Obesity is estrogen-driven; Chronic fasting burns mostly muscle, not fat

[BobbyJackson]

He also looks more feminized in the latter picture...it's insanity.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

.

He also looks more feminized in the latter picture...it's insanity.

And an unhealthy pale, kinda creepy looking to me. His lips had more color and were fuller in his before pic.

 

[haidut]

He also looks more feminized in the latter picture...it's insanity.

Chronic fasting can drive the feminization (in men) and masculinization (in women) by incrreasing circulating fats. Eating a low-carb/high-fat diet only makes the situation worse. Not sure if you have noticed, but older (65+) males and older females look very much alike, sex-wise. That's what unopposed estrogen does to both sexes, when the protective testosterone (and to a lesser degree, progesterone) is low in males and the progesterone is low in females.

Fat increases estrogen synthesis, even in menopausal females; glucose lowers it

A fascinating study, which provides a number of important findings and insights. First, the study shows that fat (from diet or lipolysis) drives estrogen production not only in fat cells (which has been known for decades, even by mainstream medicine), but also in other organs typically not...

raypeatforum.com

@Rinse & rePeat

 

[sunny]

View attachment 59437
Yeah I am not impressed.

Those eyes do not look like eyes of a healthy person.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Not sure if you have noticed, but older (65+) males and older females look very much alike, sex-wise. That's what unopposed estrogen does to both sexes, when the protective testosterone (and to a lesser degree, progesterone) is low in males and the progesterone is low in females.

Fat increases estrogen synthesis, even in menopausal females; glucose lowers it

A fascinating study, which provides a number of important findings and insights. First, the study shows that fat (from diet or lipolysis) drives estrogen production not only in fat cells (which has been known for decades, even by mainstream medicine), but also in other organs typically not...

raypeatforum.com

@Rinse & rePeat

Now that you mention it I suppose both sexes do tend to look similar. This is interesting. Also in the post you linked the stomach being a producer of estrogen is something I did not know. I might have to rethink my butter consumption..

“The study below shows that the stomach is not only also a steroidogenic organ, but a major contributor to serum levels of estrogen. I think this is the first study that implicates an organ other than the ovaries as major source of serum estradiol (E2) in females. Second, the study demonstrated that the cells lining the stomach preferentially synthesize estrogen (and not other steroids) and that serum triglycerides (derived from dietary fat or lipolysis) are both the trigger for such synthesis and also serve as the preferred (maybe even obligate?) energy source for those cells to produce estradiol.”

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Those eyes do not look like eyes of a healthy person.

His eyes seems to have lost the life, twinkle, that they had in his before picture.

 

[Regina]

This is my exact experience Haidut writes about here. In my late 30’s I discovered the false hope of the Ketogenic diet and Fasting. After 6 months I was looking the skinniest I had been since my senior highschool year. Amazing! No, Dehydration! A year later endless health problems started. And I would go in and out of trying keto fasting again and again.
Here is the real problem that compounds as the psychology of what Haidut writes about plays out in your head. You feel really good fasting with good seeming mental clarity. This is because your cortisol is running the show. So you really feel like you’re doing the write thing. That’s a huge problem. The thing that is tearing down your tissues is giving you mental clarity and of course lower endo-toxin from never eating anything is great. But then you start getting leg cramps at night. Then you start getting foot cramps in the day. Then you boost electrolytes and eat more fat. Then you start loosing sleep. So then you start taking freezing cold showers. That’s fun and gives more mental clarity so then you cut out all plants from the diet. Then your thyroid starts to hurt!!! And you think it’s a soar throat! So then you Fast for longer! Then you start taking terrible supplements that you think help you detox! Whatever the hell that means. So this clear mind you get leads you down a rabbit hole right towards fatty liver, terribly hypothyroid, food craving.
I had a stabbing pain in my throat for an entire year. Right where my thyroid is. And all I could think to do was eat less frequently and eat more steak. And buy more supplements.
The harsh reality is that no one person in this country doesn’t have pounds of PUFA making up there bodies tissues. So if you want to fast you are putting yourself on a very high Pufa diet. It’s that simple.

Yep. And not just so called "mental clarity" but wow, my pain tolerance is super human.
Delusion feels good for a while.

 

[Regina]

Yeah I think his before photo looks healthier and far more attractive. His eyes are tiny like, Kenny Rogers, plastic surgery.

View attachment 59438

Phew. So creepy.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Another dent in the fasting armour

Hardly. All of you are just coping and seeking confirmation bias to confirm that fasting is bad. When it’s actually the best thing to do for serious weight loss. It’s undeniable.
Many, many positive success stories and they rarely regain the weight.
Anyone that denies the benefits is simply ignorant or has bad intentions.

Lose muscle mass? What muscle mass? People who do not workout hardly have any muscle mass to lose.
Stop with the cope. Fasting is the best intervention for weight loss. Period. And I’m not saying it’s good for overall health.

Even @Dapose confirmed that it works for weight loss.

 

[Regina]

Now that you mention it I suppose both sexes do tend to look similar. This is interesting. Also in the post you linked the stomach being a producer of estrogen is something I did not know. I might have to rethink my butter consumption..

“The study below shows that the stomach is not only also a steroidogenic organ, but a major contributor to serum levels of estrogen. I think this is the first study that implicates an organ other than the ovaries as major source of serum estradiol (E2) in females. Second, the study demonstrated that the cells lining the stomach preferentially synthesize estrogen (and not other steroids) and that serum triglycerides (derived from dietary fat or lipolysis) are both the trigger for such synthesis and also serve as the preferred (maybe even obligate?) energy source for those cells to produce estradiol.”

Maybe glycine, along with everything else Peaty, can help with too much estrogen synthesis from the stomach.
I'm preaching to the choir with you though, Rinse. You probably are the most dedicated to homemade gelatin than all of us here.

 

[BobbyJackson]

Hardly. All of you are just coping and seeking confirmation bias to confirm that fasting is bad. When it’s actually the best thing to do for serious weight loss. It’s undeniable.
Many, many positive success stories and they rarely regain the weight.
Anyone that denies the benefits is simply ignorant or has bad intentions.

Lose muscle mass? What muscle mass? People who do not workout hardly have any muscle mass to lose.
Stop with the cope. Fasting is the best intervention for weight loss. Period. And I’m not saying it’s good for overall health.

Even @Dapose confirmed that it works for weight loss.

You can seek confirmation bias on any side of any issue.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Maybe glycine, along with everything else Peaty, can help with too much estrogen synthesis from the stomach.
I'm preaching to the choir with you though, Rinse. You probably are the most dedicated to homemade gelatin than all of us here.

I have been dedicated to the homemade bone broths lately Regina, the last month or so, everyday and sometimes twice a day, boiled chicken wings for their skin and even pork rinds, and I do see a difference in my skin being more supple and plump.

 

[Elchupanibrain]

What compounds would be the most effective at reducing estrogen strongly and helping to reduce belly fat as a result? I also believe that cortisol is linked to belly fat? So I think you'd need a good combination of strong cortisol inhibition and estrogen reduction to be able to bring it down. Combined maybe with another agent to reduce endotoxin in the gut.

Bump

 

[Dapose]

I have been lean my whole life. On Keto I lost a lot of muscle that I didn’t know I had. And I was a functional movement guy. All my limbs were always tight so I would just constantly stretch and do animal movements. Kind of perpetually working out. I remember swimming and just being like wtf with these tight muscles? Once you get severally dehydrated and hypothyroid… We’ll here’s how Ray puts it.

“When hypothyroidism is severe, it can cause myopathy, in which the painful swollen condition involves the leakage of muscle proteins (especially myoglobin) into the blood stream, allowing it to be diagnosed by a blood test. The combination of hypothyroidism with fatigue and stress can lead to the breakdown and death of muscle cells, rhabdomyolysis.”

Heart and hormones

invoking the discredited 'wear and tear' theory of aging, could have many unexpected harmful consequences. It would reinforce existing misconceptions about heart functions.

raypeat.com

That’s just not the way to go. I think the Keto tread is still around because the marketing is still working, most people are just eating bull**** supermarket products that have marketing on them that say keto so they tell themselves they’ve been doing keto for 6months or 12 or whatever. They started eating bacon regularly and started buying butter and full fat yogurt and they have a bag of avocados in their fridge so they’re “Keto.” But they are cheating 10 times a week and probably have zero ketones in there blood or urine.
It’s a marketing trend.
I’m Biased towards being happy laughing a lot feeling strong sleeping like a rock and being able to work all day and help others.
Being biased towards loosing weight and or living longer then average is contributing to a culture of looking out for yourself. Basically LA California Hollywood culture.

 

[MikeyFitz]

Not sure there is much good doing resistance exercise while fasting, since IGF-1/insulin would be low in that period and without them amino acids would go towards gluconeogenesis instead of recycled back into muscle protein synthesis. Also, cortisol rises while fasting and any exertion, even pure concentric exercise, while fasting would drive cortisol even higher. So, unless the person has at least a sweet drink or something, the exercise would make things worse in most cases. Ray suggested drinking a fluid with electrolytes as those inhibit muscle breakdown, but so far the only confirmed anti-catabolic agents I have seen shown to work in humans during fasting are the anabolic/anticatabolic steroids.

Agree 100%, Georgi.

I have been training in the gym for over 45 years and have been around a number of professional bodybuilders and athletes. Although they may vary on how much protein they think we should eat or exactly what type of training program should be performed, every one of them agrees on one point; consuming carbs before during and after their workouts.

One of those professionals, Milos Sarcev, is a professional bodybuilder who now trains those competing in the Olympia.

Milos gives his athletes a high-carb meal before their workouts, a high-carb drink combined with amino acids during their workouts, and then a high-carb plus lean protein meal after their workouts.

Even more than protein itself, carbs are more muscle tissue sparing because, when consumed, the body does not need to scavenge its own muscle tissue to create glucose. Carbs also help to keep cortisol low during stressful exercise which helps prevent muscle tissue catabolism.

Remember, the body does not CARE that you want to look like a Roman statue in a bathing suit.

The human body has evolved to first supply its energy needs for the most important organ of all...the brain, which uses about 40% of the energy supply.

Look at the most successful high-carb YouTuber, Durianrider.

He and his girlfriend, Natasha, eat carbs almost exclusively and they are very thin and are good athletes.

Carb the F up!

 

[Soren]

Hardly. All of you are just coping and seeking confirmation bias to confirm that fasting is bad. When it’s actually the best thing to do for serious weight loss. It’s undeniable.
Many, many positive success stories and they rarely regain the weight.
Anyone that denies the benefits is simply ignorant or has bad intentions.

Lose muscle mass? What muscle mass? People who do not workout hardly have any muscle mass to lose.
Stop with the cope. Fasting is the best intervention for weight loss. Period. And I’m not saying it’s good for overall health.

Even @Dapose confirmed that it works for weight loss.

I did fasting and intermittent fasting for years, I was religious about it. Yes i lost weight but in the end my body completely crashed, my hair became thin, frizzy and began falling out, I could not sleep, my face aged years and I had big eye bags I could not get rid of. My body was absolutely destroyed from chronically elevated stress hormones caused by fasting. It took me years to fully recover.

I would love if fasting was a good long term solution to weight loss as I did it for many years and it is a very simple intervention unfortunately it is not the magic pill that it is hyped to be and comes from a flawed way of looking at weight loss. It is not cope and confirmation bias it is many studies and years of personal experience.

 

[Soren]

This is my exact experience Haidut writes about here. In my late 30’s I discovered the false hope of the Ketogenic diet and Fasting. After 6 months I was looking the skinniest I had been since my senior highschool year. Amazing! No, Dehydration! A year later endless health problems started. And I would go in and out of trying keto fasting again and again.
Here is the real problem that compounds as the psychology of what Haidut writes about plays out in your head. You feel really good fasting with good seeming mental clarity. This is because your cortisol is running the show. So you really feel like you’re doing the write thing. That’s a huge problem. The thing that is tearing down your tissues is giving you mental clarity and of course lower endo-toxin from never eating anything is great. But then you start getting leg cramps at night. Then you start getting foot cramps in the day. Then you boost electrolytes and eat more fat. Then you start loosing sleep. So then you start taking freezing cold showers. That’s fun and gives more mental clarity so then you cut out all plants from the diet. Then your thyroid starts to hurt!!! And you think it’s a soar throat! So then you Fast for longer! Then you start taking terrible supplements that you think help you detox! Whatever the hell that means. So this clear mind you get leads you down a rabbit hole right towards fatty liver, terribly hypothyroid, food craving.
I had a stabbing pain in my throat for an entire year. Right where my thyroid is. And all I could think to do was eat less frequently and eat more steak. And buy more supplements.
The harsh reality is that no one person in this country doesn’t have pounds of PUFA making up there bodies tissues. So if you want to fast you are putting yourself on a very high Pufa diet. It’s that simple.

This was very similar to my experience in my early 20s. Did you find that it affected your hair?

 

[BobbyJackson]

I’ve had the same experience from fasting. It helped me lose all the weight I gained when I was a teenager and become very skinny. As soon as I stopped fasting it all came back rapidly. Extremely difficult to keep off the weight. At the same time I lost tons of muscle, became pale and weak and whatnot.

Not only that, I always felt super stressed. I think it ultimately messed my adrenal glands and thyroid. I feel like it burnt me out hard and I was mega addicted to the stress. I used to do anything that would give me more stress. Relaxing was annoying to me, I wanted stress. I just kept doing more and more stressful stuff, like cycling for 30 miles in a day as hard as I could, drinking tons of caffeine to get “energy” etc. Ultimately the crash was brutal and I’m still recovering from it.

It’s just not sustainable at all, I think.

 

[Ynot]

At least most of you lost weight doing IF / Keto. I didn't lose weight (did it for 2+ years strict and even went carnivore) and started losing hair and I started feeling that I was looking old! But I did feel great! But I do think that was the PUFA removal as after adding carbs back in I'm still the same. I still need to lose fat though!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

At least most of you lost weight doing IF / Keto. I didn't lose weight (did it for 2+ years strict and even went carnivore) and started losing hair and I started feeling that I was looking old! But I did feel great! But I do think that was the PUFA removal as after adding carbs back in I'm still the same. I still need to lose fat though!

Low-fat with plenty of sugar was finally my weight loss end. I lost my unwanted fat and have kept it off, when nothing else worked long term. Keto was the worst and vegetarian was bad too. Paleo and the Blood type diet were the best, but still second to Ray Peat’s advice. I kind of combine them all. I get what you mean about needing the stress for energy, the adrenaline, that was me too.