The High Acetylcholine Syndrome

[xeliex]

Shame - I was hoping there might be other options than trying to 'brute force' our acetylcholine with drugs or diet.

Same, but at least some of 8 things I had listed through listening to Ray and reading Hans' should help.

 

[Peater]

If you think it’s high just limit eggs and liver as they have the highest raw choline along with chickpeas and salmon

I'll keep a watch on that thanks

Am I right in thinking methionine is the 'opposing' amino acid for choline?

 

[Hans]

Hans, this was very enlightening. Thank you. I realized that I personally have been having these symptoms since I was a child with varying degrees, especially the blurry vision that puzzled doctors along with bradycardia, OCD, cold extremities, dreams, and many other symptoms.

What is the root cause of "high acetylcholine syndrome" though. You offer excellent methods of controlling it with meds/supplements (and carbs), but can something else be inducing this syndrome in people? I've went through this several times and listened to some Dr. Peat videos. Please correct anything that needs correction below on what the causes might be.

Some of the main causes I could find for high acetylcholine are:

1) Low calcium diet leading to an increase of the activated vitamin D (not the 25 hydroxy).
2) Certain pesticide / organophosphates decreasing proper acetylcholinesterase function
3) Low carbs / overexercising - insulin attenuates symptoms
4) Learned helplessness - an unenriched environment under authoritarians and no fun regimes
5) Low thyroid function? T3 might inhibit its synthesis or release
6) Vitamin deficiencies, including A, D, and K
7) Increased serotonin which can be related to a host of other factors including gut irritation
8) Certain vitamin and supplements, like excess B vitamins or cholinergic supplements perhaps.

Good points there. I think the dysregulation of neurotransmitters can be due to a variety of reasons. Most important are gut irritation, micronutrients and cellular energy production. Removing cellular energy production roadblocks is key. I think using compounds to increase the NAD:NADH ratio and lower stress can be very helpful overall.

 

[Frankdee20]

I'll keep a watch on that thanks

Am I right in thinking methionine is the 'opposing' amino acid for choline?

I’m not sure but I know whatever helps with methylation will spare choline

 

[Lokzo]

High acetylcholine supports PARASYMPATHETIC activity too.

Neurons of the parasympathetic nervous system utilize acetylcholine (ACh).

Physiology, Autonomic Nervous System - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[deliciousfruit]

Could taking thyroid be raising my acetylcholine? When I take thyroid, I start crying a lot, and start having a lot of negative thoughts. I feel hopeless and helpless. It lowers my temperature but raises my heart rate, which doesn't add up though.

 

[Hans]

Could taking thyroid be raising my acetylcholine? When I take thyroid, I start crying a lot, and start having a lot of negative thoughts. I feel hopeless and helpless. It lowers my temperature but raises my heart rate, which doesn't add up though.

Is your diet nutrient-dense? Are you consuming enough vitamins and minerals to support the increase in energy production?

 

[deliciousfruit]

Is your diet nutrient-dense? Are you consuming enough vitamins and minerals to support the increase in energy production?

Yes. Lots of milk, fruit juice and eggs. Gelatin. Liver and oysters once a week. I made the mistake of not eating enough when starting thyroid the first time but I didn't make that mistake again this time, but the same symptoms.

 

[deliciousfruit]

Is your diet nutrient-dense? Are you consuming enough vitamins and minerals to support the increase in energy production?

You know, I just remembered that my reaction to pregnenolone initially was the exact same. Uncontrollable crying etc. I was taking a maintenance dose of 2 drops StressNon at the time of starting the thyroid, so maybe the increased T3 was stimulating more pregnenolone synthesis, thus creating symptoms? Still doesn't explain my reaction to the pregnenolone though.

Edit:
I read in your article that DHEA-S and Pregnenolone-S are agonists at the sigma receptor - thus increasing acetylcholine? Maybe that's the reasoning... I don't remember getting the effects from oral pregnenolone, possibly because less of it converts to DHEA and more to progesterone - sigma receptor antagonist?

Would also explain the increase in heart rate - "Physiologic effects when the σ–receptor is activated include hypertonia, tachycardia, tachypnea, antitussive effects, and mydriasis.

 

[Hans]

You know, I just remembered that my reaction to pregnenolone initially was the exact same. Uncontrollable crying etc. I was taking a maintenance dose of 2 drops StressNon at the time of starting the thyroid, so maybe the increased T3 was stimulating more pregnenolone synthesis, thus creating symptoms? Still doesn't explain my reaction to the pregnenolone though.

Edit:
I read in your article that DHEA-S and Pregnenolone-S are agonists at the sigma receptor - thus increasing acetylcholine? Maybe that's the reasoning... I don't remember getting the effects from oral pregnenolone, possibly because less of it converts to DHEA and more to progesterone - sigma receptor antagonist?

Would also explain the increase in heart rate - "Physiologic effects when the σ–receptor is activated include hypertonia, tachycardia, tachypnea, antitussive effects, and mydriasis.

Progesterone might be exactly what you need. I have a client that reacts exactly the same way as you to pregnenolone and progesterone has been great against that reaction. IIRC, he said he used just 2 drops of progestene and that was all that was needed.

 

[xeliex]

You know, I just remembered that my reaction to pregnenolone initially was the exact same. Uncontrollable crying etc. I was taking a maintenance dose of 2 drops StressNon at the time of starting the thyroid, so maybe the increased T3 was stimulating more pregnenolone synthesis, thus creating symptoms? Still doesn't explain my reaction to the pregnenolone though.

Edit:
I read in your article that DHEA-S and Pregnenolone-S are agonists at the sigma receptor - thus increasing acetylcholine? Maybe that's the reasoning... I don't remember getting the effects from oral pregnenolone, possibly because less of it converts to DHEA and more to progesterone - sigma receptor antagonist?

Would also explain the increase in heart rate - "Physiologic effects when the σ–receptor is activated include hypertonia, tachycardia, tachypnea, antitussive effects, and mydriasis.

Thank you for this.

My twitching had been really bothering me. After stopping DHEA/Pregnenolone (idealabs) the symptoms are almost gone. Maybe it is too early to say, but it seems to have been the trigger.

 

[deliciousfruit]

Progesterone might be exactly what you need. I have a client that reacts exactly the same way as you to pregnenolone and progesterone has been great against that reaction. IIRC, he said he used just 2 drops of progestene and that was all that was needed.

??? I ordered a bottle of progestene.

 

[deliciousfruit]

Thank you for this.

My twitching had been really bothering me. After stopping DHEA/Pregnenolone (idealabs) the symptoms are almost gone. Maybe it is too early to say, but it seems to have been the trigger.

I hope I'm right, and thanks to Hans for the article!
I wonder how many others can't tolerate thyroid due to this, and haven't tried progesterone because of the 'female hormone' aspect.
Also, according to the wikipedia article, on the activation of the sigma receptor: "Other individuals, however, experience dysphoria and often report feelings of malaise or anxiety".

 

[xeliex]

I hope I'm right, and thanks to Hans for the article!
I wonder how many others can't tolerate thyroid due to this, and haven't tried progesterone because of the 'female hormone' aspect.

I have tried progesterone for a couple of days at a time max and it always seems to significantly lower my stress symptoms and increase my temperature, especially in the hands and feet. I use it few times a month and can report no negative symptoms at all ( I am male).

I wonder if these side effects are from contamination in usp progesterone. I know Georgi is in the process of testing it as the first testing facility wasn't super accurate if I understood correctly. Dr. Peat has said in the past that he thinks all pregnenelone might has estrogenic compounds in it that the body is very sensitive to. Moreover, DHEA can be converted to estrogen in the right/wrong conditions. So in the end, it might be an estrogenic problem.

 

[Soren]

Could gut issues be the cause of high acetylcholine? I have stopped eating the things that seemed to be causing the acetylcholine syndrome for me: liver,
vitamin E, shilajit, eggs etc but I really feel like I am missing out on some very beneficial nutrients.

After not eating these things for about a month my symptoms went away and I have slowly tried to reintroduce them but if I have more than one serving of liver or a few too many eggs in a week they seem to return. The symptoms I primarily experience are debilitating excess saliva. I have been taking megaspore biotics and I think these may have assisted somewhat but the problem is still persistent.

I'm planning on taking some camphosol to help clear out the gut and hoping that this leads to some improvement. Also might try some cortinon+ 8:1 progesterone to DHEA. As progesterone seems to be recommended a lot here for resolution of symptoms.

 

[Hans]

Could gut issues be the cause of high acetylcholine? I have stopped eating the things that seemed to be causing the acetylcholine syndrome for me: liver,
vitamin E, shilajit, eggs etc but I really feel like I am missing out on some very beneficial nutrients.

After not eating these things for about a month my symptoms went away and I have slowly tried to reintroduce them but if I have more than one serving of liver or a few too many eggs in a week they seem to return. The symptoms I primarily experience are debilitating excess saliva. I have been taking megaspore biotics and I think these may have assisted somewhat but the problem is still persistent.

I'm planning on taking some camphosol to help clear out the gut and hoping that this leads to some improvement. Also might try some cortinon+ 8:1 progesterone to DHEA. As progesterone seems to be recommended a lot here for resolution of symptoms.

Both histamine and acetylcholine can promote the secretion of saliva. Do you have histamine intolerance as well, or not really?

 

[Soren]

Both histamine and acetylcholine can promote the secretion of saliva. Do you have histamine intolerance as well, or not really?

I don't know if I have a histamine intolerance. Whenever I drink alcohol I get slightly congested but that is something I have had for many years the issue with saliva is new.

I am not allergic to anything as far as I am aware. I have had issues with rosacea in the past. I take Cypro pretty much everyday since I started getting these saliva secretion issues and I think that it helps to some degree.

But I had never had issues with saliva secretion in the past. It started after a few months of taking shilajit, vitamin E and dessicated liver every day. So I am pretty sure it is related to acetylcholine rather than histamine.

 

[Soren]

I seemed to have had the excess salavia condition under control but it seems to have popped again after I started taking some new supplements that I thought would help address it.

I began taking Tyromix (t3 & t4) 6keto-p4 and camphosal. I'm thinking that it is the camphosal that is having the effect any thoughts?

It is similar to aspirin. Ingredients are: Camphoric Acid, FG: 200mg
Salol (phenyl salicylate), FG: 100mg

Salol is like aspirin.

 

[xeliex]

I seemed to have had the excess salavia condition under control but it seems to have popped again after I started taking some new supplements that I thought would help address it.

I began taking Tyromix (t3 & t4) 6keto-p4 and camphosal. I'm thinking that it is the camphosal that is having the effect any thoughts?

It is similar to aspirin. Ingredients are: Camphoric Acid, FG: 200mg
Salol (phenyl salicylate), FG: 100mg

Salol is like aspirin.

I am in a similar boat as you.

The issue of stuffed nose post alcohol could be related to endotoxin as alcohol increases permeability. I think endotoxin is at the root of almost all problems through increasing serotonin that cascades into increased estrogen, nitric oxide, histamine, etc...

 

[Hans]

I seemed to have had the excess salavia condition under control but it seems to have popped again after I started taking some new supplements that I thought would help address it.

I began taking Tyromix (t3 & t4) 6keto-p4 and camphosal. I'm thinking that it is the camphosal that is having the effect any thoughts?

It is similar to aspirin. Ingredients are: Camphoric Acid, FG: 200mg
Salol (phenyl salicylate), FG: 100mg

Salol is like aspirin.

Does coffee make your mouth drier?