Bread, Why Avoid It?

More and more I hear people saying they gave up wheat, going gluten free, etc. I'm aware Ray Peat is also against wheat so I'm sure most here also avoid it.

Personally I have always ate bread. I gave it up for awhile when I did a paleo diet which turned out to be the worst choice ever for my health. For me, bread has always made me feel great, it actually makes my digestion better, I'm guessing because it keeps a certain bacteria very happy. I get wheat withdrawals after a week or so of not eating it. I have talked to a few others that have tried paleo and Peat and agree with me.

So why avoid it? Specifically white sourdough, GMO free bread without and seed oils? I believe that gluten has never been the source of GI issues, it just causes trouble when one has a leaky gut. The "anti nutrients" are mostly removed with a refined grain and actually bread can be a pretty nutrient dense food. And generally very low in PUFA. http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/bak ... cts/4841/2

So what do you guys think? Seems to me that a good sourdough would compliment a Peat diet very nicely by adding in a good base for more meals, one that is high in easily digest carbs, low in PUFA and inflammatory aminos, and most importantly, one that tastes freaking awesome!

Hello Zachs

I was thinking the same thing, I agree about the bread but for me some breads I can eat others no, I alsi think making your own bread is important or like you saud if one without stuff we dont want in it, like the oats I have a thread asking about that ( making oatmeal cookies) in the thread explains why in cookie form. Thank you for asking this question. FYI as of now I still eat bread not alit reason is still changing my way of eating and analyzing like you.

Thanks again beachbum

Dr. Ayers on the Cooling Inflammation blog posited recently that it is the trypsin inhibitors that cause celiac disease, not the gluten persay. Celiac, Gluten and Trypsin Inhibitors

Forget the gluten. Celiac is caused by trypsin inhibitors (ATI) that were increased in wheat fifty years ago to combat pests. Immune response to ATI spreads to include gluten and transglutaminase that perpetuates the disease. Celiac is an unexpected consequence of traditional plant breeding that could be fixed with GMO approaches.

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Okay, forget his last sentence there
The basic Peat viewpoint is that fructose is a superior carbohydrate to glucose. Also starches in general are not as well digested (perabsorption and all that), hence why Peat recommends the very traditional ways of preparation of grains that basically pre-digest some of the starch over time before it is consumed. I think sourdough would qualify as long as it is traditional sourdough, and not a chemically enhanced process.

Hi LucyL

The thing with me and maybe Zachs is if I dont have a complex carb like bread I dont get satisfied not even potatoes something about breads and pasta stop me from overeating, fats dont help much and no not addiction.

Thank you
beachbum

Interesting, Lucy. Thanks! I really think gluten is insanely overhyped. Im wondering if refined grains in general have less of these inflammatory agents. Whole grain breads definitely cause me digestive stress but white flours cause no issues just like white rice.

Totally, beachbum. I eat a ton of fruit/juice and simple sugars but if my diet does not have some sort of grain based product, i find it very hard to stay satisfied. I get bored with eating and feel withdrawelish until i get a fix. :) im of the belief that if your body craves something natural, its probably best to give it that.

Also yes, i buy a local sourdough french bread thats makes it traditionally without any oils. Sometimes i also eat soba noodles thats only ingredient is heirloom wheat.

I don't think gluten is the problem so much as yeast. I can eat things like matzo without trouble - but if I eat bread made with yeast, it causes massive issues with bloating and is just not fun.

So I started making my own sourdough. It's really easy - I adapted a method of making it if you want to make your own bread without additives.

Also, organic flour should be superior to conventional because it is not enriched and the gluten content should not be as high.

My impression, but could be wrong on these, is that there are a couple of reasons why bread is not the best staple for some people.

1. Obviously for people who have coeliac disease, it causes serious damage and is better replaced with non-gluten foods.

2. Antinutrients that hinder the digestive system from extracting nutrients. Using white flour helps quite a bit, but does not completely eliminate this issue (eg trypsin inhibitor Lucy mentioned - this one is new to me, thanks Lucy). Slow sour dough or yeast leavening helps with this too, making some of the nutrients more available (there were recent posts referring to Peat on this).

3. The gluten molecule takes a bit to break down. If you have a strong metabolism and strong digestion (ie, optimal pH and producing plenty of the right digestive enzymes), you may have no trouble with that. If your digestion is not strong enough to break it down well, it can damage the gut lining, and reduce the effectiveness of the gut barrier. It may be doing this before you get to blood-test diagnosed coeliac, which I think happens after the gut barrier is compromised enough to let some of the gluten and related molecules through. Again, slow leavening may break the proteins down more, and make the digestion easier, making it less hazardous.

4. It is relatively high in phosphorus and low in calcium, magnesium and other minerals that are more abundant in fruits, roots and tubers. Mitigation: make sure to balance this extra phosphorus with other rich sources of calcium, magnesium, etc.

5. Starch. Some people do better avoiding starch. Peat recommends emphasising sugars over starches, and for people with bad gut bacteria balance, he recommends avoiding starch altogether. I don't hear him saying everyone should always avoid starch completely - again, more of an individual case by case issue.

6. For some people the leavening, rather than the wheat, may be an issue. As Lindsay says above, yeast can cause problems for some people. I think yeasts contain estrogens - maybe the quantity is an issue for some people who already struggle with estrogen excess. Some kinds of fermentation can produce significant levels of histamine - I wonder if this could be an issue with sour doughs for some people. I'm speculating here - not on solid ground.

Most foods have pros and cons. As with many foods, I think how much it makes sense to eat or replace bread depends on the individual and the other alternatives, and what you can do to mitigate the downsides.

I have mostly but not completely avoided wheat for many years since a naturopath suggested I go a couple of weeks without gluten and see if my health improved. My migraines were unaffected, but my digestion clearly improved after about 3 days. I still eat some from time to time, but if I eat a large meal (eg a good-sized bowl of pasta) I can still expect mild diarrhea to follow. So I assume it may be hard on my gut. At the time I replaced it with gluten-free grains, which did not produce diarrhea. At various times I used lots of rice, buckwheat, millet, qinoa, sometimes oats (borderline). I couldn't imagine how I wouldn't starve if I cut bread etc. In the last couple of years, esp since finding Peat and being convinced that sugar is not the evil I thought it was, and finding I have some tolerance for milk, I have been eating a lot less grains altogether. Unlike you, I usually find that potatoes (coconut oil-baked chips) fill the satisfaction spot pretty well, though not the convenience factor. I used to live on starch; now I eat a little now and then, but not every day.

If I were you, I wouldn't necessarily give it up completely immediately, especially if it is an important source of nourishment in your current diet. I'd build up your repertoire of alternatives. I would check on intake of phosphorus, calcium, magnesium, etc, and adjust diet accordingly. I would take a break from wheat (or possibly all grains) for a 3-4 days now and then, sometime when you can do it without compromising calories and satisfaction too much, and see if it makes any difference. Then be guided by that.

I think there is a danger for some people of cutting so many important sources of sustenance out of their diet that they just don't get enough food, and this has it's own known dangers associated with it. So this may be one of the factors to take into account. Not sure that this would be Peat's approach - my guess is it would depend on the nature and seriousness of your health issues.

Just like Lindsay mentioned, the sourdough method involves a considerable long fermentation. But it can be a good thing..

I seldom eat it for the reasons mentioned above, but I bake for the family and my take on the subject is, if you're going to eat it, make it the most nutritious kind possible. The quote from RP in the thread ' easy no knead bread recipe ' sums it up and gave me the impression that the 12 hour process unlocks quite a lot of nutrition as well as minimizing the problems with phytic acid and gluten.
Re sourdough vs yeast I'm not sure how big the lactic acid issue is.
On commercial bread the basic kinds available here all have soya added or should I say adulterated. What is soya doing in bread ? That fact, and an easy recipe, is why I bake nearly every day.

Oh man sourdough bread with cheese..
I've been eating a bit of whole grain rye bread lately but it's definitely not as awesome as the good old refined wheat stuff. :) Maybe i'll ditch the whole grains. They always make me feel somewhat gross.. And they aren't nearly as appetizing as white bread, white rice etc.
I have actually skipped a meal many times because the only carb i had was whole grain bread.
Eating whole grains feels like i'm one step away from eating bark or sand or something..
But yeah, no problems with white sourdough. Great food.

I asked RP about this about starch and all that. He said it took him 2 years to get away from starch. What he noticed was lower stress, could go longer without meals without causing stress reactions and some more stuff that i dont remember as i write this

superhuman said:

I asked RP about this about starch and all that. He said it took him 2 years to get away from starch. What he noticed was lower stress, could go longer without meals without causing stress reactions and some more stuff that i dont remember as i write this

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Starch is not an optimal food. It can be eaten but watch out for the symptoms. A lot of people here encourage others to eat starch even though that might hinder their progress in retaining their metabolism. When I quit bread, my temperature has increased. Starchy food might slow down metabolism. I gain weight on starch, which supports the notion starch is not a very pro metabolism food.

Bread is the worst of them all for thyroid health. This is based on my n=1 experiment.

@milk_lover do you gain weight from starch or all the other foods/macros that comes with it? alot of people increase their total calorie intake when they include starch and ofc then u gain weight/fat

superhuman said:

@milk_lover do you gain weight from starch or all the other foods/macros that comes with it? alot of people increase their total calorie intake when they include starch and ofc then u gain weight/fat

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I will give you an example. Lunch time: I eat half kg of lamb meat with two cokes in setting #1. I eat half kg of lamb meat with white bread in setting #2. The calories from white bread is almost comparable with the calories from the two cokes. Now comes dinner, I can satisfy myself with light food like fruits, milk, gelatin, cheese etc., if I do setting #1. However, when I do setting #2, I tend to get super hungry at night and light food does not become an option. Only starch/bread satisfies my hunger at night. What I found is that I cannot overeat simple sugars. I have a sense of control over my calories/appetite. My body gives me signal to stop if you know what I mean. That's not the case with starch. There is a chasing non-closed loop to feed myself when I do a starch-based diet to feel normal. When I quit starch, I get a sense of security; I can go out to places for several hours where there is no food and still feel normal. I get hungry eventually but it's not as stressful.

@milk_lover thats a good answer and makes sense. Cool to see that you understand the whole context

superhuman said:

I asked RP about this about starch and all that. He said it took him 2 years to get away from starch. What he noticed was lower stress, could go longer without meals without causing stress reactions and some more stuff that i dont remember as i write this

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Yeah. But have you ever tasted fresh toast with butter and jam? It's similar to an actual mouth orgasm #sinfulEMOJI#

Pardon me if this has been linked before, but would somebody who has/knows of a Peat friendly sourdough bread recipe be kind enough to share?

I don't plan on binging on starch (I do better without it), but nothing wrong with a treat occasionally. And man, do I love bread.

On the cronometer, it is very high in selenium, B1, B2, B3 and folate. But also iron (which I assume is fortified iron). So, the main reason I have no interest in buying commercially sold sourdough bread.

BobbyDukes said:

Yeah. But have you ever tasted fresh toast with butter and jam? It's similar to an actual mouth orgasm #sinfulEMOJI#

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Yeah. Life without starch is boring. Also, when i don't eat starch i loose my appetite for sweet stuff. Makes it hard to eat enough carbs, and i hate to force the fruit, juice, coke etc. in my mouth.
This whole not eating starch thing just feels so... unnatural..