Why Is There So Much Soluble Fibre In Human Breast Milk?

Such_Saturation · Jul 28, 2015

What about phytic acid, etc.

EnoreeG · Jul 28, 2015

Stuart said:
@ EnoreeG
Amazingly detailed comment once again! Thanks.
I actually had no idea how anti bacteria SCD is. The idea that 'overgrowth' of bacteria in the colon is what causes SIBO - rampant bacteria s q u e e z i n g back ( through sheer pressure force of 'overgrowth' ) through the ileocecal valve to cause havoc in the S.I., where they have no business, strikes me as simplistic nonsense. That article by the gastroenterologist I linked to went into some of the complexities of the mechanisms used to control bacterial numbers in the S.I. It seems to be a highly sophisticated toolkit of various measures to make the S.I. inhospitable to bacterial overgrowth (pH, antibacterial chemical measures etc. ) But I did get the impression from your comment that you think it is mostly just forward movement by a high fiber diet through the ileocecal valve that stops the bacteria in the colon 'straying' out of their territory. I do think there's a lot more to it than that. Mainly because they are so close: S.I. small bacterial populations then suddenly, WHAM, the colon - all bacteria.
A healthy gut must be able to make the S.I so inhospitable to bacterial ( and yeasts/ fungii as well of course) overgrowths. And having a dysbiotic gut means those natural control measures don't function properly.
It's so easy to blame the canary in the coal mine - fiber- for the problem rather than just being an impossible to ignore diagnostic tool.
The SCD diet seems to be consigning people to a life of avoiding certain foods without ever, as Amazoniac pointed out, fixing the underlying cause.
I can't help wondering if strict Peating does exactly the same.

Actually Stuart, I sort of zoomed thru the link you provided to get the gist of it without looking at every point. I agree there is more to the issue of microbial migration. I'll go back and read more there. Yes, I know there is the pH factor in the SI. As you say though, there is more. Did anyone mention yet the fact that if there is no movement downwards, not only does this allow movement upwards of bacteria, but it also (the fecal compaction and immobility in the lower gut) prevents clearing in a timely manner of the SI? This by itself will give sugars, and especially starches, extra time to ferment. If there's no where to go because there's a full house already on the other side of the ileocaecal door, then minimal bacteria or not, you get a growing clan and fermentation where there should be none.

This is probably why, for someone suddenly amping up the fiber, in a body that has a virtually blocked large intestine due to no fiber aiding motility, the latest and newest fiber meal will cause great stress and distress in the SI. Like having already a traffic jam due to rush hour, then a sporting event tries to empty a hot, excited crowd of fans out onto the same boulevard. You get "fermentation" in the stadium parking lot. It's important to build up to this gradually. Get the motility started first, then increase the volume, little by little.

The idea that 'overgrowth' of bacteria in the colon is what causes SIBO - rampant bacteria s q u e e z i n g back ( through sheer pressure force of 'overgrowth' ) through the ileocecal valve to cause havoc in the S.I., where they have no business

Are you a graphic artist? I'd love to see this statement put into a progressive comic strip, say, a la Dunesbury or Garfield. I want to vividly see that "squeezing", just like Popeye "squeezing" that can of spinach. (Yes, youngsters, I realize this is an incomprehensible simile). :imsorry

But you can search for "Popeye and spinach can images".

Such_Saturation · Jul 28, 2015

Is there some kind of... bacteria fetish we should know about?

InChristAlone · Jul 28, 2015

EnoreeG said:
Actually Stuart, I sort of zoomed thru the link you provided to get the gist of it without looking at every point. I agree there is more to the issue of microbial migration. I'll go back and read more there. Yes, I know there is the pH factor in the SI. As you say though, there is more. Did anyone mention yet the fact that if there is no movement downwards, not only does this allow movement upwards of bacteria, but it also (the fecal compaction and immobility in the lower gut) prevents clearing in a timely manner of the SI? This by itself will give sugars, and especially starches, extra time to ferment. If there's no where to go because there's a full house already on the other side of the ileocaecal door, then minimal bacteria or not, you get a growing clan and fermentation where there should be none.

This is probably why, for someone suddenly amping up the fiber, in a body that has a virtually blocked large intestine due to no fiber aiding motility, the latest and newest fiber meal will cause great stress and distress in the SI. Like having already a traffic jam due to rush hour, then a sporting event tries to empty a hot, excited crowd of fans out onto the same boulevard. You get "fermentation" in the stadium parking lot. It's important to build up to this gradually. Get the motility started first, then increase the volume, little by little.

Wow good description of what happens to someone who is all constipated! This happens to my son regularly because he with holds his poops for days out of fear. Then he starts getting a lot of gas build up I imagine because food is fermenting instead of moving through. We have tried everything but regular laxatives to get him to poop everyday since laxatives are harsh.

Peata · Jul 28, 2015

EnoreeG said:
I can totally understand all this. At least you got some butter!

Here's the insidiously good thing about fiber, as long as it ISN'T a single-fiber supplement or something else manufactured:

When you eat fiber, you are getting MICRONUTRIENTS from the food containing the fiber.

Because it is a whole food. So you're getting a balance of many, many things! Certain, HIGHLY RESTRICTIVE DIETS are not going to do this. So then you need to supplement. But supplements aren't formulated, either as "multiples" or as "individual items" to actually compliment the foods you eat, and give you balance. The only way to get CLOSE to a healthy balance is to eat a variety of whole foods and see what makes you feel healthy. I have a feeling that people who radiate health do this routinely, but it's just my gut feeling because I do it and a few other healthy people I know do it also. No proof.

Sure, you can do this with a low-fiber diet to start with, if you are sensitive, but still, eat as great a variety as possible and eat whole foods.

So the converse way of looking at it is: If you eat a diet designed to minimize fiber, you TEND to be dieting to reduce micronutrients, or at best, you seriously distort which ones you have in ample amounts, and which you remain short of.

I'm not sure a low fiber diet means you won't get adequate nutrition... because you won't have the intestinal irritation that can come from certain types of fiber that promotes increased cortisol, serotonin and endotoxin. Plus toxins such as phytic acid and lectin to name a couple. So I guess you have to decide if the nutrition value of say, beans, is worth the effort of the body to break it down to get past these toxins and stress chemicals that eating the beans cause. When there are foods easier on digestion that supply good nutrition out there.

I'm not saying that I personaly do or do not eat fiber of various amounts and kinds, I'm just throwing that out there because I'm not sure a low fiber diet has to mean reduced micronutrients.

Amazoniac · Jul 28, 2015

Janelle, I don't think that this is what happens..

Fermentation occurs very fast. People who experience bloating knows exactly what it feels like.
Sometimes in a matter of minutes.

Rant non-sense time: generation of gas occurs in everyone, the issue is what you do to it, what type and where. It's normal to absorb gas in the intestines, it difuses in the blood, hence those timed measuring breath tests: they show up very quickly in exhaled air. Bloated people have a hard time with propelling it. Since we are bipeds, and our intestines descend, there are small chambers all along to help to get rid of the gas, otherwise there's no way to move it. I suspect that there's also the factor of the type of gas that is created, just speculation. Just as an exampke, I suppose that the organism is not willing to take too much of a useless/detrimental gas, unless there's a lot of pressure and it'll probably absorb some to help to get rid of pboythewildseducer the excess. So, if for some reason you have impaired motility, pathogen overgrowth, it can leave you with a lot of problems. There's also the problem with improper digestion. This leaves a lot of fats unabsorbed and this also impairs the diffusion of gases, and digestion of fats/lipase secretion is the first to be affected in protein-energy malnutrition. That also favors overgrowth of eukaryotes and it's a complete mess. Oh, there's the possibility of fats being generated in the process and for the reasion mentioned you are not able to absorb them. I don't know if we have receptors for that in the SI, like in the LI; so it all might contribute to bloating.

Amazoniac · Jul 28, 2015

I'm giving prizes for those that can decipher my posts, so many typos.

Forgot to mention that in most tests that I've seen in gastroenterology journals, the volume of gas generated by those with GI problems and those that were healthy were the same. The difference was that in healthy people they propell huge volumes without any problem or even discomfort, contrary to the sick volunteers.

I've also seen some experiments that showed weaker ileocecal valves in patients with problems in the SI. They measured that by infusing air and blocking the other end. I don't think that it's a major contributor to overgrowths in the SI though..

EnoreeG · Jul 28, 2015

Stuart said:
@ EnoreeG
Amazingly detailed comment once again! Thanks.
I actually had no idea how anti bacteria SCD is. The idea that 'overgrowth' of bacteria in the colon is what causes SIBO - rampant bacteria s q u e e z i n g back ( through sheer pressure force of 'overgrowth' ) through the ileocecal valve to cause havoc in the S.I., where they have no business, strikes me as simplistic nonsense. That article by the gastroenterologist I linked to went into some of the complexities of the mechanisms used to control bacterial numbers in the S.I. It seems to be a highly sophisticated toolkit of various measures to make the S.I. inhospitable to bacterial overgrowth (pH, antibacterial chemical measures etc. ) But I did get the impression from your comment that you think it is mostly just forward movement by a high fiber diet through the ileocecal valve that stops the bacteria in the colon 'straying' out of their territory. I do think there's a lot more to it than that. Mainly because they are so close: S.I. small bacterial populations then suddenly, WHAM, the colon - all bacteria.
A healthy gut must be able to make the S.I so inhospitable to bacterial ( and yeasts/ fungii as well of course) overgrowths. And having a dysbiotic gut means those natural control measures don't function properly.
It's so easy to blame the canary in the coal mine - fiber- for the problem rather than just being an impossible to ignore diagnostic tool.
The SCD diet seems to be consigning people to a life of avoiding certain foods without ever, as Amazoniac pointed out, fixing the underlying cause.
I can't help wondering if strict Peating does exactly the same.

OK, I'm now getting to every line of the Duncan Crow information on inulin. The one on Probiotic and Prebiotic References was great reading, and it had this subdued little statement near the end:

Of course, many people still posess the character to be followers, but increasingly many are waking up and an increasingly free-thinking majority will use this information to think for themselves. This is for you.

I liked that. "the character to be followers". It's just interesting how different people chose to write their scripts.

EnoreeG · Jul 28, 2015

Peata said:
EnoreeG said:

I can totally understand all this. At least you got some butter!

Here's the insidiously good thing about fiber, as long as it ISN'T a single-fiber supplement or something else manufactured:

When you eat fiber, you are getting MICRONUTRIENTS from the food containing the fiber.

Because it is a whole food. So you're getting a balance of many, many things! Certain, HIGHLY RESTRICTIVE DIETS are not going to do this. So then you need to supplement. But supplements aren't formulated, either as "multiples" or as "individual items" to actually compliment the foods you eat, and give you balance. The only way to get CLOSE to a healthy balance is to eat a variety of whole foods and see what makes you feel healthy. I have a feeling that people who radiate health do this routinely, but it's just my gut feeling because I do it and a few other healthy people I know do it also. No proof.

Sure, you can do this with a low-fiber diet to start with, if you are sensitive, but still, eat as great a variety as possible and eat whole foods.

So the converse way of looking at it is: If you eat a diet designed to minimize fiber, you TEND to be dieting to reduce micronutrients, or at best, you seriously distort which ones you have in ample amounts, and which you remain short of.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure a low fiber diet means you won't get adequate nutrition... because you won't have the intestinal irritation that can come from certain types of fiber that promotes increased cortisol, serotonin and endotoxin. Plus toxins such as phytic acid and lectin to name a couple. So I guess you have to decide if the nutrition value of say, beans, is worth the effort of the body to break it down to get past these toxins and stress chemicals that eating the beans cause. When there are foods easier on digestion that supply good nutrition out there.

I'm not saying that I personaly do or do not eat fiber of various amounts and kinds, I'm just throwing that out there because I'm not sure a low fiber diet has to mean reduced micronutrients.

"Not sure" is a good starting point Peata.

I was saying "Foods with fiber are foods with micronutrients" as opposed to many foods lacking fiber, and as opposed to supplements from which it's very hard to get a balance of micronutrients as you would from fresh, whole foods.

There are thousands of things though that I am also unsure of. It's a good starting point for me also.

The main thing I see different in our approaches on this is that you specify the negative side of foods with fiber, and I see the positives. Hmm.... I guess it is our choice of emphasis?

Amazoniac · Jul 28, 2015

Increases in serotonin seem to be correlated with high influx of endotoxins. One of its effects is to increase vascular permeability. It's a whole cascade of problems..

EnoreeG · Jul 28, 2015

Vascular permeability or gut endothelial permeability? Vascular as the endothelium of the vascular system or otherwise?

Outside of that question - a statement. I think we discussed on this thread [what haven't we discussed?] at one time that many of us thought that:

Endotoxins came from pathogenic microbes that, in a healthy person will be a very small subset of the microbiota, and thus will be producing a very small amount of endotoxins, as in lipopolysaccharides, and thus there is no worries in that situation about serotonin, etc. on down the cascade.

But others of us thought that:

The more the bacterial bulk, the more the resultant endotoxins, thus the more serotonin and so on down the cascade resulting in more threat, more stress on the immune system, etc.

Does anyone else remember that phase? Did we settle that? Or only to each of us a different conclusion? Are we making progress, or going once more around the circle? (Not that I want to get off the ride, it's fun, and I learn more each time around!). :roll:

Or is it time for a mid-term review?

Amazoniac · Jul 28, 2015

It's much harder to figure how to deal with issues and bring back health than it's to determine what's healthy or not.
I'm questioning that endotoxins are a real concern for those with GI problems.

I created a poll because I'm genuinely curious to know if someone already had success with an antibiotic treatment for GI infections..

Giraffe · Jul 28, 2015

Amazoniac said:
I created a poll because I'm genuinely curious to know if someone already had success with an antibiotic treatment for GI infections..

If you want to know about results of antibiotic treatment for GI infections you need to make it clear in that thread.

narouz · Jul 28, 2015

narouz said:
HDD said:

http://memoriediangelina.com/2010/03/21/carciofi-alla-romana/#.VbQy69m9Kc1

Roman style artichoke (in English)

Click to expand...

Wow.
And that's exactly how Such described it. :)

Just wanted to note that I made and ate that recipe.
It was really good--thanks Such and HDD. :)

But it was one of the most labor intensive things I've ever cooked!
I think maybe they sell mostly big ones that are tough in the regular stores here in USA.
I needed something more like a bandsaw to hack through those leaves or petals or whatever they are!
I'm serious.

I prefer the way I learned when I was young--
just steam for about half an hour,
then peel off the petals one by one,
dip in butter garlic lemon and scrape off the edible part with your teeth.
Then when you get all the way down,
clean out that strange pith fiber...I guess it's what become the flower--
and eat the base.

oxidation_is_normal · Jul 28, 2015

Giraffe said:
Amazoniac said:

I created a poll because I'm genuinely curious to know if someone already had success with an antibiotic treatment for GI infections..

Click to expand...

If you want to know about results of antibiotic treatment for GI infections you need to make it clear in that thread.

This is known in general medicine. No need to sample a small subset of the population (a.k.a. raypeatforum.com). People get GI infections - and infections of all sorts - cleared up using antibiotics...

narouz · Jul 28, 2015

Amazoniac said:
It's much harder to figure how to deal with issues and bring back health than it's to determine what's healthy or not.
I'm questioning that endotoxins are a real concern for those with GI problems.

I created a poll because I'm genuinely curious to know if someone already had success with an antibiotic treatment for GI infections..

I'm enjoying the discussion, you guys.
I'm trying Stuart's fiber approach now.
I'd been implementing Enoree's for a while.
But Amazoniac...I don't know what pboypoweredbykundalini your approach to gut health is.
Heck, if you lay it out, I'll likely try it!
I'm very gullible. :lol:

[bbvideo=560,315]https://screen.yahoo.com/colon-blow-000000540.html[/bbvideo]

tara · Jul 28, 2015

If you are wanting to feed your gas-producing bacteria, I've not struck anything more effective than soup made from jerusalem (f)artichokes. :)

narouz · Jul 28, 2015

tara said:
If you are wanting to feed your gas-producing bacteria, I've not struck anything more effective than soup made from jerusalem (f)artichokes. :)

Stuart · Jul 28, 2015

tara said:
If you are wanting to feed your gas-producing bacteria, I've not struck anything more effective than soup made from jerusalem (f)artichokes. :)

Just curious whether the gas you experienced was from your colon (easy to pass - probably inconvenient - but not bloating type gas in your S.I.) ?
My favourite gut bugs are the gas eating ones. Your colon may be a gas factory , but you'd never know.

TMI, my whole life until starting this fiber/SBO eating experiment my farts smelt exactly like my Father''s Particularly after I'd been eating onions. Familiar, so in a strange way comforting, but unpleasant nevertheless.
About 3 months in, while I was still farting (not SIBO/bloating gas mind you), I gradually became aware that my farts smelt strangely unfamiliar, and increasingly less offensive. Now I just don't fart very often. and when I do, the faint still unfamiliarly inoffensive smell is like an unmistakable signal that all's well.
No idea of the why's and where fors , but it was a really interesting transition.
Jerusalem artichokes have a lot of short chain inulin. Whereas globe artchokes (the above ground ones) have the longest chain inulin you can get (even longer than Orafti HP).
What's been your experience with eating globe artichokes?

Stuart · Jul 28, 2015

@ EnoreeG
Re the Duncan Crow line you quoted:

Duncan Crow said:
Of course, many people still posess the character to be followers, but increasingly many are waking up and an increasingly free-thinking majority will use this information to think for themselves. This is for you.

Although I agree with his views about prebiotics, I think it isn't helpful to cast aspertions on contrary views as being a 'follower' mindset. It isn't conducive to constructive discussion. It's a bit like Such_ saying that I ' ... always see things in black and white'. I felt like replying that it actually depends if they're in colour, but thought better of buying into even mild ad hominem.
Somebody with a contrary opinion will always think you are a 'blind' follower, don't you think?

The most useful thing I've ever heard about subscribing to any one guru as your philosophical saviour is the Buddhist adage : 'If you meet the buddha on the road, kill him'. But even that is a bit ultra violent for my blood.

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Why Is There So Much Soluble Fibre In Human Breast Milk?

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