress the immune system, which is why it works for auto-immune and other conditions of an overactive immune response, and why it works for hives and other similar conditions. However, you have to ask yourself, do you want you immune system to be suppressed on a continual basis.”

Is Vitamin D Supplementation Even Neccessary

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O9tfw9cAjIw

raypeatforum.com

 

[Gawdawg]

"When a person uses a drug, there is generally an awareness that the benefit has to be weighed against the side effects. But if something is treated as a “nutrient,” especially an “essential nutrient,” there is an implication that it won't produce undesirable side effects." -Ray Peat


I have always taken an interest in vitamins and herbs, starting in my teens. My mom had apothecary jars lined up across the kitchen counter, with various loose leaves, and books too that told of the miracles they could do. I would read about foods and the different vitamins and minerals that they had in them and would set out to eat two bites of "this" and three bites of "that" to make sure I got everything I needed and more. I use to envision my body as parts that had minds of their own, with feelings and temper tantrums. When I ate that two bites of cottage cheese, I pictured a mouth wide open at the end of the chute ready to catch it. After all the mouths were fed with the kidneys happy and the liver happy and the rest, I felt good moving on to my school homework. My only dabbling in vitamin suppliments was my mom telling me to try a niacin tablet, and the flush that came soon after was nearly unbearable! Yeah that was really funny mom. She got out of any criticisms by telling me how much good that "flush" was doing me. I did it a few more times , with more discomfort, and eventually the flush became less and less.

So in my adulthood I continued my vitamins, and of course in my 20's finding them as cheap as possible was the goal, after all a vitamin is a vitamin and those chewables and gummies made them a positive experience. ALL through my twenties I wasn't well. I had a lot of stomach problems and vomiting was a weekly occurrence. I lost a lot of weight, with much talk behind my back accusing me of having anorexia or bulimia. Those were frustrating times because I cooked gourmet meals and ate as much as anyone else, and of course got a lot of extra nutrients from vitamins.

After I had children it was more of the same. I discovered the miracles of bee pollen and never suffered menstrual cramps again. Then came "The Miracles Of MSM" (that is actually the title of the little book I read). MSM really was a miracle, reversing my wrinkles and it helped many friends and family with arthritis and other chronic pains. Finally I came upon a time when I could feel something brewing deep within. I had a deep itch on my collar bone that I could not get to, until one day I used one of my suppliments and my collar bone body broke out into an unbearable deep rash. I struhgled with that rash for months, being careful not to move too much snd keep ice packs and anti-histamines around to get through each day. I finally matched the name to my ailament, "Histamine Intolerance". I continued to use my supplements and everytime I did my symptoms got worse and worse, with now new symptoms like extreme puffy eyes, nonstop vomiting with any notice of nausea, insomnia, and a trickle of many other symptoms. Now I found myself taking suppliments out one at a time, and saw my symptoms get less and less, hanging on to only one for awhile, nettle. The final act was a horrible arm rash that would come on within minutes of ingesting any flouride, and the miserable rash would last for days. A gravity water filter finally resolved that rash and my health finally got to the other end of the tunnel.

Nowadays when I see a suppliment and know the quick fix I can get from it with better "this" or better "that", i resist the temptation and eat my beef liver or squeeze and strain some oranges. I don't ingest ANY suppliments anymore and i have ZERO health issues at 58. It took some time to let each of my "supposed" friends go, but I have learned through it all that with 'friends" quantity isn't as important as the quality.

I've been working in the natural products industry for over 20 years peddling pills. In late 2022 I was introduced to Dr. Ray Peat and since listening to him and reading his material, all of my tables have been turned over regarding supplements. Not 100% opposed to them. Sometimes they can be used in emergencies. There was a time I was using 20-25 different supplements. I know people who use over 70 different products almost every day. I'm down to using a few topical ones made by Idealabs. My focus is more on food now.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“If you want to reap the benefits of vitamin D-packed mushrooms, here's what to do. First, you'll want to clean them since the sunlight will help them dry more quickly than they would inside. Then, per the Nutrients study, slice them to increase the surface area that can absorb the essential vitamin. Spread your slices out in a single layer on a baking sheet or any kind of flat tray and place them outside in the sun between 10 a.m. and 4 p.m., when the sun's rays are the strongest. During this time, a chemical in your 'shrooms called ergosterol will react with UV rays to generate and soak in even more vitamin D.

Try to leave your fungi out in the sun for an hour to maximize nutritional value, but as the study demonstrated, even a quarter hour of exposure can make a huge difference. Keep in mind that the amount of UV rays your mushrooms absorb can vary depending on the season, weather, and time of day -- although, as a study published in the Journal of Nutrition & Food Sciences noted, the sun-soaking fungi can still produce more vitamin D on cloudy days. As long as they have a little time out in nature, they'll help you stay out of the sun and meet your nutritional needs.“

Why You Should Let Mushrooms Sit In The Sun Before Cooking Them

Save yourself the cost and trouble of picking up supplement bottles and let your mushrooms soak in the sun for a boost of vitamin D. See what to do.

ca.news.yahoo.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I've been working in the natural products industry for over 20 years peddling pills. In late 2022 I was introduced to Dr. Ray Peat and since listening to him and reading his material, all of my tables have been turned over regarding supplements. Not 100% opposed to them. Sometimes they can be used in emergencies. There was a time I was using 20-25 different supplements. I know people who use over 70 different products almost every day. I'm down to using a few topical ones made by Idealabs. My focus is more on food now.

What a testimonial! This sounds akin to the Biblical Saul flipping to Paul. I assume you are still in the industry? If so do you then warn the buyers about the dangers they may face, I mean what a good position to be in to guide people better, but also a sticky situation to be in. Using seventy products sounds like a full time job!

 

[Gawdawg]

What a testimonial! This sounds akin to the Biblical Saul flipping to Paul. I assume you are still in the industry? If so do you then warn the buyers about the dangers they may face, I mean what a good position to be in to guide people better, but also a sticky situation to be in. Using seventy products sounds like a full time job!

Yep I still work in the industry. It's a job now. Before it was a passion. I do not make any warnings to people because that could cost me my job. I do insert info in stealth mode. I'm not ready to move on to something else.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Yep I still work in the industry. It's a job now. Before it was a passion. I do not make any warnings to people because that could cost me my job. I do insert info in stealth mode. I'm not ready to move on to something else.

That is a good way of looking at it. One could be selling books, it doesn’t mean that they read them..

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“All silicon dioxide on the market is likely toxic. Even when it is listed as non-nano. The reason is that it just uses aggregates of nano particles that in the body are going back to their nano form:”

Some studies that warn about silicion dioxide/silica

@Hans I saw that you sometimes recommend supplements with silicon dioxide (sometimes called silica) in it. Here are some studies that explain why that is a bad idea. All silicon dioxide on the market is likely toxic. Even when it is listed as non-nano. The reason is that it just uses aggregates...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“Although K1 is likely to stay with the liver and pay most homage to the blood clotting benefits, K2 will end back into the bloodstream to carry out its work on bone health and calcium build-up prevention due to its longer side-chains.”

Know the Difference Between Vitamin K and Vitamin K2 and It's Benefits

What is Vitamin K1? Is Vitamin K2 Better? In this article we compare difference between vitamin k and vitamin k2. Vitamin K1 often gets grouped in with K2, but there are distinct differences you need to be mindful of as you study how to use them.

agnroots.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“Vitamin K2 is mostly microbial. The food source can differ based on the subtype. Below is a table to summarize:

Vitamin K2 Subtype	Food Sources Containing Vitamin K2
MK-4	Sauerkraut, Natto (fermented beans), Cheese (hard & soft), eggs, whole milk
MK-5	Sauerkraut, Natto (fermented beans), Cheese (edam, curd cheese), whole milk
MK-7	Sauerkraut, Natto (fermented beans), Cheese - Blue cheese, Cheddar, Leicester, Butter Milk
MK-8	Sauerkraut, Natto (fermented beans), Cheese - Blue cheese, Caerphilly, Cheddar, Leicester, Cheshire, Butter Milk
MK-9	Sauerkraut, Natto (fermented beans), Cheese - Blue cheese, Caerphilly, Cheddar, Leicester, Cheshire, Appenzeller, Comte, Emmental, Jarlsberg, Raclette, Butter Milk
MK-10	Cheese - Blue cheese, Cheddar, Leicester, Cheshire, Edam, Emmental
MK-11	Full fat dairy products

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“High doses of Calcium, Zinc or Magnesium​

As noted above with the Iron and Calcium combo above, Calcium will compete for absorption with other minerals. Since Calcium can affect how your body absorbs Iron, it can also affect the absorption of Zinc and Magnesium, too.”

“If you’re taking a Zinc supplement, don’t take it at the same time as Copper, Iron, or Phosphorus supplements.”

https://www.naturemade.com/blogs/health-articles/what-vitamins-shouldn-t-be-taken-together#:~:text=If%20you're%20taking%20a,reduce%20absorption%20of%20each%20other.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“Yes, vitamin A and estrogen are antagonistic, and while estrogen promotes keratinization (shedding of skin cells), vitamin A opposes it. Since vitamin A is highly unsaturated, in excess it suppresses the thyroid, so it has to be balanced with the thyroid; the combination is effective for increasing progesterone and decreasing estrogen, slowing the turnover of skin cells, and making the skin cells function longer before flaking off. Plugged pores, combined with a local shift toward synthesizing inflammatory substances, foster bacterial infection. Bright light stimulates the production of steroids, and consumes vitamin A very quickly, but when the balance is right, the acne clears up in just a day or two. Cream, butter, eggs, and liver are good sources of vitamin A. When people supplement thyroid and eat liver once or twice a week, their acne and dandruff (and many other problems) usually clear up very quickly. It was acne and dandruff that led me into studying the steroids and thyroid, and in the process I found that they were related to constipation and food sensitivity.” -Ray Peat e-mail exchange

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“Since most people get some vitamin K from intestinal bacteria, it's important to eat liver or to take a K supplement if you use antibiotics for a long time.” -Ray Peat e-mail exchange

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“Taking zinc orally, 5 or 10 mg, can replenish the body's stores in a few days, but the supplement can oxidize other nutrients in the stomach or intestine, so it isn't good to use it for a long time.” -Ray Peat e-mail exchange

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“During the winter for a couple of months 10,000 units of D should be safe, but it's better to increase calcium and vitamin K, keeping the vitamin D a little lower unless you have the blood level checked occasionally.” -Ray Peat e-mail exchange

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“Supplements are the most common cause of vitamin A toxicity. It tends not to occur just from eating vitamin A-rich foods.
Too much vitamin A can make you sick. Taking large doses during pregnancy can cause birth defects.

• Acute vitamin A poisoning occurs quickly. It can happen when an adult takes several hundred thousand international units (IUs) of vitamin A.
• Chronic vitamin A poisoning may occur over time in adults who regularly take more than 25,000 IU a day.
• Babies and children are more sensitive to vitamin A. They can become sick after taking smaller doses of it. Swallowing products that contain vitamin A, such as skin cream with retinol in it, can also cause vitamin A poisoning.

Symptoms​

Symptoms may include:

• Abnormal softening of the skull bone (in infants and children)
• Blurred vision
• Bone pain or swelling
• Bulging of the soft spot in an infant's skull (fontanelle)
• Changes in alertness or consciousness
• Decreased appetite
• Dizziness
• Double vision (in young children)
• Drowsiness
• Hair changes, such as hair loss and oily hair
• Headache
• Irritability
• Liver damage
• Nausea and vomiting
• Poor weight gain (in infants and children)
• Skin changes, such as cracking at corners of the mouth, higher sensitivity to sunlight, oily skin, peeling, itching, and yellow color to the skin
• Vision changes

Exams and Tests​

These tests may be done if a high vitamin A level is suspected:

• Bone x-rays
• Blood calcium test
• Cholesterol test
• Liver function test
• Blood test to check vitamin Alevel
• Blood test to check other vitamin levels”

Hypervitaminosis A Information | Mount Sinai - New York

Learn about Hypervitaminosis A, find a doctor, complications, outcomes, recovery and follow-up care for Hypervitaminosis A.

www.mountsinai.org

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“When it comes to nutrients that get attention for their role in healthy thyroid function you would think iodine and selenium were the only players in town. With iodine being a key constituent of thyroxine (T4) and tri-iodothyronine (T3) and selenium being a required cofactor for the de-iodinase enzyme that converts T4 into the more potent T3 there’s no denying the crucial role of these minerals in the production of thyroid hormones. But there’s another nutrient that’s important for a healthy thyroid. It’s time to bring vitamin A out of the shadows.

The mentioning of vitamin A immediately brings to mind its key role in eye health. Basic grade school health textbooks typically point to night blindness as a sign of vitamin A deficiency. Vitamin A is also a major player in the immune and reproductive systems and there’s a role for vitamin A in thyroid function as well.

Vitamin A is required for activation of thyroid hormone receptors and insufficient vitamin A may depress thyroid function. Animal models have shown that vitamin A deficiency interferes with thyroid health starting further upstream in the pituitary gland. Vitamin A insufficiency increases pituitary synthesis and secretion of thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) increases the size of the thyroid gland and reduces uptake of iodine by the thyroid gland.

Vitamin A given alone even in the absence of increased iodine has demonstrated a positive impact on thyroid function and gland size. Vitamin A supplementation was shown to reduce serum TSH levels and increase T3 in premenopausal women (ages 17-50) including a cohort of obese women who are at increased risk for subclinical hypothyroidism. Among children with goiter living in areas where iodine deficiency disorders are prevalent the greater the severity of vitamin A deficiency the greater their thyroid gland volume and the higher their TSH levels. Compared to placebo supplemental vitamin A significantly reduced median TSH and the rate of goiter. In rats with concurrent deficiencies in both iodine and vitamin A vitamin A repletion alone was effective in reducing thyroid gland size and hyperstimulation.

However clinicians should not assume that all hypothyroid patients should increase their intake of vitamin A-rich foods or take supplements. It appears that high doses of vitamin A may actually decrease thyroid function. Hyperthyroid patients have been successfully treated with high doses of vitamin A resulting in decreased symptoms of an overactive thyroid and a decreased metabolic rate. It appears that the effect of vitamin A on thyroid function is a U-shaped curve; too little causes problems but too much can also be harmful depending on the individual patient’s pituitary and thyroid status.Perhaps the underappreciated role of vitamin A in thyroid function is a contributing factor as to why thyroid dysfunction is so difficult to treat. It’s rare that the thyroid gland itself is malfunctioning. A sluggish thyroid more often results from long-term chronic stress via feedback from the adrenals pituitary and hypothalamus. But in patients for whom this is not an issue stealth nutrient insufficiencies could be at play. Even among patients who consume a whole-foods diet and avoid processed foods it’s not impossible to be low in iodine and selenium particularly if they avoid iodized salt and don’t consume dairy shellfish or seaweed.”

Vitamin A: Underappreciated Role in Thyroid Health

www.casi.org

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

This term “U-shape association” really caught my attention this morning and makes more sense of the vitamin D and vitamin A debates. It is exactly to Ray Peat’s point about using supplements, in that they can be helpful with a health issue, but to stop taking them when the issue is resolved, or the supplement can go in the opposite direction. I think of most people, healthy or sick, who just randomly take a multi-vitamin hoping for something out of it, and wonder how many well-intended healthy people create their own health issues with these non-magical pills. For the sick ones it is like them standing there with their mouth open while a cup of food is thrown at their face, hoping to get fed. Sure something is going to land in their mouth, but now there is a mess to clean up. Like taking antibiotics or or medications a person needs to know what they are doing and a lot about the biology of the human body to be successful taking vitamins. I know more than most people about health matters and the human body, but I would be fearful of taking a vitamin in my good health. and if that status ever changes I am going to remember there is a downside to that U-shape, as in it works until it doesn’t.


“In these nursing home veterans, vitamin D supplement users were the most frail but with high 25 (OH) D. This can potentially be a cause of U-shaped associations between vitamin D levels and negative health outcomes.”

“One of the recent controversies in vitamin D research is a “U-shaped association”, [7–9] in which both high and low levels of vitamin D are associated with elevated disease risks [7]. Regarding all-cause mortality, most observational population-based studies have shown that low vitamin D predicted premature death, which is supported by recent meta-analyses [10–13]. However, there were a considerable number of studies that showed U-shaped or reverse J-shaped associations between vitamin D and mortality [14–20].”

Vitamin D supplementation as a potential cause of U-shaped associations between vitamin D levels and negative health outcomes: a decision tree analysis for risk of frailty

A recent controversy in vitamin D research is a “U-shaped association”, with elevated disease risks at both high and low 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25 (OH) D) levels.This is a cross-sectional study of 238 male nursing home veterans in Hawaii. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“When a study reports a U-shaped curve it means that there is the lowest incidence of disease in the middle ranges, with peaks in both the lower and upper ranges. A graph of the outcomes would look something like the image on the right.

A similar type of graph is sometimes reported as a “backwards-J” shaped curve. In this case the outcome is still the best in the middle region, but the outcome is worse in the low levels than the high levels. On the right is an example of a backwards-J shaped graph.”

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Here is another U-shape association vitamin controversy, B12 and cancer. I am wondering if the supplement being safe is because it is restricting tryptophan, methionine and cysteine….

Relationship between serum B12 concentrations and mortality: experience in NHANES

There is conflicting evidence in the literature on the association between (elevated) serum B12 concentrations and subsequent disease or mortality. We evaluated in the NHANES general population the association of serum B12 concentrations as well as vitamin ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“The growth and metastasis of a variety of tumors are inhibited by saturated fatty acids, and increased by fish oil--as much as 10 times in number of metastases, 1000 times in size (Griffini, et al., 1998).” -Ray Peat