Why Is There So Much Soluble Fibre In Human Breast Milk?

[narouz]

ive tried many things in the past, that's how I know what im doing now is better. The gut brain connection is mostly a stress response thing, it can be serotonin, histamine, or other things. THe gut doesn't generate catecholamines, thyroid, testosterone, progesterone or any of the beneficial hormones, it just generates stress signals or immune intermediates if its offended. I don't ignore human nature, in fact by following it to the fullest ive realized whats best. Im not talking about someone's theory of human apes or whatever, im talking my actual self, my nature, here now, whatever that is. Fiber is inpalatable by itself. Milk and sugar brews taste great, if you add fiber to it it just is annoying. What nature are you trusting? Does adding gooey mucus like tasteless bacteria/yeast make what you eat more palatable, or taste better?

You know, pboy, one notion I'm exploring these days is,
since I'm not really running on all cylinders and I don't think all is well with my microbiome...

...is I'm wondering if it might be necessary
in such a situation
to actually try to feed and cultivate and grow some good bacteria.
You may remember I've speculated I'm suffering from the dreaded Imaginary Candida Overgrowth.
Post-antibiotics.
Play along with me here. :)

So if the Candida are overgrown and out of whack,
maybe I need to encourage the growth of "good bacteria" to put the Candida in their place...?

I know...who knows!
But I'm experimenting with it (and other stuff)
and things do seem to be improving.

Maybe certain situations call for certain strategies....

 

[narouz]

Thanks Narouz that looks fascinating.
I'm appendix- less too. I miss it.

I've wondered whether it is possible
at uBiome
or
The American Gut Project,
where they do DNA sequencing of your gut microbiome,
if it is possible to compare biomes
of appendixed
vs
appendixless people....

 

[oxidation_is_normal]

im pretty sure most people have so much bacteria because they are eating a lot of indigestible food, that's basically it...its a way to prevent colon blockage from sticky material, the bacteria break it into more soluble products that can be eliminated...that's why the immune system lets them live there. At the same time they are throwing out toxic by products but that is better than having colon blockage. The less you allow garbage to enter your large intestine, the less bacteria necessary, the less toxic by products enter your blood and liver, the better you function. Resistant starch is a huge obvious thing, its not soluble, and sticky, and in the end of the colon once water is squeezed out it would become hard and sticky and casue blockage if not for bacteria eating it. Semi digested protein is similar

At any point in time the immune system could nuke the bacteria out, but based on how your mind is, what you eat, what you would potentially eat, ect, it keeps them around to the extent it thinks they are needed

the more bacteria action happening, the more serotonin, which is released from the same type of cells that trigger allergic reactions and histamine and stuff, its not something that's ideal, its something that happens when poisons or offenses happen, and it shifts your body more from functioning to immunity and detoxing. Its a s*** way to live

That's some pretty ignorant stuff, dude. I guess you write some pretty passionate and fun-to-read posts, which people quite like... But you need some mad references for:
1) "At any point in time the immune system could nuke the bacteria out [of the gut]..."
2) That the only reason the immune system lets bacteria live in the gut is because it is a way to get indigestible food out.
What does this even mean? Peristalsis pushes the food out. You have a hole at the other end for a reason... Are you expecting complete absorption?
3) "the more bacteria action happening, the more serotonin..."
Silly as hell

 

[oxidation_is_normal]

I love how people in this thread are like... "It's 2015, why do I need to be having a microbiome at all?" I feel silly even trying to describe why this is laughable. Even termites have a microbiome... Because they eat too much fiber? Lol!

 

[pboy]

lol

get your head out of your **** dude, start living and having some balls to test things, don't just talk about theories. What beneficial results has you or anyone had from doing all the bacteria ***t....I don't think a single person has really got super doped happy and healthy doing that

you want referances rather than personal tested over a lot of time actual experience...you're hopeless if that's the case, you're basically living in some weird reality if that's how you live. Try stuff yourself, its too much to explain. The point is my health is great and it doesn't matter what is going on, if there is bacteria, if there isn't, what type, whatever....it doesn't matter. What I do to stay healthy, that kind of ***t isn't even in my consideration at all. That's the point im trying to make. You will get no where thinking about that kind of thing, its irrelivent. You are pretty far from what it really takes to be happy or healthy in life if that's the type of ***t on your mind. A lot of stuff isn't even food or diet based, something as small as gut bacteria stuff is like...worthless to even consider. Eat a diet of fruit and dairy and it doesn't matter if theres bacteria in your colon or not, trying to manipulate that directly and mechanically isn't the answer to anything

maybe I have a thriving colony of 'good bacteria' ...who knows, im just saying its not really something to focus on, focus on what you can sense taste and feel, and that will naturally regulate itself

 

[Stuart]

@pboy,
Calmez vous , vous deux!
And don't forget that just by eating the pectin in fruit, you're already encouraging the beneficial bacteria in your microbiome. Papaya is one of the healthiest foods you can eat for microbial enhancement.
So enjoy! Your microbiome will love you for it.

@ Narouz
Just my take on Ubiome and American Gut project. Although I think Jeff Leach is a really thought provoking researcher (the photo of him stooping to quench his thirst from a baboon turd infested puddle in Tanzania during a field trip to Hadza land is one of my all time favourite scenes - the golden hour backdrop of the fertile crescent from whence we all ventured those hundreds of thousands of years ago, the crazy contemporary anthropologist/physiologist doing his stuff in style etc) gene sequencing peoples microbiome seems to be posing a lot more questions than it is answering. For instance, although even Hadza kids routinely consume about 150 grams of fermentable fiber (mostly from the prodigious amounts of pectin in baobab) the Hadza don't have very many bifido bacteria in their microbiomes. And nobody has a clue yet why. They do have plenty of other beneficial bacteria present and dominant. But not bifido.
But I do agree, the question of how losing your appendix affects your microbiome is fascinating.

The candida/microbiome connection was the first thing that alerted me to the importance of having a well nourished microbiome. It was a revelation to me that candida is a necessary and beneficial part of a healthy human body. But when it goes to the dark side when you suffer from dysbiosis it can be devastating. Same for H pylori in your stomach. These good/bad faces of the same bacteria/yeasts/viruses - all entirely mediated by your microbiome - I find really intriguing. I'd spent most of my life labouring under the misapprehension that candida was always bad. Just as I think Dr. Peat is wrong that bacteria are necessarily bad. It's just a very reassuring oversimplification. The entire notion of trying to make your S.I as sterile as possible just seems a bit facile. But maybe Dr. Peat is just dumbing it down for the pboys of this world. Because he's clearly a very smart cookie.
The utter sophistication of pathogenic bacteria in coping with humans' clumsy and primitive attempts to control them - broad spectrum antibiotics/antifungals etc. are surely testament to how powerful a research lab evolution has been. Pathogenic bacteria even know how to hide INSIDE MACROPHAGES - whose sole purpose is to control pathogens. Macrophages certainly aren't the only string to a fully functioning immune system's bow of course. Those T regs the video that Amazoniac posted mentioned are another. And so much of effective deployment of the various mechanisms of the human immune system ( not to mention most other species on planet earth who have a gut -eg. all the way down to the termites someone mentioned) are mediated by the gut microbiome.
You mentioned epigenetics being a far more powerful engine of immune system behaviour than genetics. Do you know that before I started learning about the microbiome, I had no idea of the horizontal gene transfer going on in your colon bacteria constantly. In fact to me it just seems a bit insulting to whatever creative force designed us (call it nature, evolution, god.. whatever rocks your boat) that the huge bacterial soup in our colons, ISN'T coordinating the immune system's firepower. It can't possibly JUST be happening at a cellular level. I think that's just silly. Not when individual bacteria constantly swap segments of DNA with other gut bacteria, and communicate instantly with the other end of your body and everything in between through things like exosomes etc.

 

[tara]

Calmez toi, vous deux!

:)

 

[pboy]

na im good, ill tell you what though...ill save any scraps I get and send them to you guys so you can eat and feed your bacteria colonies you are harboring purposefully in your colons

its actually really weird how adamant people get about growing bacteria and what not...bacteria grows on things that are rotting, it makes no sense to do that to yourself on purpose when you don't need to...I mean its incredibly simple, but whatever...do whatever you all want, its your consequences. Ive already said basically all I can in this topic, intelligent people will choose what to try, others can go down your route

(btw, gut fermentation size and brain size are directly anti correlated)

 

[Stuart]

(btw, gut fermentation size and brain size are directly anti correlated)

This should be interesting! Pray tell.

 

[Stuart]

Oops

 

[Stuart]

Stuart, do you think the skin/scalp/nail afflictions reflect excretion of toxins that invaded via the gut?

Probably. Intestinal permeability is the first casualty of a microbiome that is forced to eat the endothelium rather than the fermentable fiber coming in. And once you have intestinal permeability, you're even less tolerant of fermentable fiber. It seems like an awful vicious circle to me.
What I find most interesting about all this is that the problems seem to be cross generational. I can recognize the same impulsiveness in the behaviour of my mother's maternal family line ( and it's maternally transmitted - by the birth canal innoculation process) as I expererienced myself for all those years I was a runaway column of yeast overgrowths. Just getting my memory back (both short and long term) has been an amazingly gratifying result of getting my microbiome back in shape.

 

[Stuart]

What did eat as fermentable fibre to fix your issues? I would be surprised if just eating vegetables like many people do would fix gut problems.

People who eat fruit are already eating pectin. So pectin seemed an obvious choice. So I bought a big bag of pectin and one of long chain inulin, the other prebiotic so plentiful in below ground vegetables. I try to take at least 130g in total/day. But I'm probably getting about 25g just from fruit /veges, and collagen in bones/connective animal tissue as well.
I also eat a pinch of soil from an organic farm for the SBO's most days.
I've been doing this for about a year and a half.
I do agree that reducing pufa/ phytates/oxalic acid are really helpful too. And getting plenty of saturated fat of course. I get more saturated fat than most people because a lot of the fermentable fiber is used by beneficial gut bacteria to make butyrate. which is absorbed through the colon endothelium and used as an energy substrate just like any dietary fat.
I've also started taking aspirin and caffeine. I've always conceded that many of Dr. Peat's ideas are compelling.
But I do think he's got a bit of a blind spot about the microbiome.

 

[jyb]

I also eat a pinch of soil from an organic farm for the SBO's most days.

So you got SBO? Eating a pinch of soil is pretty much the ideal recommendation of Art Ayers from Coolinginflammation, although he warns this carries risks as soil carries pathogens too.

 

[EnoreeG]

There are a lot of ways pathogens have of destroying us. Mimicry, taking over genetic controls, inserting themselves into cells and stealing the energy, etc. They are very tricky once they get inside us. I don't mean in our gut. That is still outside us. All the more reason to keep the gut endothelium intact, well coated with mucus, continually absorbing minerals and other nutrients while repelling toxins and pathogenic onslaughts, and able to do repairs in short order. This is immunity, and this is predominantly the chore the commensals have decided to do for us, all for the price of sufficient food, which is the fermentable fiber we can't digest anyway. We are hardly attacked by pathogens in any way (if we don't have open wounds) compared how we could be under a continual state of attack in the intestines if we didn't have commensal bacterial forces working in our favor.

Relatively speaking, the commensals make life relatively easy for us "hosts". Otherwise, it would be a jungle in there. Just my "easy" point of view again.

Are both of these statements true?

Peat believes in keeping the small intestine pretty sterile.
Enoree believes in keeping the small intestine pretty sterile.

"Are both of these statements true?"

They are until you put any single (or multiple) specie of pathogen in charge in your gut. It's so simple to just put almost any species of friendly bacteria in charge though, why take the chance on a pathogen? But people do it every day when they take their doctor's orders and take a broad spectrum antibiotic.

Isn't it interesting that unless someone has submitted a stool sample for assay, they have absolutely no idea what their dominant bacterial species is down there? Absolutely no idea. Let alone that there are probably a good 30-50 genuses, each with several species, of commensal bacteria in the gut, all of which vastly outnumber any pathogen present. People usually cannot even name one of the good guys who inhabit their gut in the billions! Yet most of us readily recognize the names of several pathogens.

If there's anything vague about my answer to this, narouz, I'm guessing it might be because someone hasn't read my other posts here or doesn't get the fact that I totally subscribe to the notion that an ample quantity of one species of bacteria can totally control any other species of bacteria. This is my assumption until someone can show that minimal numbers of a bacteria has any kind of power over a hugely outnumbering other species.

Somehow, Enoree, I had it in my head that you had said
you thought most of the small intestine should be pretty clean--
just the lower part and colon needing lots of bacteria...

But my head was wrong!

The confluence I thought might exist between you and Peat on the gut was this:
I thought maybe you and Peat aimed for about the same result
(a largely clean upper part of the small intestine),
but seek to get there through different strategies:
Peat whacks back bacteria with carrot and antibiotics and eating little fiber and starch.
Enoree tries to get the bacteria to do the controlling and containment--to control themselves.

Like I say,
I think I was mistaken and you advocate a more robustly populated small intestine--all of it.

The rough model I'm exploring myself is somewhere in between you and Peat.
It's possible, maybe, that a healthy gut could look a lot like Peat's ideal:
very clean small intestine,
with some bacteria down in the lower reaches,
and bacteria in the colon.

I'm thinking that once one's gut gets screwed up
for whatever reason--
antibiotics an obvious culprit--
then the road back to a good bacteria balance may involve some feeding from us,
as you and others here advocate.
And, in my case, with no appendix, perhaps a bit more tricky and complicated.

And the intentional feeding/cultivation by us of the good guy bacteria
is probably only part of the puzzle.
Add to that piece pboy's metaphysical piece.
And then nutrients, sunlight, stress, etc.

Sorry if I said something to confuse you on this, narouz. I don't know what I said though. I've said little about the small intestine bacterial load, so I don't want you to infer that I'm in favor of substantial bacteria there. I agree with you and Stuart and Peat (probably) that a main focus with respect to the small intestine is to keep the bacterial load rather small, to prevent SIBO and disruption of proper digestion that is supposed to take place there via human enzymes, etc.

When I, repeating your question, said

"Are both of these statements true?"

They are until you put any single (or multiple) specie of pathogen in charge in your gut. It's so simple to just put almost any species of friendly bacteria in charge though, why take the chance on a pathogen?

I was referring to "the gut" but certainly didn't mean to include the small intestine (SI) as a focal point. I think of bacteria in the gut as residing in the large intestine and colon and that is where we should "culture" them if we need to mess around with the culture at all. So that's what I meant. Bacteria in the small intestine, in a healthy human should be of minimal concern, like on the skin. Yes, there in the SI, if you are having to pay attention to bacteria, you have a problem.

Narouz, if you had your appendix out, there is more chance of SIBO, and definite difficulty in getting over it. Did you already know this? I didn't, but I just searched now and found that this is common, as the operation to remove it often causes your ileocecal valve to not be as functional as normal, and you may suffer almost continual leakage up into the small intestine. Read some of the reader comments here:

SIBO—What causes it and why

 

[EnoreeG]

Honey and cow's milk contain oligos right? Wouldn't that feed gut bacteria in the large intestine?

Yes, but the honey might feed SIBO bacteria in the small intestine first, for someone having excess bacteria there.

And it's proven that honey and milk together are conducive to rapid growth of bifidobacteria in the large intestine, as the oligos in honey speed the process of fermentation. I understand Peat is already aware of this and is against it.

Honey and Bifidobacteria

Fermented foods in general

These are not my ideas. I don't shy away from fermented foods, but being allergic to milk, I limit the ferments I eat to things like sauerkraut, and I don't eat much of that.

 

[EnoreeG]

What if this "large bag of bacteria," as Stuart calls it, exists because we evolved in an environment where access to enough nutrition without tons of fiber was impossible - thus we needed this large intestine to process all this fiber and acquire extra nutrition from it that could potentially make us healthier and stronger.

Does that necessarily mean that it is necessary for us to use this bag?

Similarly, we evolved a liver to detoxify certain chemicals from our body, as we evolved in an environment where their presence was inevitable, but that does not mean it is necessary to our good health to consume toxins for the liver to detox.

I like this argument, especially the analogy with the liver.

That evolution you spoke of, if it really brought lots of fiber (I don't know this as a fact) also brought a human dependence on the vitamins that the gut microbes produced. You see people now feeling dependent on supplements because they don't eat, or can't find, truly nourishing plants to consume. Meat and eggs, especially without organ meats, won't give proper nutrition. They don't feed the microbes. Well, if you ate the intestines (and their contents) of animals you ate, you might get vitamins like primitive man did. But generally, I think there's a case to be made for eating plant foods that allow humans to continue to nourish themselves as they evolved, not as modern industry wishes to feed us. Personally, I eat organic veggies from my garden, and prefer that to offal. So I guess I need my "large bag" as much as ever.

And that's just for nutrition. We've been talking a lot here about the role that the gut microbiome plays in our immune system. Some writers claim that the gut microbes constitute up to 80% of our immune system. Do you see that as possible?

 

[EnoreeG]

The 1st question is: is bacteria essential to physiological function and by physiological function I refer to the process of supplying energy and nutrients to each and every cell in the body and filtering out the byproducts of this process.

Most studied benefits of a healthy bacteria profile has nothing to do with supplying nutrients, although some claim it does provide some. It's more about preventing overgrowth of pathogens and interaction with the immune system to promote gut lining repair.

The 2nd question: explain the physiological mechanics of the common experience where people treated with antibiotics feel temporary relief from digestive issues.

In gut dysbiosis, some suggest to start with antibiotics before thinking on how to reintroduce healthier bacteria. If you kill pathogens, I'm sure its good as a bandaid. It's not guarantee it will kill more of the endotoxin bacteria though, sometimes I read antibiotics kill more of the anti-inflammatory bacteria rather than the pathogens. Hence some are cautious with antibiotics, but in some conditions you may have no choice but to turn to more "extreme" treatment initially: antibiotics or stool transplant. Just eating vegetables (even fermented) may have no effect on gut profile when you have dysbiosis - it's too late for an easy course of action. But there are very specific anti-inflammatory effects for some of these foods, in some conditions, otherwise.

Sounds like a reasonable function but is it essential.
I thought the immune system should be the first line in defense, though, it's definitely an advantage having a good flora as a 2nd line of of defense.

As for antibiotics, the relief seem to be from a state where bacteria activity is minimised.
This supports the idea of minimising their activity as opposed to promoting it.

I always think of the gut microbiome as the 1st line of defense, not the 2nd. I like that writers claim it constitutes 80% of the immune system. I'm just saying what I like, because XPlus has asked for proof of bacteria being essential to physiological function:

I challenge anyone to provide evidence for the essential role of bacteria in physiology.

but also

I don't know about studies. Prescript assist is backed with scientific research and so is the heart healthy consumption of canola oil.

so I don't know what is required for proof if studies are insufficient. But here's an interesting video on the quorum sensing that goes on in a bacterial environment. It will address your comment

Pathogenic bacteria could be there in the gut all the time but not lead to trouble unless the right conditions allows for it.

Bassler Ted talk

After viewing the video, you might allow that the short answer is, "Yes, the pathogens are there all along, but it doesn't matter as they are at the beck and call of the dominant species, and the only 'right conditions' that allow pathogens to do anything significant to the human host are when, for some reason (usually antibiotics) the dominant dozens of commensal species of bacteria are wiped out".

On antibiotics helping some gut conditions, this is almost always something applied for small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO), and, as jyb said, it seems to work only short-term, as there is usually a physiological problem (usually a leaky sphincter between small and large intestine) that reintroduces excess bacteria to the small intestine. More here:

Treating SIBO

Diet for SIBO

The problem with treating SIBO with antibiotics is also that you don't just effect that environment, but also the microbiome in the large intestine, which is the bulk of your immune system.

On your statement elsewhere that the dominant species in the gut can change quite rapidly, that may be the case, but it doesn't prove that the bacteria are insignificant. All that happens if dominant species of bacteria change, is something like a "changing of the guard" at any military post. The enemy is still known and identified, you just have a different beneficial species (or 2 or dozens) that are now prominent, thanks to different foods being ingested.

As I've said elsewhere, I eat to first feed my immune system, which is primarily microbial, and second to get the nutrition I need, while making sure my "nutritious" foods don't do anything to hamper those microbes.

 

[Stuart]

@Fred
I used the 'bag of bacteria' analogy purely descriptively. I think we should all be immensely proud of our hundred trillion gut buddies. They're looking out for us via countless immune system mechanisms we're only just beginning to understand. But I can't help thinking that the way you repeat it, you don't really like the idea that a big part and parcel of your mid section. so intricately involved in every aspect of your well being, is actually just a big anaerobic septic tank. Pboy's lament that 'bacteria just make things rot' was very revealing. I don't think all bacteria are bad. The commensals do good stuff and the pathogens bad. We all harbour small populations of pathogens that if the beneficial commensals lose control of, can have dire health consequences. E coli is one. But I don't think we want to have ZERO onboard pathogens in our guts. Because if the good guys aren't constantly sharpening their teeth on the pathogens, they fall out of practice, and then simply won't be up to the job when it's necessary. Get dirty regularly, and let your kids do likewise. You owe it to your guts.
Also, I got the impression that you are suggesting that because we don't HAVE TO eat a lot of fiber in the modern world, maybe that's an option. There may be some future GMO technology which will enable you to dispense with your colon entirely. But I don't think it will happen in the next several lifetimes. Until then, it's perhaps a good idea to put up with the one you've got, and look after it and the bacteria it contains. otherwise you're just inviting inflammation aren't you? I can't think of any other body part that you can just take out of commission and not use the way nature intended. Why would your colon be any different?

That's really interesting that honey contains significant amounts of fermentable fiber. I had no idea. I'm pretty sure the amount in cows milk is miniscule compared to human milk though. Pity.

 

[Stuart]

So you got SBO? Eating a pinch of soil is pretty much the ideal recommendation of Art Ayers from Coolinginflammation, although he warns this carries risks as soil carries pathogens too.

I don't eat any fermented foods. I know Art Ayers (and many others) recommends them. But it isn't for the probiotics. None of the bacteria in fermented foods can populate the colon. Wrong species apparently. They do have other benefits though. And I had dairy goats for thirty years and made yoghurt and kefir every day. I actually think the acidity of fermented foods is really bad for your teeth. YMMV of course.
If you want the bacterial strains that will proliferate in your gut they have to come from soil. Any pinch of soil on planet earth contains billions of bacteria of over 35.000 species. Alarmists do whinge about the dangers of 'spore forming bacteria' in dirt. But kids spend many years playing in and inadvertently consuming small amounts of common full bacterial spectrum random dirt. Before tables, chairs and eating utensils so did adults. Besides, SBO pills (like Prescript Assist and Primal Defense are only a limited number of species. I'm not even sure that we even know yet which ones we should be taking. It probably varies from person to person on any particular day. So I just think dirt is a much better way to get SBO's . Sure I ingest some pathogens too. I think they're part of the big picture of a healthy immune system.
Actually the main reason is that I'm just really tight. SBO pills are SO expensive. I'd rather spend the money on a few Papaya, and take the risk with dirt. So far so good

 

[YuraCZ]

So you got SBO? Eating a pinch of soil is pretty much the ideal recommendation of Art Ayers from Coolinginflammation, although he warns this carries risks as soil carries pathogens too.

I don't eat any fermented foods. I know Art Ayers (and many others) recommends them. But it isn't for the probiotics. None of the bacteria in fermented foods can populate the colon. Wrong species apparently. They do have other benefits though. And I had dairy goats for thirty years and made yoghurt and kefir every day. I actually think the acidity of fermented foods is really bad for your teeth. YMMV of course.
If you want the bacterial strains that will proliferate in your gut they have to come from soil. Any pinch of soil on planet earth contains billions of bacteria of over 35.000 species. Alarmists do whinge about the dangers of 'spore forming bacteria' in dirt. But kids spend many years playing in and inadvertently consuming small amounts of common full bacterial spectrum random dirt. Before tables, chairs and eating utensils so did adults. Besides, SBO pills (like Prescript Assist and Primal Defense are only a limited number of species. I'm not even sure that we even know yet which ones we should be taking. It probably varies from person to person on any particular day. So I just think dirt is a much better way to get SBO's . Sure I ingest some pathogens too. I think they're part of the big picture of a healthy immune system.
Actually the main reason is that I'm just really tight. SBO pills are SO expensive. I'd rather spend the money on a few Papaya, and take the risk with dirt. So far so good

Kefir CAN.. Btw what you think about bentonite clay? I take 1 heaped teaspoon per day with psyllium husk powder for detox.. I also want to start eat dirt. But which location is safest? Forest?