You cannot supplement your way out of spiritual issues.

[Peatful]

Are people on this forum aware that they are trying to use Ray’s work on metabolism as a means to overcome what are spiritual issues?

Example, people often refer to depression as a chemical imbalance. Yes, you can be metabolically depressed, but if you identify with the thoughts that YOU are depressed, then no matter how great your stack is to help you metabolically, you’ve already identified with it and that’s a much larger issue. To which you can not overcome that on your own efforts without God.

Anyone else notice this in themselves or others?

Not all spirituality is healthy spirituality



If you’re comfortable
I would like to hear more about what spirituality was healthy for you


Good topic
And appreciate all the thoughtful answers

 

[Bluebell]

I would be interested to hear more about your spirituality - the story of what you discovered and how you discovered it @chickasawlane

 

[tasfarelel]

Just to add two things I firmly believe:
1.) Working on your health with nutrition or supplements IS also spiritual work! It is one of the many ways to "love yourself".
2.) Spirituality is not at all equivalent to religion or believing/participating in any of the few mainstream representations of "God".

 

[Ben.]

Example, people often refer to depression as a chemical imbalance. Yes, you can be metabolically depressed, but if you identify with the thoughts that YOU are depressed, then no matter how great your stack is to help you metabolically, you’ve already identified with it and that’s a much larger issue. To which you can not overcome that on your own efforts without God.

I respectfully disagree. Incoming thought-train:

You cannot pray or meditate syphilis, parasites, lyme, systemic invasive fungi, heavy metals or bacteria out of your body. Not the way you need it to atleast (eventho that would be cool but we would need that do be demonstrated fairly consistently or else it is just one miracle out of millions of sufferers where it doesnt work)

What i acknowledge is however that spiritiual work, emotional work, social work etc. are very strong amplifiers where they heavily influence the nervous system and how much of what chemical we release/synthesize which in turn affects the immune system, digestion so on and so forth. So it is important but surprise surprise even that pathway is heavily compromised in the truly sick.

For the sake of the argument lets assume God does indeed exist then hes the one who made this hell on earth in the first place. A terrifying thought for sure.

... but if you identify with the thoughts that YOU are depressed ...

That is actually a very good point. A short personal anecdote: I used to do that as a teenager/young adult because there was no experience/state of being that i was able to compare it to. It was all i knew. Me the incapable sorry boy were nothing i touch or try or do works while feeling ***t in my body 24/7. So it is just naturally that one would think that "that" is oneself even if you dont want it to be. But on the contrary, all these supplements and self experiments were able to show me who i could be, truly. How one is supposed to feel and operate on a daily basis.

The "person" i was when i was helpless, suicidal, incapable, sad, angry, having a chronicly bad baseline is magnitudes different in commparison to "who i am" when im full of energy, fluently and effortlessly connecting socially, feeling strong and good all around - thoose are two completly seperate people. When im in one or the other state i cannot relate to the other end of the spectrum at all.
You are right in that that is not oneself, however i would argue much rather that one might never had the chance due to what ever it is that compromised the very foundations your system is operating on. Why man needs to detach himself of his body is odd to me instead of contemplating the idea that your body is just as much "you" as is the "you" that comes from your conciousness.

I know im fairly alone with my opinion but somatopsychic (is that the right word? i mean body related illnesses hurting/devastating the mind) is in my estimation way more prevalent and endemic than is psychosomatic disorders. I do not think ray peat is wrong. Atleast not fundamentally. Failing with "peaty" approaches can mean alot of things. Wrong dosage, wrong supplement, wrong medicine, wrong food for the individual situation.

But i am not dogmatic when it comes to healing in general. If one "heals" himself with happy thoughts more power to that person. If one manages it by drinking a specific kind of water or food. Awsome. It just needs to do the job well enough in the sense were one is truly healthy and resilient again.

 

[chickasawlane]

I know people wheelchair bound to fully recovered through neuroplasticity alone. Programs including dnrs, gupta, ans rewire etc.

Prior to peat I explored neuroplasticity and did all the he above programs. Whilst they had some impact in my physical health improved fatigue and so they did nothing to improve me in a biological level...as in did nothing for my connective tissue disease, hypothyroidism etc

I’ve never heard about the neuroplasticity programs you listed, I have to look them up.

Although, I am so glad you brought this up. I want to make clear that there is a big difference between medical issues and spiritual issues. I worked with MS patients before and I noticed besides the actual physiologic exhaustion they were facing from the disease itself, they spent a good amount of time stressing over what they couldn’t do anymore, and how it affected the things they identified with (husbands/wives, family, friends, hobbies, etc.).

I know people wheelchair bound to fully recovered through neuroplasticity alone. Programs including dnrs, gupta, ans rewire etc.

Prior to peat I explored neuroplasticity and did all the he above programs. Whilst they had some impact in my physical health improved fatigue and so they did nothing to improve me in a biological level...as in did nothing for my connective tissue disease, hypothyroidism etc

I’ve never heard about the neuroplasticity programs you listed, I have to look them up.
Although, I am so glad you brought this up. I want to make clear that there is a big difference between medical issues and spiritual issues. I am not saying all physical issues in the body are a result of a spiritual issue. Most times when people have an injury or disease, they’re not just dealing with the physical loss of ability, but the mental loss of their sense of identity.

People often relate too much to their biological states and physical abilities. This then drives their sense of self. A good example is a master craftsman who suffers a disease such as MS. If that man is way too attached to his performance to validate himself, he’s in for a world of pain when he starts to slow down. If he’s not attached to his craft and able to let it go despite investing decades into it, that is a spiritual issue.

Injuries and illnesses can be blessings if you view them in the right way. They can slow you down to a point where you are able to see yourself, and what was driving you in the first place. If you can’t handle the loss of a function and it challenges your identity, that’s a spiritual issue that you cannot supplement your way out of. Hope this makes sense

 

[Bozidar]

Interesting you think I’m being Authoritarian when I’m trying to have a dialogue with members of this forum. Tell me more about what made you come to this conclusion.

I’m very aware of environmental impacts on health and wellness. I also think that if someone has a meltdown because they touched a receipt and think the BPA is going to ruin their hormones in a split second, that’s delusional. That’s a spiritual issue, not a physical one.

I’m not saying go out and rub receipts all over your body, but if you’re constantly blaming things outside of you for why you’re feeling a certain way, maybe it’s time to take a closer look at yourself. You really don’t need boundless energy to do that.

People, don't debate this guy. He's classical new age victim mentality. He is trying to pull you in. He is here to make some mess just to feel better.

 

[chickasawlane]

People, don't debate this guy. He's classical new age victim mentality. He is trying to pull you in. He is here to make some mess just to feel better.

I had to look up what you’re talking about. That is definitely not what I’m pulling here. Christianity is not that, which is what I’m ultimately discussing here in this particular forum.

What do you think about forgiveness then? If someone wronged you, do you not believe in forgiving them and moving on from it? Do you think it’s beneficial to hold onto anger or resentment towards someone who has wrong you?

 

[mostlylurking]

What do you think about forgiveness then? If someone wronged you, do you not believe in forgiving them and moving on from it? Do you think it’s beneficial to hold onto anger or resentment towards someone who has wrong you?

I am reminded of what I've read about what Jackie Kennedy told John F. Kennedy Jr. regarding the people who assassinated his father: something like, "forgive them, but never forget their names".

I've been wronged plenty in the past by people who wanted to destroy me. I have released the anger and I am at peace in the present. I have released those who would destroy me back to the universe. But I will never forget their names. I will always be guarded if I find that I must be exposed to them again and I will protect myself.

 

[mostlylurking]

Just to add two things I firmly believe:
1.) Working on your health with nutrition or supplements IS also spiritual work! It is one of the many ways to "love yourself".
2.) Spirituality is not at all equivalent to religion or believing/participating in any of the few mainstream representations of "God".

 

[chickasawlane]

I am reminded of what I've read about what Jackie Kennedy told John F. Kennedy Jr. regarding the people who assassinated his father: something like, "forgive them, but do not forget their names".

I've been wronged plenty in the past by people who wanted to destroy me. I have released the anger and I am at peace in the present. I have released those who would destroy me back to the universe. But I will never forget their names. I will always be guarded if I find that I must be exposed to them again and I will protect myself.

You mentioned that you’ve released the anger and are at peace in the present. Do you consider the guarding to be at peace in the present as well? I noticed after I forgave people I then had to overcome the guarding and the mind trying to get me to remember what they did, instead of letting it all go. What do you think of that?

 

[Atman]

I know im fairly alone with my opinion but somatopsychic (is that the right word? i mean body related illnesses hurting/devastating the mind) is in my estimation way more prevalent and endemic than is psychosomatic disorders. I do not think ray peat is wrong. Atleast not fundamentally. Failing with "peaty" approaches can mean alot of things. Wrong dosage, wrong supplement, wrong medicine, wrong food for the individual situation.

Why do you believe the psychosomatic direction is currently less prominent? Do you really think that peoples diet of let's say the 1950s has changed more radically than peoples psychological environment compared to today?
Also, I don't think Ray has ever taken a stance concerning this question, but has merely emphasized the former option in interviews, because that's what people still have most control over. They can just stop using soybean oil and use butter instead, but they cannot easily change for example their working environment or the content of mass media.
He was probably also not aware of many of the new psychological influences because of his age and peculiar life style.

 

[Peatress]

First we had the weaponisation of psychology – still ongoing – now it’s the weaponisation of spirituality. At the height of mass poisoning – good timing.

 

[mostlylurking]

You mentioned that you’ve released the anger and are at peace in the present. Do you consider the guarding to be at peace in the present as well? I noticed after I forgave people I then had to overcome the guarding and the mind trying to get me to remember what they did, instead of letting it all go. What do you think of that?

I think that is foolish. It leaves me open to be blindsided by them and others like them. Highly functioning psychopaths are a lot more prevalent that you might imagine.

 

[chickasawlane]

I think that is foolish. It leaves me open to be blindsided by them and others like them. Highly functioning psychopaths are a lot more prevalent that you might imagine.

I don’t think I presented the question properly. I want to understand more what you mean by being guarded:

-is there emotion tied to it (such as feeling fear, anxiety etc.)

-Is it a physical reaction (ex. tension, freeze, elevated HR),

-OR is it a true discernment, where you are conscious of the warnings and are able to act accordingly, if needed?

 

[Ben.]

Why do you believe the psychosomatic direction is currently less prominent? Do you really think that peoples diet of let's say the 1950s has changed more radically than peoples psychological environment compared to today?
Also, I don't think Ray has ever taken a stance concerning this question, but has merely emphasized the former option in interviews, because that's what people still have most control over. They can just stop using soybean oil and use butter instead, but they cannot easily change for example their working environment or the content of mass media.
He was probably also not aware of many of the new psychological influences because of his age and peculiar life style.

I dont think it is less historically speaking. I also dont think the diet changed more so than the psychological environment. Thats not what i ment. But the psychological environment is not at fault for candida making candidalysin and acetaldehyde. Neither does it cause spirochetes/protozoa to go and interfere with your cells. Nor does it cause heavy metals to disrupt your functions.

What im trying to articulate is that your mind/spirituality is not seperate from your body. I'd go even so far to say that it stems from our body, so does our conciousness. And i know everyone who believes in classical religions or afterlife theorys flat out disagrees here with me.

In that sense i take the stance of most "mental" or "spiritual" problems that people think they have woudn't even exist if it wasnt for the impairments on their physiological ... cellular level.
And this issue even existed pre human fiddling in microbiology and chemistry. I woudn't romanticize the past either. But for some reason the idea that "the mind can heal anything with some good sleep/diet" is as strongly anchored into the majority of the peoples mind as is god for religious people or that vaccines have no flaws to the proud double-mask wearer. Yet observable truth and countless of people dying and suffering proves otherwise.

My apology about the part where i mentioned ray. I think before i wrote that i was looking at another thread where someone was ranting over "peaty" lifestyle not working and my writeup/thoughts got kinda mixed but i think it fits here aswell.

 

[mostlylurking]

OR is it a true discernment, where you are conscious of the warnings and are able to act accordingly, if needed?

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

Yes, you can be metabolically depressed, but if you identify with the thoughts that YOU are depressed, then no matter how great your stack is to help you metabolically, you’ve already identified with it and that’s a much larger issue.

"Not identifying with thoughts" is a metabolical/energetical/biological process and really not a spiritual/intellectual one. The more you try to create "space between thoughts" the more conflicted you are because more energy and attention are flowing in the wrong direction.

I guess the belief in God helps some people to "let things go". I think there is a phrase in the bible which says "Surrender your worries to God" or something along those lines. I think this is true and that confirms the old saying that you are not going to resolve your problems by finding an answer but by removing the question. And that removal of the question is not something "you" can do. It has to happen through your biology. IN SPITE OF all your methodologies and doctrines, not BECAUSE of them.

Too much methylation/methyl groups/DNMTS, for example, will create that kind of rigidness in biological functioning, too much inflammation, and too much stress hormones/not enough sugar and sugar reserves, just to name a few.

But in the end, there is an experiential and individual component. You have to have the courage to let yourself be consumed by fear and despair completely. To see it for what it is and to stop running away from it. One has to be consumed by it for months and years until he finally acknowledges those energies and chemical patterns. Only then can those patterns begin to dissolve. But they dissolve unimaginably quicker in a healthier body.

 

[chickasawlane]

But in the end, there is an experiential and individual component. You have to have the courage to let yourself be consumed by fear and despair completely. To see it for what it is and to stop running away from it. One has to be consumed by it for months and years until he finally acknowledges those energies and chemical patterns. Only then can those patterns begin to dissolve. But they dissolve unimaginably quicker in a healthier body.

I love what you said about facing the fear and despair. Personally I’ve ended up with better health from facing the things that have consumed me, than trying to run away from them and thinking that focusing purely on biological processes would magically sort everything out for me. This is what I mean by supplementing your way out of spiritual issues.

I was on 1200 mg daily of Lithium Carbonate for 5 years. It helped to give me some physiological stability, but the thoughts and emotions I allowed to over take me before I went on it didn’t just magically go away, even after 5 years. I had to learn to face what consumed me, and let it pass. I relied on being conscious of what was going on inside of to be able to separate from the wildness inside of me during manic episodes because I got myself into situations that I didn’t know how to get out of.

You make an interesting point that a healthier biology could resolve things quicker. I don’t agree with it, but I am open to it. I just think if I had the health I have now 5 years ago, I still think because of all the trauma, pain, and thoughts I held onto (such as the deep rooted resentment towards my mother and father) I still would have had to face all of that, which not everyone likes to do because it’s painful letting your ego die. That stuff drove me because ultimately I kept running away from taking responsibility and facing it, and kept developing new personalities and identities littered with vices on top of one another. If you’re not ready to let go of something, you won’t, no matter how good you feel.

 

[Atman]

I dont think it is less historically speaking. I also dont think the diet changed more so than the psychological environment. Thats not what i ment. But the psychological environment is not at fault for candida making candidalysin and acetaldehyde. Neither does it cause spirochetes/protozoa to go and interfere with your cells. Nor does it cause heavy metals to disrupt your functions.

When rats are restricted in movement (No pressure applied), they develop stomach uclers. What's your strict physiological explanation for that?
Why do athletes who win a match get a rise in testosterone even though they lived through the same physical experience during the match as the atheletes who lost?

How do we know that working in an open office 50 hours a week, doing menial tasks without understanding the greater picture of ones work, does not affect ones physiology in a negative way?
Our psychological environment has shifted dramatically in the last few decades, so I don't see how you can dismiss its effect on health.

But the psychological environment is not at fault for candida making candidalysin and acetaldehyde.

No, but the psychological envrionment can affect the physiology of the person, thereby making him susceptible for a candida overgrowth.

 

[Ben.]

When rats are restricted in movement (No pressure applied), they develop stomach uclers. What's your strict physiological explanation for that?
Why do athletes who win a match get a rise in testosterone even though they lived through the same physical experience during the match as the atheletes who lost?

How do we know that working in an open office 50 hours a week, doing menial tasks without understanding the greater picture of ones work, does not affect ones physiology in a negative way?
Our psychological environment has shifted dramatically in the last few decades, so I don't see how you can dismiss its effect on health.

My guess would be no or little movement can lead to slower transit times/constipation resulting in increased endotoxin load. Also not being able to move freely/being imprisoned causes intense stress raising the undesirable hormones excessevily in harmfull amounts. Thoose things are physical first and foremost. Stress ulcers/gastritis is a common diagnosis among humans yet most of the time the "professionals" fail to comprehensively exclude other factors leading to the ulcers dismissing far to many cofounding factors. Why is the organism incapable of dealing with stress in the first place would be my biggest question in so far to causing year- or lifelong lasting issues.

What is the rat or whatever organism fed? How does the environment look like? How quickly does it recover atfer the stressor is removed? Lacking nutrients? Sunlight? How stress resilient was the organism before inducing the symptoms (It matters alot how quickly the ulcers appear). Have a myriad of toxins/pathogens been carefully, reliably tested and excluded from the individual as possible causation? Was the test subject isolated from peers or was it restricted among its fellow test subjects? How well is the mucosal lining in general able to fend of assaults and repair? What does the immune system/reaction look like? Had it pre-existing conditions? Baseline body temperature? Hormone levels?

The amount of questions one could ask feels at times almost endless yet necessary (but who has the time, right? not the doctors) and unless one realy has covered every ground possible (which most didn't) then i dont understand why people are so readily jumping on the psychological/spiritual train.

No, but the psychological envrionment can affect the physiology of the person, thereby making him susceptible for a candida overgrowth.

I am not dismissing the psychological environment having an effect as seen in my first post. However i am denying it is the causation of chronic illness (most of them atleast) especially as it is at the moment where increasingly people even in their teens/early twenties are destined to suffer for their entire life with horrible ailments causing a hard decline in quality of life (and ironicly their ability/capablity to get their psychological environment in order). Thats not normal. Not for the fact that schools/work might suck and that the internet is a crazy place.
People have been trough extreme tragedy from war to famine to deadly disease, slavedom etc. I'd imagine these things causing severe psychological issues just aswell. Disfunctional families existed back then too. I am not sure why "we" think back then everything was so much better.
Horrific condescending hustler internet culture and a facist left wing technocratic extremism leading the world into a global dystopia is crazy indeed, however outside of news how much do you notice it in the real life/present moment of your own day to day experience?

I could turn the question around and ask: why would you think the increased globalism leading to toxins and pathogens (including man made modified ones) being able to polute and travel almost everywhere across the globe in combination to significant nutrient decline in the food supply having less of an effect than the psychological ones? Especially if these things mentioned have many mechanisms of directly ruining your hormones, immune response, neurotransmitters and are capable of altering your perception, how you feel at a given moment and even your behaviour?

The whole spiritual/psychosomatic explanation is way to often far far to abstract (meaning it makes little logical sense and offers not much if any solution other than paying money for psych meds and therapy/lifecoach sessions ) and from a sober perspective sounds as if it was pulled out of thin air to sound good and applicable. And if it indeed is as i say (which i cannot possibly know 100%) then all the psychosomatic approaches is a hard waste of time, money and energy of a person who is already compromised in likely all three of them. It usually also comes with gaslighting the sick/ill person in a way of insulting the individuals intelligence, personality and their experience. I've been there ... believing the mainstream approach of "fixing" ones psyche. A horrible mistake that was, but maybe a necessary one.