Excessive Fructose is Poison & Burden To The Liver & Mitochondria

[InChristAlone]

There are a lot of health theories circulating that fall flat on their face. Denise Minger wrote a thorough article years ago about wild fruit being as sweet, if not sweeter, than cultivated fruit and I can vouch for that. My family owns acres of land and wild raspberries and blackberries grow in abundance here. These berries taste nothing like their supermarket counterparts. They are as sweet as candy and my refractometer confirms it. The Brix on our wild berries are much higher than the cultivated, supermarket berries and I find them to be better tolerated too. So many things factor into why this is, but ripeness and growing conditions play a major role in a fruit’s sweetness and mineral content (Brix) and the amount of allergenic compounds it contains.

Fruit and/or honey has comprised at least 1/3 of my calories for the last 18 years, at least 1/2 of my calories for roughly 14 years of that and almost all my calories for the roughly 8 years total that I followed a fruitarian diet. I’ve been meticulous with my diet experiments and note taking since I was a teen and have gotten routine testing, as much as every 6 weeks, for the last 17 years, and much of what I’ve seen stated as “truth” in health circles does not align with my experience. In regards to the theory that fructose is a poison to the liver, my gallbladder disease (stones and biliary sludge) resolved while consuming upwards of 4 liters of fresh pressed fruit juice daily, and it was proven via before and after ultrasounds so for me it’s not harmful, but for someone like tca300 whose body doesn’t produce a necessary enzyme, it is. Context matters, something Ray stressed the importance of.

RealNeat, you bring up a good point about our anatomy compared to other primates. I posted about human gut morphology in relation to frugivores, and also faunivores, in this thread:

The only way to produce atherosclerosis in carnivores is to take out the thyroid gland;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/ Very interesting read, but what catched my attention the most, was the beginning. Is atherosclerosis a disease affecting all animals or only certain animals? Atherosclerosis affects only herbivores. Dogs, cats, tigers, and lions can be...

raypeatforum.com

I'm really confused to hear you boast so strongly about your fruitarian background given your health challenges that seemed to have only resolved when you stopped the fruitarian.

We can be extremely attached to our diets even when it's doing us harm. Food is not only a source of nutrition but also a source of pleasure and satisfaction.

God has blessed us with honey and fruit, but He also leads us to fasting and not overindulging our fleshly desires. There has to be balance. Life becomes unstable when we get imbalanced. We also live in a fallen world and it's very hard to get decent fruit. Which is why I planted fruit trees. I am not against fruit in season.

I wouldn't recommend anyone to consume liters of fruit juice to solve their health problems. The acids in the juice can break up stones and cause elimination out the back end however. So much so fruitarians/raw vegans have nearly died of colitis. I know of two off the top of my head.

 

[Jennifer]

I'm really confused to hear you boast so strongly about your fruitarian background given your health challenges that seemed to have only resolved when you stopped the fruitarian.

We can be extremely attached to our diets even when it's doing us harm. Food is not only a source of nutrition but also a source of pleasure and satisfaction.

God has blessed us with honey and fruit, but He also leads us to fasting and not overindulging our fleshly desires. There has to be balance. Life becomes unstable when we get imbalanced. We also live in a fallen world and it's very hard to get decent fruit. Which is why I planted fruit trees. I am not against fruit in season.

I wouldn't recommend anyone to consume liters of fruit juice to solve their health problems. The acids in the juice can break up stones and cause elimination out the back end however. So much so fruitarians/raw vegans have nearly died of colitis. I know of two off the top of my head.

Boasting? Please reread my post. I said my gallbladder disease resolved while consuming 4 liters of fruit juice, not because of it, and I also said that while fructose isn’t harmful for me, it is harmful for someone like tca300 so I’m not sure where you get I was boasting about fruitarianism. I’m also not sure if you were referring to me in particular when you said that you wouldn’t recommend anyone consume liters of fruit juice to solve their health problems but if you were, again, please reread my post. In regards to God, while I respect your right to your beliefs, I do not believe in the same god and mine does not lead me to fasting, but abundance.

 

[InChristAlone]

Boasting? Please reread my post. I said my gallbladder disease resolved while consuming 4 liters of fruit juice, not because of it, and I also said that while fructose isn’t harmful for me, it is harmful for someone like tca300 so I’m not sure where you get I was boasting about fruitarianism. I’m also not sure if you were referring to me in particular when you said that you wouldn’t recommend anyone consume liters of fruit juice to solve their health problems but if you were, again, please reread my post. In regards to God, while I respect your right to your beliefs, I do not believe in the same god and mine does not lead me to fasting, but abundance.

It was implied that fruit and honey didn't do you any harm.

"Fruit and/or honey has comprised at least 1/3 of my calories for the last 18 years, at least 1/2 of my calories for roughly 14 years of that and almost all my calories for the roughly 8 years total that I followed a fruitarian diet. I’ve been meticulous with my diet experiments and note taking since I was a teen and have gotten routine testing, as much as every 6 weeks, for the last 17 years, and much of what I’ve seen stated as “truth” in health circles does not align with my experience. "

I was hoping you would share your struggles during that time but it appears instead you made it seem otherwise. Maybe you are assuming it wasn't the fructose that was the cause? Which may be a reasonable conclusion I don't know. To be a fruitarian means someone is struggling very badly with orthorexia. I hope you are in a much better place now.

If my God exists, the Most High God Yahweh, then no other exists. He does bless His children more than we could ever deserve, but to follow Christ our Savior is to deny ourself and pick up our cross. I'm having huge breakthroughs in obedience instead of new age hedonism which leads to death and destruction in the end.

 

[LLight]

In regards to God, while I respect your right to your beliefs, I do not believe in the same god and mine does not lead me to fasting, but abundance.

May I ask in which God you believe?

 

[RealNeat]

There are a lot of health theories circulating that fall flat on their face. Denise Minger wrote a thorough article years ago about wild fruit being as sweet, if not sweeter, than cultivated fruit and I can vouch for that. My family owns acres of land and wild raspberries and blackberries grow in abundance here. These berries taste nothing like their supermarket counterparts. They are as sweet as candy and my refractometer confirms it. The Brix on our wild berries are much higher than the cultivated, supermarket berries and I find them to be better tolerated too. So many things factor into why this is, but ripeness and growing conditions play a major role in a fruit’s sweetness and mineral content (Brix) and the amount of allergenic compounds it contains.

Fruit and/or honey has comprised at least 1/3 of my calories for the last 18 years, at least 1/2 of my calories for roughly 14 years of that and almost all my calories for the roughly 8 years total that I followed a fruitarian diet. I’ve been meticulous with my diet experiments and note taking since I was a teen and have gotten routine testing, as much as every 6 weeks, for the last 17 years, and much of what I’ve seen stated as “truth” in health circles does not align with my experience. In regards to the theory that fructose is a poison to the liver, my gallbladder disease (stones and biliary sludge) resolved while consuming upwards of 4 liters of fresh pressed fruit juice daily, and it was proven via before and after ultrasounds so for me it’s not harmful, but for someone like tca300 whose body doesn’t produce a necessary enzyme, it is. Context matters, something Ray stressed the importance of.

RealNeat, you bring up a good point about our anatomy compared to other primates. I posted about human gut morphology in relation to frugivores, and also faunivores, in this thread:

The only way to produce atherosclerosis in carnivores is to take out the thyroid gland;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/ Very interesting read, but what catched my attention the most, was the beginning. Is atherosclerosis a disease affecting all animals or only certain animals? Atherosclerosis affects only herbivores. Dogs, cats, tigers, and lions can be...

raypeatforum.com

It sounds like we agree, however, I'm not as convinced of bio individuality as many others. Our physiology as humans (unless acted upon by stressors in the environment which cause abnormalities that require balancing outside of the physiological norm) is pretty much identical. The fact that you can handle that amount of fructose and others cant is not because you are different physiologically its because the others body is out of alignment in one or more ways, and this isnt "shaming." The template for biochemistry and physiological function (in the human "blueprint") is perfect just as a car is manufactured to be perfect, but the wear and tear of the road, failure of regular maintenance and defects in raw materials during production adds an illusion of individuality. A great example is milk and all the complexities it presents for people who try and incorporate it on this forum, it hardly ever comes down to "I'm permanently genetically different, I cant drink milk" rather its either the emulsifiers, the source feed, A1 protein, lack of proper metabolism etc that contribute to the "intolerance."

 

[jay123]

Years ago I came across some readings (and I cannot remember where) that was discussing "eating the rainbow colors (lots of fruits and fruit juices)" was dangerous because of too many fruits (fructose) (If I recall the author said something about the liver not being able to process more than 25-30 g of fructose per meal without problems happening in the body). But anyway, it made me think that in numerous places in the world you only have fruit for a short season and eat a bunch of it and it would plump you up before the scarcity season. And then you would be eating more glucose foods. So there seems to be a method to trees bearing fruits for seasons to entice carriers of seeds in them. And I remember from that reading that the author came to the conclusion that humans, because of the availabilty of food today, really only need good water, glucose foods mostly, and minerals to survive in a healthy way.

 

[Jennifer]

It was implied that fruit and honey didn't do you any harm.

"Fruit and/or honey has comprised at least 1/3 of my calories for the last 18 years, at least 1/2 of my calories for roughly 14 years of that and almost all my calories for the roughly 8 years total that I followed a fruitarian diet. I’ve been meticulous with my diet experiments and note taking since I was a teen and have gotten routine testing, as much as every 6 weeks, for the last 17 years, and much of what I’ve seen stated as “truth” in health circles does not align with my experience. "

I was hoping you would share your struggles during that time but it appears instead you made it seem otherwise. Maybe you are assuming it wasn't the fructose that was the cause? Which may be a reasonable conclusion I don't know. To be a fruitarian means someone is struggling very badly with orthorexia. I hope you are in a much better place now.

If my God exists, the Most High God Yahweh, then no other exists. He does bless His children more than we could ever deserve, but to follow Christ our Savior is to deny ourself and pick up our cross. I'm having huge breakthroughs in obedience instead of new age hedonism which leads to death and destruction in the end.

Fruit and honey didn’t harm me, a diet devoid of foods that are necessary for me to thrive did. My health challenges didn’t resolve by removing fruit from my diet, but by adding animal protein back into it. I continued consuming liters of fruit juice while my health improved and members can take a look at my Cellular Regeneration log if they want to know more about my history with fruitarianism/Dr. Morse’s protocol. Orthorexia can be a reason someone follows a fruitarian diet, sure, but for someone like me, it can also be due to health reasons. After years of undiagnosed and untreated thyroid disease leading to years of untreated SIBO and gastritis, fruit was all I could digest so without it, I would have starved. It was not the catalyst for my failing health. That happened a decade prior while in the care of a naturopath who had me on many versions of the whole food, plant-based diet. I don’t thrive without animal protein.

If my God exists, the Most High God Yahweh, then no other exists. He does bless His children more than we could ever deserve, but to follow Christ our Savior is to deny ourself and pick up our cross. I'm having huge breakthroughs in obedience instead of new age hedonism which leads to death and destruction in the end.

Again, you are entitled to your beliefs and I’m entitled to mine.

May I ask in which God you believe?

I hope you don’t mind, but I’d rather not. It just invites people to tell me how my beliefs are wrong, and my faith is not up for debate.

 

[Jennifer]

It sounds like we agree, however, I'm not as convinced of bio individuality as many others. Our physiology as humans (unless acted upon by stressors in the environment which cause abnormalities that require balancing outside of the physiological norm) is pretty much identical. The fact that you can handle that amount of fructose and others cant is not because you are different physiologically its because the others body is out of alignment in one or more ways, and this isnt "shaming." The template for biochemistry and physiological function (in the human "blueprint") is perfect just as a car is manufactured to be perfect, but the wear and tear of the road, failure of regular maintenance and defects in raw materials during production adds an illusion of individuality. A great example is milk and all the complexities it presents for people who try and incorporate it on this forum, it hardly ever comes down to "I'm permanently genetically different, I cant drink milk" rather its either the emulsifiers, the source feed, A1 protein, lack of proper metabolism etc that contribute to the "intolerance."

The bolded is what I think of as bio individuality. I believe we, for whatever reason, all have our own tissue strengths and weaknesses so, for example, I would never advise someone like tca300 whose body doesn’t produce the needed enzyme to consume fructose to do so, but that doesn’t mean I believe our intolerances can’t be overcome and that certainly doesn’t mean I think fructose is poison. lol

 

[LLight]

I hope you don’t mind, but I’d rather not. It just invites people to tell me how my beliefs are wrong, and my faith is not up for debate.

I can assure you that was not my goal to judge you but I understand that you want to keep it to yourself

I was thinking most religions were encouraging fasting one way or another. For example, I've learned recently that "even" ancient Christians used to dry fast like Muslims do. That's why I was curious.

Have a good day!

 

[Jennifer]

No worries, @LLight. :) I knew that wasn’t your goal. I figured you were just asking out of curiosity. I don’t follow any traditional religion, if that helps.

 

[InChristAlone]

Fruit and honey didn’t harm me, a diet devoid of foods that are necessary for me to thrive did. My health challenges didn’t resolve by removing fruit from my diet, but by adding animal protein back into it. I continued consuming liters of fruit juice while my health improved and members can take a look at my Cellular Regeneration log if they want to know more about my history with fruitarianism/Dr. Morse’s protocol. Orthorexia can be a reason someone follows a fruitarian diet, sure, but for someone like me, it can also be due to health reasons. After years of undiagnosed and untreated thyroid disease leading to years of untreated SIBO and gastritis, fruit was all I could digest so without it, I would have starved. It was not the catalyst for my failing health. That happened a decade prior while in the care of a naturopath who had me on many versions of the whole food, plant-based diet. I don’t thrive without animal protein.



Again, you are entitled to your beliefs and I’m entitled to mine.



I hope you don’t mind, but I’d rather not. It just invites people to tell me how my beliefs are wrong, and my faith is not up for debate.

Are you saying that you could not digest animal protein either? I know your experimentation goes back a long ways and I don't remember all of it. I thought you mostly just believed Dr. Morse was right that fruit is the best food for humans and that is why you weren't eating animal foods.

I understand how difficult it is to feel like food doesn't digest. I'm pretty stubborn though, I force my body to accept foods at times lol. Red meat was the hardest for me until I started using betaine hcl and somehow I'm needing it less and less. I found this guy on youtube called 'kick your fat in the nuts' haha, he helps people with digestion problems. He recommends the betaine and enzymes and a bile thinning supp with beet greens in it (very expensive I didn't try it I preferred coffee enemas which he said could work too). He actually recommends citrus fruits for those with low stomach acid, but I was already doing that! Haha so I eliminated that recently and I'm having some gains in my health adding beans in which I didn't tolerate at all on the Ray Peat diet it only got worse and worse and worse. That even acacia fiber in gatorade caused IBS. So I can vouch for subsisting on easily digested sugars not curing digestion problems and I wish I didn't take Peat's wholesale advice to avoid grains and beans. (he did in fact add in oatmeal before his death, I do wonder why that is)

That said, I was able to mostly recover from burnout eating a lot of ice cream so I am glad to see you enjoying that :)

 

[Jennifer]

Are you saying that you could not digest animal protein either? I know your experimentation goes back a long ways and I don't remember all of it. I thought you mostly just believed Dr. Morse was right that fruit is the best food for humans and that is why you weren't eating animal foods.

Yep, I couldn’t digest any animal protein. I kept trying but after my spine collapsed, it caused terrible acid reflux and would trigger hypoglycemia. It got so bad that I was waking at night choking on acid and I started having adrenaline attacks—daily convulsion and syncope episodes. Once my doctor prescribe me thyroid, I was finally able to tolerate meat again. I absolutely believe that ripe fruit is one of the best foods for me, but I never believed it’s the best food for all humans. My mum did much better with starch.

I understand how difficult it is to feel like food doesn't digest. I'm pretty stubborn though, I force my body to accept foods at times lol. Red meat was the hardest for me until I started using betaine hcl and somehow I'm needing it less and less. I found this guy on youtube called 'kick your fat in the nuts' haha, he helps people with digestion problems. He recommends the betaine and enzymes and a bile thinning supp with beet greens in it (very expensive I didn't try it I preferred coffee enemas which he said could work too). He actually recommends citrus fruits for those with low stomach acid, but I was already doing that! Haha so I eliminated that recently and I'm having some gains in my health adding beans in which I didn't tolerate at all on the Ray Peat diet it only got worse and worse and worse. That even acacia fiber in gatorade caused IBS. So I can vouch for subsisting on easily digested sugars not curing digestion problems and I wish I didn't take Peat's wholesale advice to avoid grains and beans. (he did in fact add in oatmeal before his death, I do wonder why that is)

Haha! I understand. I forced myself too until my body revolted. But how awesome that you’re tolerating beans! I remember you were having serious panic attacks with fiber so I’m happy to hear you’re doing so well with beans. And if you like them, even better! My goal was to thrive on all the foods I enjoy. It only took about 10 years for me to achieve it, but better late than never. lol

That said, I was able to mostly recover from burnout eating a lot of ice cream so I am glad to see you enjoying that :)

Ohh, yeah. I’m making up for lost time. My mémé would be proud. :)

 

[InChristAlone]

Yep, I couldn’t digest any animal protein. I kept trying but after my spine collapsed, it caused terrible acid reflux and would trigger hypoglycemia. It got so bad that I was waking at night choking on acid and I started having adrenaline attacks—daily convulsion and syncope episodes. Once my doctor prescribe me thyroid, I was finally able to tolerate meat again. I absolutely believe that ripe fruit is one of the best foods for me, but I never believed it’s the best food for all humans. My mum did much better with starch.



Haha! I understand. I forced myself too until my body revolted. But how awesome that you’re tolerating beans! I remember you were having serious panic attacks with fiber so I’m happy to hear you’re doing so well with beans. And if you like them, even better! My goal was to thrive on all the foods I enjoy. It only took about 10 years for me to achieve it, but better late than never. lol



Ohh, yeah. I’m making up for lost time. My mémé would be proud. :)

Yeah I just put up with the reflux which probably wasn't a good idea. Probably did some damage. I am really glad thyroid helped you digest meat. Just overall I'm really happy for you as well. I'm sorry for coming at you so strongly. I just remembered how unwell you were with only able to tolerate the fruit and was surprised that you thought it's still really good for you. But yes thyroid and zinc and protein from meat can absolutely make the difference. I wish everyone had such success as you!!

Honestly I wish I could subsist more on a fruit and dairy based diet. I loved Peat for telling me that was healthy! lol. But it clearly wasn't working out so well. I grew up eating meat, bread, potatoes, some cheese, ice cream, maybe an apple or banana here and there, soda, candy, cookies, juice, and the only plant food really was baked beans and some lettuce on my taco lol. Actually when I got married I really enjoyed refried bean burritos. And remember doing well on them back then at least. Just really regret getting so diet obsessed. I'm still kinda obsessed with this whole vitamin a detox diet, but this time I feel God is leading me to some answers.

I slept through the night recently and all I ate for dinner was haagen dazs (chicken, beans and rice for lunch)!! So ice cream still agrees with me.

 

[Jennifer]

Yeah I just put up with the reflux which probably wasn't a good idea. Probably did some damage. I am really glad thyroid helped you digest meat. Just overall I'm really happy for you as well. I'm sorry for coming at you so strongly. I just remembered how unwell you were with only able to tolerate the fruit and was surprised that you thought it's still really good for you. But yes thyroid and zinc and protein from meat can absolutely make the difference. I wish everyone had such success as you!!

Honestly I wish I could subsist more on a fruit and dairy based diet. I loved Peat for telling me that was healthy! lol. But it clearly wasn't working out so well. I grew up eating meat, bread, potatoes, some cheese, ice cream, maybe an apple or banana here and there, soda, candy, cookies, juice, and the only plant food really was baked beans and some lettuce on my taco lol. Actually when I got married I really enjoyed refried bean burritos. And remember doing well on them back then at least. Just really regret getting so diet obsessed. I'm still kinda obsessed with this whole vitamin a detox diet, but this time I feel God is leading me to some answers.

I slept through the night recently and all I ate for dinner was haagen dazs (chicken, beans and rice for lunch)!! So ice cream still agrees with me.

It’s okay, Janelle. No worries. :) There was a point when I thought I’d have to accept being on a fruitarian diet indefinitely but thankfully, NDT resolved not only my weak digestion but also the gallbladder disease so that I was able to increase my fat intake from dairy and eggs, which allowed me to come off thyroid last year, among other things. I wish everyone had such success too, but I think healing is going to look different for everyone, and I just wish that people would embrace that their journey is their own. I don’t share my experiences to discredit other people’s experiences, but to show that many possibilities exist, and I’m so grateful for that. I’m glad that you feel divinely guided and are finding healing. Putting my faith back in myself and God has been life changing for me so I understand. I hope one day you too can have all the burritos, fruit, milk etc. that you care for.

 

[InChristAlone]

It’s okay, Janelle. No worries. :) There was a point when I thought I’d have to accept being on a fruitarian diet indefinitely but thankfully, NDT resolved not only my weak digestion but also the gallbladder disease so that I was able to increase my fat intake from dairy and eggs, which allowed me to come off thyroid last year, among other things. I wish everyone had such success too, but I think healing is going to look different for everyone, and I just wish that people would embrace that their journey is their own. I don’t share my experiences to discredit other people’s experiences, but to show that many possibilities exist, and I’m so grateful for that. I’m glad that you feel divinely guided and are finding healing. Putting my faith back in myself and God has been life changing for me so I understand. I hope one day you too can have all the burritos, fruit, milk etc. that you care for.

That sounds beautiful Jennifer! Thank-you

 

[htuoyabc]

When it comes to proteins, is gelatin ok? I make it from beef feet and tendons and remove the fat.

 

[DaveFoster]

I’ve done everything to fix it and nothing has worked except removing fructose

Have you had tests done for gut dysbiosis, dual-antibiotic therapy, and repeated multiple times? I don't think people respond fully initially. It usually takes repeated antibiotic therapy and probably the introduction of more favorable microbes. It's not really a very clinically pursued avenue, unfortunately. "You just have IBS. It just happens."

 

[charlie]

dual-antibiotic therapy,

Ouch...yeh dont do that unless you want to suppress the liver and cause cholestasis. There is a better way now.

 

[DaveFoster]

Ouch...yeh dont do that unless you want to suppress the liver and cause cholestasis. There is a better way now.

Well, it's standard for SIBO, which I had in the past. It helped me quite a bit. I didn't find the antibiotics too toxic. You probably could mimic it with other things; it's all kind of pushing in the same direction anyway. I will say I had some of the most clarity on two anti-biotics and taking anti-serotonin drugs; so much so, that I spontaneously started writing about it just to make a note. It definitely lends credulity to Dr. Peat's ideas that serotonin from gut inflammation is the most chronically oppressive substance to brain function.

The antibiotics were metronidazole and cephalexin, so I believe they're "middle-of-the-road" on toxicity: not quite benign like minocycline or erythromycin. Nevertheless, they're standard for SIBO treatment, if you've done the hydrogen breath test and had a confirmed overgrowth.

It would probably be a good idea to take things to protect the liver while taking the antibiotics. My liver has always been very "supported" with my poly-pharmacy of pregnenolone and caffeine.

 

[charlie]

Well, it's standard for SIBO, which I had in the past. It helped me quite a bit. I didn't find the antibiotics too toxic. You probably could mimic it with other things; it's all kind of pushing in the same direction anyway. I will say I had some of the most clarity on two anti-biotics and taking anti-serotonin drugs; so much so, that I spontaneously started writing about it just to make a note. It definitely lends credulity to Dr. Peat's ideas that serotonin from gut inflammation is the most chronically oppressive substance to brain function.

The antibiotics were metronidazole and cephalexin, so I believe they're "middle-of-the-road" on toxicity: not quite benign like minocycline or erythromycin. Nevertheless, they're standard for SIBO treatment, if you've done the hydrogen breath test and had a confirmed overgrowth.

SIBO is nothing more the lack of bile and the incorrect bile acid profile. Fix the liver and get the bile flowing and the bile acid profile correct and it fixes SIBO.