Probiotics Revisited From Gut-Expert Ray Medina

[managing]

dave-
This is not Peatian,
but here's something you might consider trying:

Get some Nystatin--it's an antifungal/anti-yeast which is not systemic, will stay in the gut.
Do diagnosis by treatment.
If you take round of Nystatin, and you feel better, then that will give you some strong clues
as to where to go next.

S. boulardii is a yeast you can take which kills the candida yeast.
So you could try that in the same vein,
although I don't think it as strong as Nystatin.
(Don't take the boulardii at the same time you take the Nystatin.)

How does your tongue look? Not just now, but typically, usually, over time...?
Do you have any discomfort, bloating, pain on the right abdominal side?

But if its doing something you will feel really, really lousy before you feel better. Cascara, Magnesium, caffeine, etc called for to move dead fungus out of intestines as rapidly as possible.

 

[managing]

Thanks for the support.
For resistant starch, I was going to cook the potato and let it cool, but I'm not terribly interested in RS at the moment; more so a strong anti-biotic followed by a probiotic and prebiotic.

When I fast, my mood improves dramatically.

My bowel movements are diarrhea, but there's some minimal constipation with some bleeding. The main thing is the chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, and lack of motivation/concentration that goes along with these. The depression of getting a condition like this at a young age compounds the negative mood effects of an inflamed gut. My sleep schedule is moving toward insomnia and 13-hour blocks of sleep, where I can't move.

I do live in a sunny place; sometimes I go outside, but I use two red lights that shine on me throughout the day, and they help me immensely. As long as I'm under these lights, I usually do not have pain.

Cravings: chocolate, sometimes potatoes with coconut oil and salt, and often coffee. I crave coffee with milk and sugar quite a bit. I sometimes crave OJ. I don't usually crave protein.
I will look into nystatin. I've heard very good things about S. Boulardii, so I might purchase a separate product with this in it.

Yeast, fungus, and viral infections are something I've considered. I don't think I have a huge problem with heavy metals, but I don't know. Elevated monocytes point to a virus. For my tongue, I used to have white thrush all the time, but now it's just the color of the food I eat. (Maybe it was the milk before). It's easy to scrape off with my tongue scraper, and I believe it's an improvement from previously.

Thanks, Peat would be proud.

If you "used to" have thrush, and you haven't taken steps to eliminate fungus, its likely still there. I don't care how many decades its been. It can shrink and grow in response to myriad factors. But gone? no.

 

[narouz]

Maybe the antibiotic was the problem. .

Quite possibly, in my opinion.
Again, not Peatian but...
I started having the coated tongue thing after dabbling in non-full course (as per standard medicine) dosing of antibiotics--along Peat lines.

It is a pretty widespread notion--
that antibiotics wipe out the good guys,
opening the door to bad guys, including candida.
Peat seems to poo poo it, but I think it has been the case with me.
Also, see thebigpeatowski's long thread.

Odd, but possibly important wrinkle with the diagnosis by treatment with Nystatin:
the thing is, some say--and it seemed to be the case with me--
that a fungal infection often takes hold down in the very end of the small intestine--
right before the colon
at the cecum area.
Any anti-fungal will likely have a hard time getting through the stomach acid
in strong enough force to knock out the fungus.

So what I did--and this is inefficient, but I really wanted to do it right...
I bought some Syntol--an excellent probiotic with a special capsule
which carries the contents through the stomach acid
and down into the lower bowel, cecal area.
Dumped the contents of Syntol capsules into another container for later use.
Used the capsules to load in Nystatin.

Also, took that in a semi-fasting state--after eating nothing for 12-14 hours.

Did this in combination with some high quality probiotics
including the Klare product mentioned above.
Also used LactoFerrin with this regime--but be careful: I think it lowered my iron too much.
(iron is said by some to feed fungus/yeast, but we need it too, so...tricky here).

 

[DaveFoster]

How long have you been off the antibiotic @DaveFoster?

Just about 2 weeks.

Were you raised under pressure to become a overachiever? I'm not a soul reader but there are little things in the way you write that made me think that, I can be wrong though.
Anyway, living under pressure makes you lose the desire for protein because you cannot digest it well when you're under stress. Paul Eck wrote a bit about that, he even went further to speculate that vegetarians start losing their interest for animal protein gradually as a defensive measure: first ruminant meat, then poultry, then fishes.
Protein needs under stress are increased, but in prolonged stress you cannot keep up and match the needs, so you know the snow ball story..
If there's something that almost every article that I read so far regarding nutrition and immunity agree on is that protein is one of the most important anti-infective nutrients.
If something mentioned relates to you, you can google kwashiorkor + symptom.

Some other things that I would consider:
Magnesium malate or bicarbonate.
Selenium, vit C are two things that are worth experimenting more or less.
Lowering K2?
More sun exposure.
A1/A2 milk.
I would also evaluate if I'm not getting things in excess.

5 mg K2, I did the magnesium thing, but I drink plenty of OJ. Sun exposure =/= red light? I get plenty of the latter. Can't afford the A2 milk. I don't drink TOO much milk any more, but I still drink plenty.

But if its doing something you will feel really, really lousy before you feel better. Cascara, Magnesium, caffeine, etc called for to move dead fungus out of intestines as rapidly as possible.

I feel pretty lousy; I don't know how this can be worse. Bedridden maybe? Definitely that. My RT3 is high as well, which is odd, since I supplement a relatively high ratio of T3:T4, and I'm careful about T4.

If you "used to" have thrush, and you haven't taken steps to eliminate fungus, its likely still there. I don't care how many decades its been. It can shrink and grow in response to myriad factors. But gone? no.

Quite possibly, in my opinion.
Again, not Peatian but...
I started having the coated tongue thing after dabbling in non-full course (as per standard medicine) dosing of antibiotics--along Peat lines.

It is a pretty widespread notion--
that antibiotics wipe out the good guys,
opening the door to bad guys, including candida.
Peat seems to poo poo it, but I think it has been the case with me.
Also, see thebigpeatowski's long thread.

Odd, but possibly important wrinkle with the diagnosis by treatment with Nystatin:
the thing is, some say--and it seemed to be the case with me--
that a fungal infection often takes hold down in the very end of the small intestine--
right before the colon
at the cecum area.
Any anti-fungal will likely have a hard time getting through the stomach acid
in strong enough force to knock out the fungus.

So what I did--and this is inefficient, but I really wanted to do it right...
I bought some Syntol--an excellent probiotic with a special capsule
which carries the contents through the stomach acid
and down into the lower bowel, cecal area.
Dumped the contents of Syntol capsules into another container for later use.
Used the capsules to load in Nystatin.

Also, took that in a semi-fasting state--after eating nothing for 12-14 hours.

Did this in combination with some high quality probiotics
including the Klare product mentioned above.
Also used LactoFerrin with this regime--but be careful: I think it lowered my iron too much.
(iron is said by some to feed fungus/yeast, but we need it too, so...tricky here).

Thanks for writing that out, narouz. What's the thread you're speaking of by thebigpeatowski?

I copied and pasted your Syntol thing. I'll try it if the other things fail. Maybe I'll try it any way.

 

[narouz]

Thanks for writing that out, narouz. What's the thread you're speaking of by thebigpeatowski?
I copied and pasted your Syntol thing. I'll try it if the other things fail. Maybe I'll try it any way.

I think it is, "The Best of Times, The Worst of Times," or something like that.
Like 60 pages long.
In the last part, last 10 ot 20 pages as I recall, she talks about her successes with Nystatin.

Nystatin is hard to get, but can be got.
It's kinda expensive.
But it's worth it, to me, if you suspect you might have a fungal infection in the gut.

You've tried antibiotics--it hasn't worked, right?

Nystatin is pretty non-toxic if used correctly.
I found that to be the case, in my experience--so did BigP.
So it is a good experiment
if you've tried a lot of things,
and nothing seems to work.
If you feel better after a round, well...that tells you something.

You can try the same approach--Syntol capsule, fasting--
but using S. boulardii instead of Nystatin.
It's just not as clear-cut of a result, in my experience.
But much more cheaply and easily done than the Nystatin version.

 

[managing]

Just about 2 weeks.


I feel pretty lousy; I don't know how this can be worse. Bedridden maybe? Definitely that. My RT3 is high as well, which is odd, since I supplement a relatively high ratio of T3:T4, and I'm careful about T4..

I mean "lousy" in specific ways. As the fungi die off, you get an exponential increasae in certain endotoxins. Symptoms are headache, itchy, red patches, hot flashes, anxiety, etc.

This is a good primer:
YEAST PROBLEMS | Autism360

But the most important thing to remember is that if these things happen, it kind of is proof that you will benefit in th elong run. I felt crappy through day 6 and then better each day thereafter. I am on day 12 now. The endotoxin reaction 1 hr after taking nystatin is now tolerable w/o activated charcoal, but I am still taking it because why expose yourself to more endotox than necessary? Still doing cascara too for same reason. When the endotoxin response to the nystatin disappears altogether, I'll taper off cascara (2x/day now).

I intend to use Flowers of Sulfur 1x day after run the course of nystatin for maintenance. Probably would work for clearing, but definitely not in 3 days as RP suggests. I've tried that. Still I decided to go big w/ nystatin for first phase. I've also definitely seen proof in the bowl, if you know what I mean, that the Nystatin was definitely clearing out mucous/film.

@narouz : for what its worth, the version I took is an enteric coated tablet. And the main ingredients appear to be polymeric, so may stand up to acid relatively well. Ive definitely felt the effect travel through the digestive tract as I go along.

 

[Amazoniac]

Complete guide to light therapy dosing - Red Light Man

Ray wrote about sun exposure and incidence of things like MS, arthritis, and others. He also wrote how important quality protein is for those conditions. Kwashiorkor might be an extreme example that's distant from your reality, however when you're under constant stress, it mimics that condition quite well.

The Mystery of Milk and Digestive issues

Can you take some time off? I mean, no internet, no meetings, and everything that you can do to remove and reintroduce those things later to be able to realize how much stress you're actually under. You're not interested in this but you're a smart guy, you must put a lot of pressure on yourself to succeed in all areas.

Have you considered a low dose of a safe antibiotic for longer in combination with other strategies?
I was going to post this on a dedicated thread, but here it is in case you're interested: http://base.dnsgb.com.ua/files/book/Agriculture/Foods/Antimicrobials-in-Food.pdf
pg. 327 onwards

What happens when you stop taking thyroid for a considerable period?

 

[DaveFoster]

I think it is, "The Best of Times, The Worst of Times," or something like that.
Like 60 pages long.
In the last part, last 10 ot 20 pages as I recall, she talks about her successes with Nystatin.

Nystatin is hard to get, but can be got.
It's kinda expensive.
But it's worth it, to me, if you suspect you might have a fungal infection in the gut.

You've tried antibiotics--it hasn't worked, right?

Nystatin is pretty non-toxic if used correctly.
I found that to be the case, in my experience--so did BigP.
So it is a good experiment
if you've tried a lot of things,
and nothing seems to work.
If you feel better after a round, well...that tells you something.

You can try the same approach--Syntol capsule, fasting--
but using S. boulardii instead of Nystatin.
It's just not as clear-cut of a result, in my experience.
But much more cheaply and easily done than the Nystatin version.

Thank you for the explanation, narouz. I'll try a Syntol capsule with S. Boulardii, as my doctor was not obliged to do the nystatin.

I mean "lousy" in specific ways. As the fungi die off, you get an exponential increasae in certain endotoxins. Symptoms are headache, itchy, red patches, hot flashes, anxiety, etc.

This is a good primer:
YEAST PROBLEMS | Autism360

But the most important thing to remember is that if these things happen, it kind of is proof that you will benefit in th elong run. I felt crappy through day 6 and then better each day thereafter. I am on day 12 now. The endotoxin reaction 1 hr after taking nystatin is now tolerable w/o activated charcoal, but I am still taking it because why expose yourself to more endotox than necessary? Still doing cascara too for same reason. When the endotoxin response to the nystatin disappears altogether, I'll taper off cascara (2x/day now).

I intend to use Flowers of Sulfur 1x day after run the course of nystatin for maintenance. Probably would work for clearing, but definitely not in 3 days as RP suggests. I've tried that. Still I decided to go big w/ nystatin for first phase. I've also definitely seen proof in the bowl, if you know what I mean, that the Nystatin was definitely clearing out mucous/film.

@narouz : for what its worth, the version I took is an enteric coated tablet. And the main ingredients appear to be polymeric, so may stand up to acid relatively well. Ive definitely felt the effect travel through the digestive tract as I go along.

That is a great link; thank you for that.

Complete guide to light therapy dosing - Red Light Man

Ray wrote about sun exposure and incidence of things like MS, arthritis, and others. He also wrote how important quality protein is for those conditions. Kwashiorkor might be an extreme example that's distant from your reality, however when you're under constant stress, it mimics that condition quite well.

The Mystery of Milk and Digestive issues

Can you take some time off? I mean, no internet, no meetings, and everything that you can do to remove and reintroduce those things later to be able to realize how much stress you're actually under. You're not interested in this but you're a smart guy, you must put a lot of pressure on yourself to succeed in all areas.

Have you considered a low dose of a safe antibiotic for longer in combination with other strategies?
I was going to post this on a dedicated thread, but here it is in case you're interested: http://base.dnsgb.com.ua/files/book/Agriculture/Foods/Antimicrobials-in-Food.pdf
pg. 327 onwards

What happens when you stop taking thyroid for a considerable period?

I'm doing exactly; this taking all kinds of time off. I still have anxiety, but I guess it's that time in my life. I'm on 0.75 grains NDT and some supplemental T3; I just upped to 1 grain, not a major dose. I have CFS and fibro still. My doctor suggests the following: metronidazole plus keflex to treat SIBO.

This is what my insurance covers. Does anyone know if these are a safe option? I'd follow that up with some heavy probiotics, S. Boulardii (in a Syntol capsule probably) and a prebiotic. Elixa would be in there, so it would be a very large amount of gram positives entering into my system. I have a LOT of activated charcoal on hand in case of Herxheimer reaction.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Charcoal takes half a day to get to your colon...

 

[DaveFoster]

Charcoal takes half a day to get to your colon...

Don't dissuade me Such, I must overwhelm my colon with microbes!

 

[Such_Saturation]

Don't dissuade me Such, I must overwhelm my colon with microbes!

 

[lollipop]

Hi @DaveFoster I made this post a while back in the Fat and Endotoxins thread and have not figured out how to get a link to my direct post so copy pasted for you:

Hi @EIRE24 - I can tell you what I did for me and my husband to heal our guts after long suffering - trying everything else and it not working. It is not a Ray Peat recommendation so take it as you will.

High high doses on empty stomach of digestive enzymes (see photo - large bottle) - like 10 twice daily (one just before bed). My husband's gut was not as bad as mine. I only gave him 10 once a day at night.

AND used the combo (see photo) of all three with each meal.

The research behind it is on this site:

Enzyme Dosing Guidelines

Worked like a charm! Within one week of high dosing on empty stomach between food - my gut was 85 % better. Within a month totally healed. Why I bring this up is it also healed my husband's facial and scalp acne. I also put tea tree oil on the red bumps morning and night. The two together worked like a charm.

My memory serves me that Ray has suggested enzymes when all else failed. Don't quote me on that one.

Attached Files:

• 
  image.jpeg
  

 

[Such_Saturation]

I use beef broth to get an instant steel gut. But it takes 10 dollars to make one quart

 

[narouz]

Thank you for the explanation, narouz. I'll try a Syntol capsule with S. Boulardii, as my doctor was not obliged to do the nystatin.

Dave-
When you were a kid, did you take a lot of antibiotics?
And/or did you swim a lot in chlorinated pools?

 

[DaveFoster]

I use beef broth to get an instant steel gut. But it takes 10 dollars to make one quart

That's out of my budget. Now let me go spend $100 on haidut's supps...

Hi @DaveFoster I made this post a while back in the Fat and Endotoxins thread and have not figured out how to get a link to my direct post so copy pasted for you:

Hi @EIRE24 - I can tell you what I did for me and my husband to heal our guts after long suffering - trying everything else and it not working. It is not a Ray Peat recommendation so take it as you will.

High high doses on empty stomach of digestive enzymes (see photo - large bottle) - like 10 twice daily (one just before bed). My husband's gut was not as bad as mine. I only gave him 10 once a day at night.

AND used the combo (see photo) of all three with each meal.

The research behind it is on this site:

Enzyme Dosing Guidelines

Worked like a charm! Within one week of high dosing on empty stomach between food - my gut was 85 % better. Within a month totally healed. Why I bring this up is it also healed my husband's facial and scalp acne. I also put tea tree oil on the red bumps morning and night. The two together worked like a charm.

My memory serves me that Ray has suggested enzymes when all else failed. Don't quote me on that one.

Attached Files:

• 
  image.jpeg

If my current protocol doesn't work, I'll try this.

Dave-
When you were a kid, did you take a lot of antibiotics?
And/or did you swim a lot in chlorinated pools?

Actually yes; both of these.

I had frequent ear infections as a child, along with a dog bite I remember being treated with antibiotics. I joined the high school swim team and did that for a year as well.

 

[narouz]

Actually yes; both of these.

I had frequent ear infections as a child, along with a dog bite I remember being treated with antibiotics. I joined the high school swim team and did that for a year as well.

There's one doctor who treats yeast a lot--I think he said like over a thousand people.
He said he had noticed over the years a number of commonalities amongst patients with yeast,
but the #1 and #2 leading experiences were
#1. having received a lot of antibiotics as a child
#2. spending a lot of time in chlorinated pools as a kid

I have both of those indicators big time--
had ear aches when I was like 4 yrs old or so,
and took penicillin and sulpha for a year.
Also was on swim team and lifeguard in summers from 10-17 yrs old--
and we used a Lot of chlorine in our pool,
you could Really smell it and it lingered in swimsuits, towels, hair, skin, etc...

Have you seen this?

 

[Velve921]

I appreciate the time you put into that. This complicates the matter. Maybe the antibiotic was the problem. This is difficult to deal with. I'm getting some good results from kefir, (although it's very hard to separate variables). I'll have to put some thought into this.

Dave,

Have you considered any anti-estrogen/endotoxin foods such as raw carrot, boiled mushrooms, or bamboo shoots? All 3 raise my RHR to 85-92...mushrooms raise it the most. All 3 increase elimination after consumption. Boiled mushrooms give me an intense relaxation; therefore, I always do them in the evening. I know Dr. Peat has talked extensively about the value of these superfoods. Below are some links to Rob Turner's blog.

On a side note (not that it's important to your case specifically), but bamboo shoots eliminate my Body Odor.

Protective Bamboo Shoots – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
Ray Peat, PhD on the Benefits of the Raw Carrot – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Some people do fine with starch depending on the digestive tract..but I have found for myself and many other people that starch can yield some negative side effects. I love potatoes more than anything but I've had to limit them immensely.

Sorry to hear about your struggles my friend. Do your best to stay positive and keep chipping away!

 

[Velve921]

 

[DaveFoster]

​

Dave,

Have you considered any anti-estrogen/endotoxin foods such as raw carrot, boiled mushrooms, or bamboo shoots? All 3 raise my RHR to 85-92...mushrooms raise it the most. All 3 increase elimination after consumption. Boiled mushrooms give me an intense relaxation; therefore, I always do them in the evening. I know Dr. Peat has talked extensively about the value of these superfoods. Below are some links to Rob Turner's blog.

On a side note (not that it's important to your case specifically), but bamboo shoots eliminate my Body Odor.

Protective Bamboo Shoots – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
Ray Peat, PhD on the Benefits of the Raw Carrot – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Some people do fine with starch depending on the digestive tract..but I have found for myself and many other people that starch can yield some negative side effects. I love potatoes more than anything but I've had to limit them immensely.

Sorry to hear about your struggles my friend. Do your best to stay positive and keep chipping away!

Thank you; I will get some bamboo shoots and mushrooms. Yum on the mushrooms.

Just watched that yesterday.

 

[DaveFoster]

There's one doctor who treats yeast a lot--I think he said like over a thousand people.
He said he had noticed over the years a number of commonalities amongst patients with yeast,
but the #1 and #2 leading experiences were
#1. having received a lot of antibiotics as a child
#2. spending a lot of time in chlorinated pools as a kid

I have both of those indicators big time--
had ear aches when I was like 4 yrs old or so,
and took penicillin and sulpha for a year.
Also was on swim team and lifeguard in summers from 10-17 yrs old--
and we used a Lot of chlorine in our pool,
you could Really smell it and it lingered in swimsuits, towels, hair, skin, etc...

Have you seen this?

Interesting. Thanks, narouz. I just ordered some S. Boulardii and will begin taking it for candida.