Help Can't Eat Anything Debilitating Excess Saliva

[Soren]

Small update, I've been slowly improving and I decided to try a little experiment, I took a capsule of vitamin E with dinner to see if it would cause another cholinergic crisis and low and behold I think it did. Shortly after I finished my meal I was having a real problem again with excess saliva.

 

[DarkKiller]

Small update, I've been slowly improving and I decided to try a little experiment, I took a capsule of vitamin E with dinner to see if it would cause another cholinergic crisis and low and behold I think it did. Shortly after I finished my meal I was having a real problem again with excess saliva.

How are you doing now and what is your current macros like?

 

[Soren]

How are you doing now and what is your current macros like?

Big improvement since I dropped the liver and shilajit, still have minor issues on occasion with excess saliva upon eating but often no problems at all and when I do have problems it is no way near as bad as before. For some reason wine always causes issues. Don't have exact macros but I have lots of sugar and carbs I probably am not getting quite enough protein in everyday, fat is moderate.

 

[tac a wah]

I have experienced this issue by a friend of mine, and it turned out to be extremely high calcium, from hyper-Parathyroidism. could it be a calcium issue brought on by the balancing effect of high K ?

 

[Perry Staltic]

For some reason wine always causes issues.

Apparently, resveratrol (wine) is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAO-A), which would inhibit serotonin metabolism (i.e., increase it).

(PDF) Selectivity of Dietary Phenolics for Inhibition of Human Monoamine Oxidases A and B

PDF | Monoamine oxidases (MAOs) regulate local levels of neurotransmitters such as dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin and thus have been targeted... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

 

[Soren]

I have experienced this issue by a friend of mine, and it turned out to be extremely high calcium, from hyper-Parathyroidism. could it be a calcium issue brought on by the balancing effect of high K ?

Interesting any idea if shilajit or eating liver could cause hyper-parathyroidism?

 

[Soren]

Apparently, resveratrol (wine) is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAO-A), which would inhibit serotonin metabolism (i.e., increase it).

(PDF) Selectivity of Dietary Phenolics for Inhibition of Human Monoamine Oxidases A and B

PDF | Monoamine oxidases (MAOs) regulate local levels of neurotransmitters such as dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin and thus have been targeted... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

yes but MAO-A inhibitors such as Methylene blue seemed to help reduce my symptoms but drinking wine seemed to make them worse.

 

[Soren]

yes but MAO-A inhibitors such as Methylene blue seemed to help reduce my symptoms but drinking wine seemed to make them worse.

But weirdly cyprohepatadine seemed to help so maybe Methylene blue had a positive effect for a different reason.

 

[Perry Staltic]

yes but MAO-A inhibitors such as Methylene blue seemed to help reduce my symptoms but drinking wine seemed to make them worse.

I wonder if there is a dose issue. I doubt there is much resveratrol in wine, and resveratrol mostly inhibits MAO-A, but also MAO-B somewhat. But MB inhibits both A and B equally at higher doses. Have no idea if that corresponds with what you dose.

 

[dukesbobby777]

Clonidine is another one you could have tried. Personally i don’t get that much of a dry mouth by cyproheptadine but clonidine (taken at 100mcg p/d) dries it out like nothing else.

 

[redsun]

Big improvement since I dropped the liver and shilajit, still have minor issues on occasion with excess saliva upon eating but often no problems at all and when I do have problems it is no way near as bad as before. For some reason wine always causes issues. Don't have exact macros but I have lots of sugar and carbs I probably am not getting quite enough protein in everyday, fat is moderate.

Alcohol raises histamine levels, which can contribute to hypersalivation.

Alcohol-histamine interactions - PubMed

Alcohol and histamine metabolic pathways in the body have the common enzymes aldehyde dehydrogenase and aldehyde oxidase. The metabolite of ethanol, acetaldehyde, can effectively compete with the metabolites of histamine, methylimidazole acetaldehyde, and imidazole acetaldehyde. At the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"At the periphery, alcohol and acetaldehyde liberate histamine from its store in mast cells and depress histamine elimination by inhibiting diamine oxidase, resulting in elevated histamine levels in tissues."

 

[Soren]

Alcohol raises histamine levels, which can contribute to hypersalivation.

Alcohol-histamine interactions - PubMed

Alcohol and histamine metabolic pathways in the body have the common enzymes aldehyde dehydrogenase and aldehyde oxidase. The metabolite of ethanol, acetaldehyde, can effectively compete with the metabolites of histamine, methylimidazole acetaldehyde, and imidazole acetaldehyde. At the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"At the periphery, alcohol and acetaldehyde liberate histamine from its store in mast cells and depress histamine elimination by inhibiting diamine oxidase, resulting in elevated histamine levels in tissues."

Any thoughts if high dose Niacin would deplete histamine from mast cells in a semi-permanent way?

 

[redsun]

Any thoughts if high dose Niacin would deplete histamine from mast cells in a semi-permanent way?

It would not help. Even if it is depleted somewhat, it will make it worse by depleting methyl donors since those are used to get rid of niacin. SAM-e, calcium can deplete histamine by deactivating it or promoting its release (calcium).

 

[Soren]

So the problem seems to be persisting although not as bad as before but whenever I eat certain foods or take certain supplements it seems to come back and I think I possibly might have the cause. L acetylcholinesterase (AChE), which is the enzyme that is used to break down acetylcholine (ACh).

Apparently coffee is an an AChE inhibitor and I do drink a decent amount of that.

@redsun or anyone else, have any idea on how to increase AChE? Ray says that AChE is good because it helps to prevent the excitotoxicity that too much ACh can cause.

I really do think that a fundamental issue with the gut bacteria may be an underlying cause. Hopefully some camphosol should resolve the issue.

 

[Soren]

Thought I had it under control again but seems to have popped back up when I started taking some new supplements.

I began taking Tyromix (t3 & t4) 6keto-p4 and camphosal. I'm thinking that it is the camphosal that is having the effect any thoughts @redsun

 

[Nemo]

Thought I had it under control again but seems to have popped back up when I started taking some new supplements.

I began taking Tyromix (t3 & t4) 6keto-p4 and camphosal. I'm thinking that it is the camphosal that is having the effect any thoughts @redsun

I believe thyroid enhances cholinergic activity as well, Soren: Thyroid hormones, brain function and cognition: a brief review - PubMed

 

[Soren]

I believe thyroid enhances cholinergic activity as well, Soren: Thyroid hormones, brain function and cognition: a brief review - PubMed

Yes but what I have read from this really great article written by @Hans is that t3 is Anticholinergic so yes it is involved but it should act to counter the excess saliva due to high acetylcholine. Unless I have misunderstood.

The high acetylcholine syndrome » MENELITE

 

[Soren]

Ok recently things have gotten a lot worse can't eat ANYTHING without this problem coming up to some degree. In the morning it seems to be worse. Just had one cup of coffee and the excess saliva made me vomit my guts up and I'm still spitting like someone with ten ton of dip in his mouth.

I've been taking supplements that supposedly help with this problem and nothing seems to have got rid of it.

I don't know why it has suddenly come back with a vengeance I think it might be because I had been taking T3 for about a month and decided to stop because the effect it was having on my body odour. T3 I think helps breakdown acetylcholine so now that I have less maybe that is why things are so bad. It always seems to be worse in the mornings.

 

[redsun]

Ok recently things have gotten a lot worse can't eat ANYTHING without this problem coming up to some degree. In the morning it seems to be worse. Just had one cup of coffee and the excess saliva made me vomit my guts up and I'm still spitting like someone with ten ton of dip in his mouth.

I've been taking supplements that supposedly help with this problem and nothing seems to have got rid of it.

I don't know why it has suddenly come back with a vengeance I think it might be because I had been taking T3 for about a month and decided to stop because the effect it was having on my body odour. T3 I think helps breakdown acetylcholine so now that I have less maybe that is why things are so bad. It always seems to be worse in the mornings.

T3 speeds up the metabolism so can activate the sympathetic nervous system as well, counteracting Ach.

You don't happen to have symptoms of high histamine as well right? Like allergies, prone to OCD, perfectionism tendencies, depression, high motivation, lean build etc. Because high histamine amplifies cholinergic activity, resulting in excess saliva, but this can also manifest (and often does) as excess tears, mucus, easily sweat.

 

[Soren]

T3 speeds up the metabolism so can activate the sympathetic nervous system as well, counteracting Ach.

You don't happen to have symptoms of high histamine as well right? Like allergies, prone to OCD, perfectionism tendencies, depression, high motivation, lean build etc. Because high histamine amplifies cholinergic activity, resulting in excess saliva, but this can also manifest (and often does) as excess tears, mucus, easily sweat.

No OCD, no depression, not a very lean build, no allergies (that i am aware of), I guess I do sweat easily. Tried taking larger doses of magensium, cyproheptadine and progesterone as I have read that these things can counteract the excess saliva issue and there has been some improvement although it is far from gone completely.