The Ocean’s Mysterious Thiamine Deficiency

[cjm]

The Ocean’s Mysterious Vitamin Deficiency | Hakai Magazine

Full link above, some select quotes below.

The Ocean’s Mysterious Vitamin Deficiency​

A puzzling lack of thiamine is disrupting some marine ecosystems.​

“In the early 20th century, a small and invasive herring species called the alewife spread through the Great Lakes ecosystem, displacing the lakes’ native forage species. Alewife contains high concentrations of thiaminase, and as it became a major food source for lake trout, and other native fishes, the larger fish developed chronic thiamine deficiency. Their natural reproductive success deteriorated, and the trout’s population cratered. The Great Lakes’ saga illustrates the outsized impact that one single nutrient can have on an entire ecosystem.”

“In California, thiaminase has become a lead suspect in the case of the Sacramento River’s salmon. Due to recent changes in surface water temperature, the coastal array of forage species has shifted. Chinook in this region usually eat a diverse range of prey, including many small fish species, krill, and squid. Yet for months—possibly years—before the 2020 spawning season, the salmon subsisted almost exclusively on northern anchovy, a species rich in the thiamine-destroying enzyme.”

“Affected animals behave abnormally, suffer neurological and reproductive disorders, and can eventually die.”

“The symptoms he has observed in thiamine deficient animals are so severe, he explains, that if natural phenomena were the cause, affected animal populations would have vanished or adapted long ago. Balk believes human activity is somehow sapping ecosystems of vitamin B1, either by blocking production or obstructing its passage from one trophic level to the next.”

“Within a few years, Balk and his team of international collaborators had found thiamine deficiency affecting Baltic Sea blue mussels and eels captured along the North American east coast. By then, scientists were paying more attention to a particularly insidious threat of thiamine deficiency: its sublethal impacts, which, short of killing an individual, can severely affect stamina, strength, coordination, and memory, among other functions. In birds, along with reproductive failures, the condition may cause paralysis and a loss of the ability to vocalize. Ultimately, sublethal effects are about as bad as, if not worse than, lethal ones because they can harm creatures, and alter their behavior, over long periods of time without scientists even realizing it. This phenomenon, which Balk and his colleagues have written about, could have major implications for wildlife research efforts going back several decades.
Thiamine deficiency might not be limited to the water either. Balk says he has tested liver, brain, and blood samples from moose in southern Sweden and measured the levels of enzymes that correlate to thiamine activity. His results, he says, point toward “severe” thiamine deficiency.”

“Honeyfield also has a working hypothesis that some broad environmental change has altered thiamine production at the base of the food web. “If there’s no synthesis going on at the bottom, then there’s no source to feed up through to the top predators,” Honeyfield says. “Exactly how that is playing out is a big, big question.””

“Most of the hatcheries on the river have treated the problem by bathing the fry in thiamine solution, while the Coleman facility also injected the adult females with thiamine.”

 

[youngsinatra]

Great share!

 

[TheSir]

Heavy metals create functional blockages in thiamine metabolism. Strong lead toxicity for example can cause the RDA of thiamine to climb from 2mg to 2000mg. Fishes all around the world have significant loads of several toxic metals.

 

[cjm]

Thiamine baths, like the treatment for fishies, work for humans as well (personal observation).

 

[Regina]

The Ocean’s Mysterious Vitamin Deficiency | Hakai Magazine

Full link above, some select quotes below.

The Ocean’s Mysterious Vitamin Deficiency​

A puzzling lack of thiamine is disrupting some marine ecosystems.​

“In the early 20th century, a small and invasive herring species called the alewife spread through the Great Lakes ecosystem, displacing the lakes’ native forage species. Alewife contains high concentrations of thiaminase, and as it became a major food source for lake trout, and other native fishes, the larger fish developed chronic thiamine deficiency. Their natural reproductive success deteriorated, and the trout’s population cratered. The Great Lakes’ saga illustrates the outsized impact that one single nutrient can have on an entire ecosystem.”

“In California, thiaminase has become a lead suspect in the case of the Sacramento River’s salmon. Due to recent changes in surface water temperature, the coastal array of forage species has shifted. Chinook in this region usually eat a diverse range of prey, including many small fish species, krill, and squid. Yet for months—possibly years—before the 2020 spawning season, the salmon subsisted almost exclusively on northern anchovy, a species rich in the thiamine-destroying enzyme.”

“Affected animals behave abnormally, suffer neurological and reproductive disorders, and can eventually die.”

“The symptoms he has observed in thiamine deficient animals are so severe, he explains, that if natural phenomena were the cause, affected animal populations would have vanished or adapted long ago. Balk believes human activity is somehow sapping ecosystems of vitamin B1, either by blocking production or obstructing its passage from one trophic level to the next.”

“Within a few years, Balk and his team of international collaborators had found thiamine deficiency affecting Baltic Sea blue mussels and eels captured along the North American east coast. By then, scientists were paying more attention to a particularly insidious threat of thiamine deficiency: its sublethal impacts, which, short of killing an individual, can severely affect stamina, strength, coordination, and memory, among other functions. In birds, along with reproductive failures, the condition may cause paralysis and a loss of the ability to vocalize. Ultimately, sublethal effects are about as bad as, if not worse than, lethal ones because they can harm creatures, and alter their behavior, over long periods of time without scientists even realizing it. This phenomenon, which Balk and his colleagues have written about, could have major implications for wildlife research efforts going back several decades.
Thiamine deficiency might not be limited to the water either. Balk says he has tested liver, brain, and blood samples from moose in southern Sweden and measured the levels of enzymes that correlate to thiamine activity. His results, he says, point toward “severe” thiamine deficiency.”

“Honeyfield also has a working hypothesis that some broad environmental change has altered thiamine production at the base of the food web. “If there’s no synthesis going on at the bottom, then there’s no source to feed up through to the top predators,” Honeyfield says. “Exactly how that is playing out is a big, big question.””

“Most of the hatcheries on the river have treated the problem by bathing the fry in thiamine solution, while the Coleman facility also injected the adult females with thiamine.”

Whoa!

 

[Ben.]

Thiamine baths, like the treatment for fishies, work for humans as well (personal observation).

Wow never heard of a thiamine bath before only topical appplication ... indeed google spits out some studys with fish where conditions seem to improve radically bathing them in thiamin ... interesting ...

 

[cjm]

Wow never heard of a thiamine bath before only topical appplication ... indeed google spits out some studys with fish where conditions seem to improve radically bathing them in thiamin ... interesting ...

I said f--- it last week and threw 5 grams (10 x 500mg) into my weekly-ish bath. I usually do something odd like that and then google it to see if there's a controlled study or even an anecdote that speaks to my own personal reasoning, i.e., bypass the gut when oral supplementation is not working (or topical application isn't practical for whatever reason.)

The quote about deficient birds struck me: "In birds, along with reproductive failures, the condition may cause paralysis and a loss of the ability to vocalize."

Who can relate to having the words formed in their mouth but being unable to project or articulate?

 

[cjm]

Lennart Balk and colleagues are researching the effect of thiamine deficiency on land creatures as well:

"Thiamine deficiency might not be limited to the water either. Balk says he has tested liver, brain, and blood samples from moose in southern Sweden and measured the levels of enzymes that correlate to thiamine activity. His results, he says, point toward “severe” thiamine deficiency.”"

Sci-Hub | Widespread episodic thiamine deficiency in Northern Hemisphere wildlife. Scientific Reports, 6(1) | 10.1038/srep38821

Abstract​

Many wildlife populations are declining at rates higher than can be explained by known threats to biodiversity. Recently, thiamine (vitamin B1) deficiency has emerged as a possible contributing cause. Here, thiamine status was systematically investigated in three animal classes: bivalves, ray-finned fishes, and birds. Thiamine diphosphate is required as a cofactor in at least five life-sustaining enzymes that are required for basic cellular metabolism. Analysis of different phosphorylated forms of thiamine, as well as of activities and amount of holoenzyme and apoenzyme forms of thiamine-dependent enzymes, revealed episodically occurring thiamine deficiency in all three animal classes. These biochemical effects were also linked to secondary effects on growth, condition, liver size, blood chemistry and composition, histopathology, swimming behaviour and endurance, parasite infestation, and reproduction. It is unlikely that the thiamine deficiency is caused by impaired phosphorylation within the cells. Rather, the results point towards insufficient amounts of thiamine in the food. By investigating a large geographic area, by extending the focus from lethal to sublethal thiamine deficiency, and by linking biochemical alterations to secondary effects, we demonstrate that the problem of thiamine deficiency is considerably more widespread and severe than previously reported.

 

[Peater]

I wonder if it's a deficiency of the building block(s) of thiamine, or the process that creates it is being effected.

 

[Regina]

The Ocean’s Mysterious Vitamin Deficiency | Hakai Magazine

Full link above, some select quotes below.

The Ocean’s Mysterious Vitamin Deficiency​

A puzzling lack of thiamine is disrupting some marine ecosystems.​

“In the early 20th century, a small and invasive herring species called the alewife spread through the Great Lakes ecosystem, displacing the lakes’ native forage species. Alewife contains high concentrations of thiaminase, and as it became a major food source for lake trout, and other native fishes, the larger fish developed chronic thiamine deficiency. Their natural reproductive success deteriorated, and the trout’s population cratered. The Great Lakes’ saga illustrates the outsized impact that one single nutrient can have on an entire ecosystem.”

“In California, thiaminase has become a lead suspect in the case of the Sacramento River’s salmon. Due to recent changes in surface water temperature, the coastal array of forage species has shifted. Chinook in this region usually eat a diverse range of prey, including many small fish species, krill, and squid. Yet for months—possibly years—before the 2020 spawning season, the salmon subsisted almost exclusively on northern anchovy, a species rich in the thiamine-destroying enzyme.”

“Affected animals behave abnormally, suffer neurological and reproductive disorders, and can eventually die.”

“The symptoms he has observed in thiamine deficient animals are so severe, he explains, that if natural phenomena were the cause, affected animal populations would have vanished or adapted long ago. Balk believes human activity is somehow sapping ecosystems of vitamin B1, either by blocking production or obstructing its passage from one trophic level to the next.”

“Within a few years, Balk and his team of international collaborators had found thiamine deficiency affecting Baltic Sea blue mussels and eels captured along the North American east coast. By then, scientists were paying more attention to a particularly insidious threat of thiamine deficiency: its sublethal impacts, which, short of killing an individual, can severely affect stamina, strength, coordination, and memory, among other functions. In birds, along with reproductive failures, the condition may cause paralysis and a loss of the ability to vocalize. Ultimately, sublethal effects are about as bad as, if not worse than, lethal ones because they can harm creatures, and alter their behavior, over long periods of time without scientists even realizing it. This phenomenon, which Balk and his colleagues have written about, could have major implications for wildlife research efforts going back several decades.
Thiamine deficiency might not be limited to the water either. Balk says he has tested liver, brain, and blood samples from moose in southern Sweden and measured the levels of enzymes that correlate to thiamine activity. His results, he says, point toward “severe” thiamine deficiency.”

“Honeyfield also has a working hypothesis that some broad environmental change has altered thiamine production at the base of the food web. “If there’s no synthesis going on at the bottom, then there’s no source to feed up through to the top predators,” Honeyfield says. “Exactly how that is playing out is a big, big question.””

“Most of the hatcheries on the river have treated the problem by bathing the fry in thiamine solution, while the Coleman facility also injected the adult females with thiamine.”

It's just so fascinating.
And a testament to "you are what you eat." The fish that eat fish/plants with thiaminase directly cause the deficiency.

This is such a critical article to research.

 

[Ben.]

I said f--- it last week and threw 5 grams (10 x 500mg) into my weekly-ish bath. I usually do something odd like that and then google it to see if there's a controlled study or even an anecdote that speaks to my own personal reasoning, i.e., bypass the gut when oral supplementation is not working (or topical application isn't practical for whatever reason.)

The quote about deficient birds struck me: "In birds, along with reproductive failures, the condition may cause paralysis and a loss of the ability to vocalize."

Who can relate to having the words formed in their mouth but being unable to project or articulate?

cool i did something odd like that by taking a methylene blue bath 3-4 times.

Lemme ask you, were thoose 5 grams regular thiamin hcl ? Woudnt the heat of the bath kinda mess with the vitamin?

 

[cjm]

This is such a critical article to research.

The Balk study has some nice bits as well:

"In order to understand the ecological implications of thiamine deficiency, it is important to remember that it always starts with molecular alterations on the subcellular level. Inactivation of thiamine-dependent enzymes is followed by an increase in toxic metabolites, such as lactate, glyoxals, and phytanic acid, as well as a decrease in life sustaining molecules, such as ATP, NADH, and NADPH. Such alterations compromise the integrity of tissues and organs, and their malfunction results in systemic disorders affecting central functions of life, such as growth, reproduction, immune defence, behaviour, nerve function, sensory functions, learning, and memory. Moreover, the metabolic disorders caused by thiamine deficiency are often only partially reversible, i.e. physiological conditions may not be fully restored, even though thiamine supply is fully restored. This has been demonstrated for both TK and KGDH, as well as for other thiamine-dependent enzymes and metabolites. One phenomenon that contributes to irreversible damage is focal cell necrosis, where dead cells are not replaced. These relatively recent observations that a short-lasting (days–weeks) episode of thiamine deficiency may cause long-lasting (many years or for the rest of an organism’s life) sublethal effects add another dimension to the problem. In fact, many feral animals may have gone through one or more episodes of thiamine deficiency in recent years and thus suffer from a long-lasting or permanent reduction in thiamine-dependent enzyme activities. This phenomenon may have dramatic consequences for the majority of ecological research performed during the last decades, because it is not certain that animals display normal characteristics when subject to past and/or present thiamine deficiency. All kinds of characteristics may be affected, e.g. feeding, migration, behaviour, habitat preference, reproduction, and sex ratio."

"Another important property of thiamine is that there is an upper limit for how much thiamine each organ in the body can hold, and any excess thiamine is excreted within a relatively short time. Because thiamine normally should be present in sufficient amounts in the diet, there is no need for storing extra thiamine. To the best of our knowledge, there are no data in the biochemical literature indicating storage of excess thiamine in somatic tissues."

This is why supraphysiological doses are needed to correct a deficiency.

 

[cjm]

cool i did something odd like that by taking a methylene blue bath 3-4 times.

Lemme ask you, were thoose 5 grams regular thiamin hcl ? Woudnt the heat of the bath kinda mess with the vitamin?

Yeah, regular old hcl, our old pal. I didn't think about the heat but my energy is unmistakable. I up the dose tonight.

 

[cjm]

It's just so fascinating.
And a testament to "you are what you eat." The fish that eat fish/plants with thiaminase directly cause the deficiency.

First, I love the sentiment, because I agree, and the simple connection you make. I love bringing down on high onto my table.

Second, I thought, wtf is up with thiaminase being a baddie? Well, apparently no one knows!

Genetic basis of thiaminase I activity in a vertebrate, zebrafish Danio rerio - Scientific Reports

Thiamine (vitamin B1) metabolism is an important driver of human and animal health and ecological functioning. Some organisms, including species of ferns, mollusks, and fish, contain thiamine-degrading enzymes known as thiaminases, and consumption of these organisms can lead to thiamine...

www.nature.com

"The physiological function of thiaminase I is “a long-standing unsolved problem in thiamin physiology”. Hypotheses include a role in the innate immune system to slow bacterial growth, protection against toxic thiamine analogs, an ecological function to limit predation, production of thiamine precursors for thiamine-synthesizing symbionts, or, if physiological conditions favor the reverse direction of the reaction, thiamine salvage. The presence of homologous genes across bacteria, fish, and mollusks suggests an ancient function that has been preserved in genomes across the tree of life. The function of thiaminase I may be more easily unraveled with modern genetic and proteomic tools now that the gene encoding the protein is known and a recombinant version of the protein is available. Knowing that fish are capable of producing thiaminase I de novo should inform future investigations for questions of fishery management importance such as understanding the factors that cause thiaminase I activity in fish to vary. Moreover, this information will help inform and guide human and wildlife health investigations of thiamine deficiency caused by thiaminase I-containing diets."

 

[cjm]

edited, see next

 

[cjm]

wtf is up with thiaminase being a baddie? Well, apparently no one knows!

Actually, the "long-standing unsolved problem in thiamin physiology" is limping now after having stood so long. The quote in the abstract in my last post comes from citation 41. Here's the rest of the quote, which happens to be part of the last paragraph in the paper:

"The biological function of thiaminase I is unknown and has been a long-standing unsolved problem in thiamin physiology. Our results suggest that the evolution of the thiaminase-I activity might be linked to a salvage pathway that recycles degraded forms of ThOH, ThMP, andThDP. This is further supported by the clustering of the thiaminase I gene with the HMP kinase gene in Clostridiumbotulinum and in Burkholderia pseudomallei. An analogous salvage pathway was recently described in which thiaminase II is used to regenerate HMP from base-degraded thiamin (55)."

Citation 55 goes here:

Sci-Hub | A new thiamin salvage pathway. Nature Chemical Biology, 3(8), 492–497 | 10.1038/nchembio.2007.13

[Abstract]

"The physiological function for thiaminase II, a thiamin degrading enzyme, has eluded investigators for more than 50 years. Here, we demonstrate that this enzyme is involved in the regeneration of the thiamin pyrimidine rather than in thiamin degradation, and we identify a new pathway involved in the salvage of base-degraded forms of thiamin. This pathway is widely distributed among bacteria, archaea and eukaryotes. In this pathway, thiamin hydrolysis products such as N-formyl4-amino-5- aminomethyl-2-methylpyrimidine (formylaminopyrimidine; 15) are transported into the cell using the ThiXYZ transport system, deformylated by the ylmB-encodedamidohydrolase and hydrolyzed to 4-amino-5-hydroxymethyl-2-methylpyrimidine (HMP; 6)—an intermediate on the de novothiamin biosynthetic pathway. To our knowledge this is the first example of a thiamin salvage pathway involving thiamin analogs generated by degradation of one of the heterocyclic rings of the cofactor."

 

[Mathgirl]

Joe Dixson talks about this in her book The Missing Link in Dementia (terrible title) ...it's less about dementia but rather dementia like symptoms. She tells her story that includes B1 defeciency. It's a slow start but after the half way point-I couldn't put it down. She has an abbreviated story on her blog.
Questions, quibbles and quandaries

I contacted her and she has had success with 500-mg benfotiamine pills twice daily,
At 300mg treatment was completely safe.” Vitamin B1 as a potential treatment for Alzheimer’s Disease (AD) – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

For further study read everything By Derrick Lonsdale, his life work is Thiamine deficiency. Lots of articles on Hormone Matter site. BTW-He's 99 and he still answers question in the comments and writes articles. A lot of his stuff seems to line up with Peat and he talks about Hans Seyles often

 

[Mathgirl]

Yeah, regular old hcl, our old pal. I didn't think about the heat but my energy is unmistakable. I up the dose tonight.

I'm fascinated by this. I read Derrick Lonsdale's/Chandler Marrs book and they never mentioned topical Thiamine-can't wait to try it? have you tried adding aspirin too? Do you see any contradictions for adding aspirin and or niacinimide?

 

[cjm]

I'm fascinated by this. I read Derrick Lonsdale's/Chandler Marrs book and they never mentioned topical Thiamine-can't wait to try it? have you tried adding aspirin too? Do you see any contradictions for adding aspirin and or niacinimide?

It's frustrating they don't consider it at all. Virtually no therapists do. I've been posting about my troubles with my gut since I joined the forum, and it's those persistent troubles that led me here. Aspirin works, I've posted about it. If you add aspirin and niacinamide, you're pretty close to soaking in SolBan from Idealabs.

Here's the extent of my aspirin bath research:

“...both aspirin and salicylic acid can be absorbed through the skin, so rheumatic problems have been treated by adding the drug to bath water.”
Aspirin, brain, and cancer

[Salicylic acid in the blood following the use of Salimar {??} baths][Article in German]​

[Salicylic acid in the blood following the use of Salimar baths] - PubMed

[On the hyaluronidase-inhibiting action of salicylic acid and humic acids applied in baths] [Article in German]​

[On the hyaluronidase-inhibiting action of salicylic acid and humic acids applied in baths] - PubMed

[Pharmacokinetic study of percutaneous absorption of salicylic acid from baths with salicylate methyl ester and salicylic acid]​

[Pharmacokinetic study of percutaneous absorption of salicylic acid from baths with salicylate methyl ester and salicylic acid] - PubMed [article in German]

“The half-time of elimination in urine after methyl salicylate bathing is (as with injected salicylic acid) between 2.4 to 4 h. Conversely half-time of elimination in urine by salicylic acid bathing is between 30 to 50 h, and is greater with salicylic acid bathing than with other application forms.”

 

[cjm]

Strong lead toxicity for example can cause the RDA of thiamine to climb from 2mg to 2000mg.

It would be a temporary boost in the requirement, because thiamine is a treatment for lead poisoning, in conjunction with vitamin C and calcium EDTA.

Heavy metals create functional blockages in thiamine metabolism.

I'm trying to understand this better:

"Mercury, cadmium, arsenic and lead are among priority metals for toxicological studies due to the frequent human exposure and to the significant burden of disease following acute and chronic intoxication. Among their common characteristics is chemical affinity to proteins and non-protein thiols and their ability to generate cellular oxidative stress by the best-known Fenton mechanism. Their health effects are however diverse: kidney and liver damage, cancer at specific sites, irreversible neurological damages with metal-specific features. Mechanisms for the induction of oxidative stress by interaction with the cell thiolome will be presented, based on literature evidence and of experimental findings."

"First, binding of ions such as Mercury(II) and Arsenic(V) to thiols allows two-electron oxidation of the thiol through the reduction of the metal center without the generation of radicals. In the case of Mercury, this mechanism can be catalytic, due to the fast and efficient intracellular oxidation of Mercury atoms, and lead to the depletion of the soluble thiolome. Moreover, the same mechanism can lead to the inactivation of enzymes that use vicinal thiol groups as active sites or as regulatory elements. Both these mechanisms can explain the much higher toxicity of mercury, when compared to that of other thiol-binding metals that cannot sustain an autocatalytic reversible redox cycle"

Toxicity of Glutathione-Binding Metals: A Review of Targets and Mechanisms

Mercury, cadmium, arsenic and lead are among priority metals for toxicological studies due to the frequent human exposure and to the significant burden of disease following acute and chronic intoxication. Among their common characteristics is chemical affinity to proteins and non-protein thiols...

www.mdpi.com

"any organosulfur compound of the form R−SH... the −SH functional group itself is referred to as either a thiol group or a sulfhydryl group, or a sulfanyl group."

Thiol - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Thiamine was named by the Williams team as a portmanteau of "thio" (meaning sulfur-containing) and "vitamin"."

Thiamine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's all I got. It's bed time in Lagos.