Excessive Fructose is Poison & Burden To The Liver & Mitochondria

[InChristAlone]

Well, it's standard for SIBO, which I had in the past. It helped me quite a bit. I didn't find the antibiotics too toxic. You probably could mimic it with other things; it's all kind of pushing in the same direction anyway. I will say I had some of the most clarity on two anti-biotics and taking anti-serotonin drugs; so much so, that I spontaneously started writing about it just to make a note. It definitely lends credulity to Dr. Peat's ideas that serotonin from gut inflammation is the most chronically oppressive substance to brain function.

The antibiotics were metronidazole and cephalexin, so I believe they're "middle-of-the-road" on toxicity: not quite benign like minocycline or erythromycin. Nevertheless, they're standard for SIBO treatment, if you've done the hydrogen breath test and had a confirmed overgrowth.

It would probably be a good idea to take things to protect the liver while taking the antibiotics. My liver has always been very "supported" with my poly-pharmacy of pregnenolone and caffeine.

I personally think the only reason caffeine seems to protect the liver is due to greater blood flow, the more times the blood is pumping through well the more it's going to function!

 

[Samurai Drive]

Have you had tests done for gut dysbiosis, dual-antibiotic therapy, and repeated multiple times? I don't think people respond fully initially. It usually takes repeated antibiotic therapy and probably the introduction of more favorable microbes. It's not really a very clinically pursued avenue, unfortunately. "You just have IBS. It just happens."

Hey Dave, good to see an old peata still posting. How much preg do u take these days and where from.

 

[DaveFoster]

I personally think the only reason caffeine seems to protect the liver is due to greater blood flow, the more times the blood is pumping through well the more it's going to function!

Experimental studies show that coffee consumption reduces fat accumulation and collagen deposition in the liver and promotes antioxidant capacity through an increase in glutathione as well as modulation of the gene and protein expression of several inflammatory mediators. - Coffee and liver health - PubMed

_

Hey Dave, good to see an old peata still posting. How much preg do u take these days and where from.

I don't take pregnenolone. I take progesterone as Kenogen.

 

[RealNeat]

_

I don't take pregnenolone. I take progesterone as Kenogen.

Adding milk to coffee likely also boosts the glutathione

 

[nomoreketones]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXuuPqPXrOw

0:53 - "It will do that in a fairly small amount"

Looking back at Ray Peat's articles, it seems like he favored fructose over glucose because he was concerned with glucotoxicity. When you look up glucotoxicity it involves destroying the β-cell function of the pancreas. But in the last few years I've been reading more and more that the root of metabolic syndrome is in the liver not glucose clearance after a meal. According to what I've been reading lately, a dysfunctional liver will eventually lead to a chain of events that destroy the β-cell function of the pancreas, not glucose spikes after meals.

I've been reading that if a person's liver becomes full of fat which can be caused by many things including too much fructose and too much saturated fat, the diseased liver becomes insulin resistant itself and keeps on pumping out glucose despite that pancreas telling it to stop. This leads to chronic hyperglycemia which (for a non-diabetic) is much much worse than the transient hyperglycemia after a meal.

Ray Peat is all about challenging conventional ideas. In this forum Ray Peat's original ideas are the conventional ideas that we will challenge as a community. I believe this is very much in the spirit of Ray Peat. It is good to challenge Ray Peat's ideas when new studies are done and new information comes out. Well, the new information is here and the liver seems to be the primary place that requires the community's focus in my opinion.

Perhaps in the hierarchy of nutritional importance, keeping the liver healthy is more important than focusing on consuming fructose and avoiding PUFA just because that has been the conventional wisdom here. I love how this community is open minded enough to change course and go deeper down the rabbit hole of root causes. I strongly believes that this is in the spirit of Ray Peat's philosophy.

Members of this community can hold opposing views and hash them out here in public and hopefully these exchanges of ideas will help us all get closer to the truth and better health.

 

[charlie]

0:53 - "It will do that in a fairly small amount"

Looking back at Ray Peat's articles, it seems like he favored fructose over glucose because he was concerned with glucotoxicity. When you look up glucotoxicity it involves destroying the β-cell function of the pancreas. But in the last few years I've been reading more and more that the root of metabolic syndrome is in the liver not glucose clearance after a meal. According to what I've been reading lately, a dysfunctional liver will eventually lead to a chain of events that destroy the β-cell function of the pancreas, not glucose spikes after meals.

I've been reading that if a person's liver becomes full of fat which can be caused by many things including too much fructose and too much saturated fat, the diseased liver becomes insulin resistant itself and keeps on pumping out glucose despite that pancreas telling it to stop. This leads to chronic hyperglycemia which (for a non-diabetic) is much much worse than the transient hyperglycemia after a meal.

Ray Peat is all about challenging conventional ideas. In this forum Ray Peat's original ideas are the conventional ideas that we will challenge as a community. I believe this is very much in the spirit of Ray Peat. It is good to challenge Ray Peat's ideas when new studies are done and new information comes out. Well, the new information is here and the liver seems to be the primary place that requires the community's focus in my opinion.

Perhaps in the hierarchy of nutritional importance, keeping the liver healthy is more important than focusing on consuming fructose and avoiding PUFA just because that has been the conventional wisdom here. I love how this community is open minded enough to change course and go deeper down the rabbit hole of root causes. I strongly believes that this is in the spirit of Ray Peat's philosophy.

There it is. Fixing the liver, fixes everything.

Members of this community can hold opposing views and hash them out here in public and hopefully these exchanges of ideas will help us all get closer to the truth and better health.

Well said, very well said.

 

[hierundjetzt]

There it is. Fixing the liver, fixes everything.

Well said, very well said.

The problem is though that nobody really knows how to fix the liver...the same with thyroid.

 

[charlie]

The problem is though that nobody really knows how to fix the liver...the same with thyroid.

We know how to fix it now, the new paradigm has emerged.

 

[hierundjetzt]

We know how to fix it now, the new paradigm has emerged.

Well, it would be nice. But I think it's still going to take some time before the new paradigm has been proven or disproven.
With regard to low vitamin A, I think it's more of an American problem due to the addition to skin milk, fortification of certain foods etc. Here in Europe Vitamin A is not really artificially added anywhere. A d I don't think that avoiding vegetables and fruits which have vitamin A is a good idea as we have been eating them traditionally for centuries. But adding synthetic vitamin A, I agree, is not a good idea for health.

 

[charlie]

Well, it would be nice. But I think it's still going to take some time before the new paradigm has been proven or disproven.
With regard to low vitamin A, I think it's more of an American problem due to the addition to skin milk, fortification of certain foods etc. Here in Europe Vitamin A is not really artificially added anywhere. A d I don't think that avoiding vegetables and fruits which have vitamin A is a good idea as we have been eating them traditionally for centuries. But adding synthetic vitamin A, I agree, is not a good idea for health.

There are many of us proving it right every day.

 

[RealNeat]

0:53 - "It will do that in a fairly small amount"

Looking back at Ray Peat's articles, it seems like he favored fructose over glucose because he was concerned with glucotoxicity. When you look up glucotoxicity it involves destroying the β-cell function of the pancreas. But in the last few years I've been reading more and more that the root of metabolic syndrome is in the liver not glucose clearance after a meal. According to what I've been reading lately, a dysfunctional liver will eventually lead to a chain of events that destroy the β-cell function of the pancreas, not glucose spikes after meals.

I've been reading that if a person's liver becomes full of fat which can be caused by many things including too much fructose and too much saturated fat, the diseased liver becomes insulin resistant itself and keeps on pumping out glucose despite that pancreas telling it to stop. This leads to chronic hyperglycemia which (for a non-diabetic) is much much worse than the transient hyperglycemia after a meal.

Ray Peat is all about challenging conventional ideas. In this forum Ray Peat's original ideas are the conventional ideas that we will challenge as a community. I believe this is very much in the spirit of Ray Peat. It is good to challenge Ray Peat's ideas when new studies are done and new information comes out. Well, the new information is here and the liver seems to be the primary place that requires the community's focus in my opinion.

Perhaps in the hierarchy of nutritional importance, keeping the liver healthy is more important than focusing on consuming fructose and avoiding PUFA just because that has been the conventional wisdom here. I love how this community is open minded enough to change course and go deeper down the rabbit hole of root causes. I strongly believes that this is in the spirit of Ray Peat's philosophy.

Members of this community can hold opposing views and hash them out here in public and hopefully these exchanges of ideas will help us all get closer to the truth and better health.

The amount that fat contributes to fatty liver is significantly more impactful than fructose. Also fat in the liver is not good but fat contributed by fructose and sat fat is not as detrimental as other forms of fatty liver. Regardless, having sufficient choline intake makes this debate almost pointless as experiments show that choline levels are the single most important thing to ward off fatty liver from any energy source.

Do also remember that fructose from fruit comes with potassium/other minerals, vitamins and fiber which all go to stabilizing blood sugar and preventing sudden surges of "unbuffered" sucrose.

Personally potatoes are the last thing I want on a hot summer day, but watermelon and the like is exactly what I crave. The energy requirements of a season or lifestyle also determines which energy source is appropriate and the times when fructose is the most craved is usually when the body needs energy without a large burden on digestion.

 

[nomoreketones]

The amount that fat contributes to fatty liver is significantly more impactful than fructose. Also fat in the liver is not good but fat contributed by fructose and sat fat is not as detrimental as other forms of fatty liver. Regardless, having sufficient choline intake makes this debate almost pointless as experiments show that choline levels are the single most important thing to ward off fatty liver from any energy source.

Do also remember that fructose from fruit comes with potassium/other minerals, vitamins and fiber which all go to stabilizing blood sugar and preventing sudden surges of "unbuffered" sucrose.

Personally potatoes are the last thing I want on a hot summer day, but watermelon and the like is exactly what I crave. The energy requirements of a season or lifestyle also determines which energy source is appropriate and the times when fructose is the most craved is usually when the body needs energy without a large burden on digestion.

According to this double blind study with fat people, overfeeding with muffins made from saturated fat resulted in more liver fat than than overfeeding with muffins made from polyunsaturated fat. All other variables were held constant. The only difference in the study was the type of fat the muffins were made from.

Overeating Saturated Fat Promotes Fatty Liver and Ceramides Compared With Polyunsaturated Fat: A Randomized Trial

Saturated fatty acid (SFA) vs polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) may promote nonalcoholic fatty liver disease by yet unclear mechanisms.To investigate if overeating SFA- and PUFA-enriched diets lead to differential liver fat accumulation in overweight ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Of course neither of those muffin options is good.

Regarding choline, yeah that is very important. People with PEMT polymorphisms are more prone to fatty liver because they make less phosphatidylcholine.

If someone is lean and has a healthy liver then an occasional watermelon on a hot summer day is perfect. If the person has NAFLD then they should skip the watermelon until their liver is healthy. Even though the watermelon may be nutrient rich, an unhealthy liver may have trouble using the nutrients to properly process the fructose.

 

[RealNeat]

According to this double blind study with fat people, overfeeding with muffins made from saturated fat resulted in more liver fat than than overfeeding with muffins made from polyunsaturated fat. All other variables were held constant. The only difference in the study was the type of fat the muffins were made from.

Overeating Saturated Fat Promotes Fatty Liver and Ceramides Compared With Polyunsaturated Fat: A Randomized Trial

Saturated fatty acid (SFA) vs polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) may promote nonalcoholic fatty liver disease by yet unclear mechanisms.To investigate if overeating SFA- and PUFA-enriched diets lead to differential liver fat accumulation in overweight ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Of course neither of those muffin options is good.

Regarding choline, yeah that is very important. People with PEMT polymorphisms are more prone to fatty liver because they make less phosphatidylcholine.

If someone is lean and has a healthy liver then an occasional watermelon on a hot summer day is perfect. If the person has NAFLD then they should skip the watermelon until their liver is healthy. Even though the watermelon may be nutrient rich, an unhealthy liver may have trouble using the nutrients to properly process the fructose.

Yes I'm aware of that study, its popular around these parts for PUFA lovers to quote, yes, sat fat is able to create a fatty liver but pufa is able to do much worse in the long run with straight up liver failure as a consequence. I said that in my last response, "...fat contributed by fructose and sat fat is not as detrimental as other forms of fatty liver." Also, I see no evidence to support your last statement. A fatty liver didnt get fatty because of fruit, in fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest the opposite;

Industrial, not fruit fructose intake is associated with the severity of liver fibrosis in genotype 1 chronic hepatitis C patients - PubMed

The daily intake of industrial, not fruit fructose is a risk factor for metabolic alterations and the severity of liver fibrosis in patients with G1 CHC.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The effect of two energy-restricted diets, a low-fructose diet versus a moderate natural fructose diet, on weight loss and metabolic syndrome parameters: a randomized controlled trial - PubMed

One of the proposed causes of obesity and metabolic syndrome is the excessive intake of products containing added sugars, in particular, fructose. Although the ability of excessive intake of fructose to induce metabolic syndrome is mounting, to date, no study has addressed whether a diet...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This one they consumed about 8 cans of soda worth of fructose.

Some biochemical effects of a mainly fruit diet in man - PubMed

Some biochemical effects of a mainly fruit diet in man

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here is Chris Masterjohn who specialized in fatty liver during his PhD and likely the most competent biochemically next to Ray Peat;

Here he reviews Vitamin A toxicity in the context of fatty liver, which is relevant to the people who follow Garrett and Grant. In the vitamin A thread this was also my hypothesis, before it got lost in the ocean that is that thread:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxA7pvJ9Bxc


And here he reiterates the fact that with proper choline status what you eat doesn't really matter, even though the hierarchy of liver fat causing foods is; fat, fructose and glucose. But never once is fruit blamed and rightfully so. Only 1-10 grams of carbs are converted to dietary fat a day. I was a fruitarian, never once did i have any troubles with my liver, and i pounded the fruit, i mean just massive amounts. Later I started to up my fat as I got off the vegan train and that's when all my issues started.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AyiW3MWfEI


And i know its not fashionable but a hyperpalatable hypercaloric diet with sedentariness is a huge factor in all of this on par with not getting enough choline. The macro wars take a deep step back when viewed in the previous light.

 

[nomoreketones]

Later I started to up my fat as I got off the vegan train and that's when all my issues started.

What were your fat sources when your issues started?

 

[campsuz]

There are a lot of health theories circulating that fall flat on their face. Denise Minger wrote a thorough article years ago about wild fruit being as sweet, if not sweeter, than cultivated fruit and I can vouch for that. My family owns acres of land and wild raspberries and blackberries grow in abundance here. These berries taste nothing like their supermarket counterparts. They are as sweet as candy and my refractometer confirms it. The Brix on our wild berries are much higher than the cultivated, supermarket berries and I find them to be better tolerated too. So many things factor into why this is, but ripeness and growing conditions play a major role in a fruit’s sweetness and mineral content (Brix) and the amount of allergenic compounds it contains.

Fruit and/or honey has comprised at least 1/3 of my calories for the last 18 years, at least 1/2 of my calories for roughly 14 years of that and almost all my calories for the roughly 8 years total that I followed a fruitarian diet. I’ve been meticulous with my diet experiments and note taking since I was a teen and have gotten routine testing, as much as every 6 weeks, for the last 17 years, and much of what I’ve seen stated as “truth” in health circles does not align with my experience. In regards to the theory that fructose is a poison to the liver, my gallbladder disease (stones and biliary sludge) resolved while consuming upwards of 4 liters of fresh pressed fruit juice daily, and it was proven via before and after ultrasounds so for me it’s not harmful, but for someone like tca300 whose body doesn’t produce a necessary enzyme, it is. Context matters, something Ray stressed the importance of.

RealNeat, you bring up a good point about our anatomy compared to other primates. I posted about human gut morphology in relation to frugivores, and also faunivores, in this thread:

The only way to produce atherosclerosis in carnivores is to take out the thyroid gland;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/ Very interesting read, but what catched my attention the most, was the beginning. Is atherosclerosis a disease affecting all animals or only certain animals? Atherosclerosis affects only herbivores. Dogs, cats, tigers, and lions can be...

raypeatforum.com

all of the toxic effects of "fructose" can actually just be attributed to the fact that sodium benezoate is an extreme metabolism poison and is added to fruit juices and all corn syrup in the americas. in fact, they don't have to label it as being an additive if they spray the inside of the bottle with it before hand.

 

[Alpha]

Forum memberr @tyw figured this out long ago, fructose is poison. Sure wish I would have listened to @tyw back then. The liver sees it as a toxin and clears it as such while being a burden at the same time. So table sugar is poison, Mexican coke is poison, ice cream poison, and on and on. Stop poisoning the liver and incredible things start to happen. :)


View: https://twitter.com/Will_of_Europa/status/1733022698995929541

Thanks for this Charlie, finally people here are starting to realize. It needs to be made clear as in my other thread that sugar is not inherently bad, but processed sugar is, or in other words, sugar in absence of fiber and micronutrients that helps the body to metabolize and dispose of glucose and fructose. Fruits should be your only source of fructose or sucrose, period. This does not include fruit juices.

 

[hierundjetzt]

Thanks for this Charlie, finally people here are starting to realize. It needs to be made clear as in my other thread that sugar is not inherently bad, but processed sugar is, or in other words, sugar in absence of fiber and micronutrients that helps the body to metabolize and dispose of glucose and fructose. Fruits should be your only source of fructose or sucrose, period. This does not include fruit juices.

I don't think that it has been claimed that fruit are acceptable, quite the contrary in fact. (I myself am not convinced that fruit are bad for you due to the fructose content)

 

[charlie]

Fruits should be your only source of fructose or sucrose, period. This does not include fruit juices.

Exactly.

 

[Alpha]

I don't think that it has been claimed that fruit are acceptable, quite the contrary in fact. (I myself am not convinced that fruit are bad for you due to the fructose content)

For a healthy liver, there is nothing with fruits, in moderation.

 

[hierundjetzt]

For a healthy liver, there is nothing with fruits, in moderation.

of course, I personally agree with you! But if you read this thread, you will find the opposite being laid out as a hypothesis. A very intersting discussion.