Progesterone: Is Proge e OK during folicular phase to prevent migraine?

[Ucume]

This post is both to find insights from the community and/or to leave my own experiment for other women to benefit from in the future:

After over 10 years of left temple migraines and after humongous research (done by myself and my fiancé as alternative health practitioners and many years followers of Peat's and other masters teachings) we've finally pinned down that my migraine is triggered by the re-surge of estrogen that naturally happens around day 3 to 5 of the cycle. It's a left side pain that doesn't resolve with ANY painkiller (stopped trying them 7 years ago anyway) and that starts within those days. If I don't get it by day 5 of cycle I won't get it that month at all. I don't get sensitivity to light or noise or aura. Just relentless ache that lasts 3-4 days , day and night, ALWAYS. Ice is my only friend.

Needless to say my lifestyle, eating, supplements, thyroid, etc. have been/are taken care of.

By now I know I was left with luteal phase deficiency (aka estrogen dominance) by too many years on the pill (20 years on and off) and because they gave it to me way too young (13). I've been off of it for 7 years now and I don't take any allopathic drugs (I also abandoned allopathic medicine those many years ago, they did way more bad than good and I'm not interested in what they do).

I'm recovering from the Progesterone deficiency now using Progre e during my luteal phase (post ovulation) but was wondering if anyone has experience or knowledge on using it from days 3 to 5 to prevent a migraine attack (presumably by raising the progesterone so it opposes the surge in estrogen that naturally happens during a woman's cycle on those days and which seems to trigger my migraine).

I know using Progesterone during the folicular part of the cycle can cause trouble with ovulation (i.e. prevent it), but since it'd be so early in the cycle and I don't usually ovulate until days 14-16 I think this could work.

I'm going to try it anyway and report in case this will help any woman here in the future, but also thought I'd love insight, opinions, experience if anyone has it.

Thanks, community!

 

[InChristAlone]

I think a more useful way to think about this is to consider what's actually happening every cycle. After ovulation progesterone rises and the liver is a bit cholestatic during this period to protect any growing baby from the toxins coming out of the liver. Then when progesterone falls the liver again begins to function normally and is going through it's detoxification of excess hormones. If we were to give more progesterone during this phase we'd be preventing this natural cycle, or just delaying it. I know women who end up just using progest-e all the time because if they go off the liver starts it's cycle of detoxification and causes symptoms. You definitely don't want to be stuck doing that. I know there are some who believe they forced out enough estrogen to then go back to more normal doses, but I do wonder if that's actually what's happening or if it's just a theory.

You could try just plain vitamin E as I think that might work the same in opposing estrogen. It is very anti-estrogen. But the body should be able to get rid of excess estrogen by itself. If it's not like I said this indicates some level of cholestatis. Women are recovering from excess estrogen using the bean protocol (or psyllium if they can't eat beans). It mops up the bile along with the conjugated hormones, otherwise they are just reabsorbed to be dealt with again by the liver. I think Ray addressed this with the carrot salad. But there's a huge risk with carrots and excess beta carotene. Particularly if you add coconut oil like he says to do. I wouldn't recommend it, but I definitely recommend some form of fiber therapy for excess hormones.

 

[Happycat]

It's not an exact quote, but Dr Peat mentioned that women should take a break from progestetone during follicular phase, unless they are trying to overcome some serious symptoms.

I think your migraines are a serious symptom and progesterone during follicular phase can help.
Women's bodies produce progesterone during this phase too, but less than during luteal phase. And if it's too little, maybe it's not enough to keep the estrogen in check.
I take progesterone all month long, but I take a bit less during follicular phase.

 

[Ucume]

I think a more useful way to think about this is to consider what's actually happening every cycle. After ovulation progesterone rises and the liver is a bit cholestatic during this period to protect any growing baby from the toxins coming out of the liver. Then when progesterone falls the liver again begins to function normally and is going through it's detoxification of excess hormones. If we were to give more progesterone during this phase we'd be preventing this natural cycle, or just delaying it. I know women who end up just using progest-e all the time because if they go off the liver starts it's cycle of detoxification and causes symptoms. You definitely don't want to be stuck doing that. I know there are some who believe they forced out enough estrogen to then go back to more normal doses, but I do wonder if that's actually what's happening or if it's just a theory.

You could try just plain vitamin E as I think that might work the same in opposing estrogen. It is very anti-estrogen. But the body should be able to get rid of excess estrogen by itself. If it's not like I said this indicates some level of cholestatis. Women are recovering from excess estrogen using the bean protocol (or psyllium if they can't eat beans). It mops up the bile along with the conjugated hormones, otherwise they are just reabsorbed to be dealt with again by the liver. I think Ray addressed this with the carrot salad. But there's a huge risk with carrots and excess beta carotene. Particularly if you add coconut oil like he says to do. I wouldn't recommend it, but I definitely recommend some form of fiber therapy for excess hormones.

Many many thanks for your detailed input. The thing with my case is I don’t actually have excess estrogen per se (agreed, we all have it! But you’ll understand what I mean :) ) but the problem comes from never having had enough progesterone due to a lifetime of the pill. So my symptoms come rather from years of unopposed “normal” estrogen. It’s “interesting” because the pill (I guess it was my pill or maybe also my mum’s as she took it before she had me) also made me quite androgenic (I have a more athletic/androgenic frame than a classic woman figure).

 

[Ucume]

It's not an exact quote, but Dr Peat mentioned that women should take a break from progestetone during follicular phase, unless they are trying to overcome some serious symptoms.

I think your migraines are a serious symptom and progesterone during follicular phase can help.
Women's bodies produce progesterone during this phase too, but less than during luteal phase. And if it's too little, maybe it's not enough to keep the estrogen in check.
I take progesterone all month long, but I take a bit less during follicular phase.

Thank you Happycat! :) So do you notice a difference if/when u stop for the follicular phase?
I’m planing to only take it during the luteal (I usually feel well during the follicular phase so shouldn’t need to take P) but with an extra dose for days 3 to 5 only to try prevent the triggering of the migraine hopefully!

 

[Peatress]

@InChristAlone

Cholestasis is caused by estrogen according to Dr. Peat. He said so in this interview when asked about it in relation to pregnancy.

Synthetic progesterone (progestin) has been known to induce cholestasis.

Cholestasis secondary to progesterone | ADC Fetal & Neonatal Edition

Synthetic progestins are estrogenic and not the same as natural progesterone.

 

[Happycat]

Thank you Happycat! :) So do you notice a difference if/when u stop for the follicular phase?
I’m planing to only take it during the luteal (I usually feel well during the follicular phase so shouldn’t need to take P) but with an extra dose for days 3 to 5 only to try prevent the triggering of the migraine hopefully!

Yes I do notice a difference, I try to take a break from day 1 of my cycle and sometimes I manage to go 3-4 days without progesterone.
But sometimes I only manage a day or two and I get a return of symptoms, so I go back on it.

 

[charlie]

Cholestasis is caused by estrogen according to Dr. Peat.

Cholestasis is caused by the Ray Peat diet and many of his suggestions.

 

[Peatress]

Cholestasis is caused by the Ray Peat diet and his suggestions.

More baiting!

 

[Peatress]

Systemic Causes of Cholestasis

 

[charlie]

Systemic Causes of Cholestasis

Not one single mention of poison "vitamin A" or many of the substances like antibiotics and antihistamines that cause cholestasis that Ray Peat recommends. Some of Peats recommendations lcause "Vanishing bile duct syndrome" literally destroying the liver.

View: https://twitter.com/thepowerofozone/status/1653388638657413121

 

[Peatress]

List which antibiotics/antihistamine that Ray told you to take which gave you cholestasis @charlie

 

[Peatress]

Sorry for derailing your thread. You might find this book helpful

From PMS to Menopause Book — Balanced Body Mind

A physical book by Ray Peat “Most of the ideas about health and hormones that are being propagated are fraudulent commercial inventions. In this setting, it is impossible to have any sense of security about the way you are living unless you make the effort to critically examine the claims you hear

www.balancedbodymind.com

 

[InChristAlone]

Many many thanks for your detailed input. The thing with my case is I don’t actually have excess estrogen per se (agreed, we all have it! But you’ll understand what I mean :) ) but the problem comes from never having had enough progesterone due to a lifetime of the pill. So my symptoms come rather from years of unopposed “normal” estrogen. It’s “interesting” because the pill (I guess it was my pill or maybe also my mum’s as she took it before she had me) also made me quite androgenic (I have a more athletic/androgenic frame than a classic woman figure).

If you have an athletic figure are you sure you are ovulating? Is your cycle 28 days? How heavy do you bleed? These are first step questions when it comes to whether or not you need hormone replacement therapy. (Let's call it what it is). Being too low in fat could be causing the egg not to be released because the body senses there isn't enough food for survival. Women in general don't eat enough and think being thin means healthy and sexy. Even Ray Peat enjoyed painting women that I would call full of youthful estrogen, curvy voluptuous women. (I took didn't have many curves, I was also more athletic built, I now have more estrogenic curves thanks to ice cream).

 

[Ucume]

If you have an athletic figure are you sure you are ovulating? Is your cycle 28 days? How heavy do you bleed? These are first step questions when it comes to whether or not you need hormone replacement therapy. (Let's call it what it is). Being too low in fat could be causing the egg not to be released because the body senses there isn't enough food for survival. Women in general don't eat enough and think being thin means healthy and sexy. Even Ray Peat enjoyed painting women that I would call full of youthful estrogen, curvy voluptuous women. (I took didn't have many curves, I was also more athletic built, I now have more estrogenic curves thanks to ice cream).

Haha gotta love ice cream! :) I agree with you and I'm very far from anything mainstream, I'm also a FAM educator so I track my cycles very closely and I'm glad to report I've ovulated every month of the past 7 years. My progesterone is just not enough to sustain my luteal for more than 11 days. I have an androgenic frame but I'm not skinny by any means, I eat plenty and without restriction, my appetite has been self regulated by years, etc. Don't worry, absolutely all the basics and much more beyond are covered (I'm actually a nutritional therapist, engaged to a naturopath and have been 13 years educating women on all these very topics you mention and helped so many recover their healthy body fat, periods and fertility), so I say BRAVO! And Thank you, truly! :)

 

[Ucume]

Sorry for derailing your thread. You might find this book helpful

From PMS to Menopause Book — Balanced Body Mind

A physical book by Ray Peat “Most of the ideas about health and hormones that are being propagated are fraudulent commercial inventions. In this setting, it is impossible to have any sense of security about the way you are living unless you make the effort to critically examine the claims you hear

www.balancedbodymind.com

View attachment 60190

Thanks for that! I actually did order it a few days ago

On the other topic, the "debate"... I'm a bit confused since I keep reading posts from Charlie against many of the things discussed in the forum (sorry, I'm new here so I'm obviously missing something).

 

[InChristAlone]

Haha gotta love ice cream! :) I agree with you and I'm very far from anything mainstream, I'm also a FAM educator so I track my cycles very closely and I'm glad to report I've ovulated every month of the past 7 years. My progesterone is just not enough to sustain my luteal for more than 11 days. I have an androgenic frame but I'm not skinny by any means, I eat plenty and without restriction, my appetite has been self regulated by years, etc. Don't worry, absolutely all the basics and much more beyond are covered (I'm actually a nutritional therapist, engaged to a naturopath and have been 13 years educating women on all these very topics you mention and helped so many recover their healthy body fat, periods and fertility), so I say BRAVO! And Thank you, truly! :)

That's great!! I had to ask not knowing anything about you. Have you heard of the three hourly starch diet for low progesterone? Apparently women can't go longer than 12 hours at night and three hours during the day without some carbs.

Also I have to ask too what is your main diet? Being engaged to a naturopath unfortunately there are some not so good diet recommendations in the alternative health world. Particularly the advice to eat more vitamin A.

 

[Peatress]

Thanks for that! I actually did order it a few days ago

On the other topic, the "debate"... I'm a bit confused since I keep reading posts from Charlie against many of the things discussed in the forum (sorry, I'm new here so I'm obviously missing something).

It’s good to read widely before making drastic changes. This thread is helpful

Katharina Dalton: The Dietary "musts" For Improving Progesterone (Hint: No Low Carb, No Starvation)

Click on the link below for full interview

“It seems people are becoming more aware that progesterone has other functions; it looks after the smoothness of the blood vessels; the myelin sheaths of nerves in men, women and children; and it looks after water retention in the brain in men, women and children. In other words, it’s needed by men, women and children. It will probably continue to be a subject of much study, discussion and controversy in the future.” Katharina Dalton

 

[Ucume]

It’s good to read widely before making drastic changes. This thread is helpful

Katharina Dalton: The Dietary "musts" For Improving Progesterone (Hint: No Low Carb, No Starvation)

Click on the link below for full interview

“It seems people are becoming more aware that progesterone has other functions; it looks after the smoothness of the blood vessels; the myelin sheaths of nerves in men, women and children; and it looks after water retention in the brain in men, women and children. In other words, it’s needed by men, women and children. It will probably continue to be a subject of much study, discussion and controversy in the future.” Katharina Dalton

Thank you Peatress. I’ve read all Dalton’s books, what a treasure! I do practice her teachings including her very useful PMS “map” (which helps me tremendously with patients too) Also tons and tons of others’ including Peat’s articles and some of his books. This is pretty much what I do for a living since 2015. We really are deep nerds and we actually work helping others with this. I don’t fast at all - and I naturally get hungry/peckish before 3h from a meal have passed and I have a due snack -, and I don’t do low carb either. At this point we decided to give progesterone a go since we already did pretty much all the other work there’s to do before, so that’s where my interest is atm :) At this point what I’m looking for is for experiences on both ends of P intake: Peat’s (much lower) Vs. Dalton’s (much higher). Also looking for experiences on migraines (Dalton is clear about Progesterone definitely helping menstruation related migraines), but my migraines already happen in the very early days of the follicular phase (as opposed to just before menses) so I’m interested on experiences using it early in the follicular phase to prevent an attack but stopping early enough as to not impair ovulation. That’s what I’m after :)

 

[Ucume]

Yes I do notice a difference, I try to take a break from day 1 of my cycle and sometimes I manage to go 3-4 days without progesterone.
But sometimes I only manage a day or two and I get a return of symptoms, so I go back on it.

So I gather that When you take P constantly throughout the cycle, you still get your period regularly without the need for stopping, am I correct? Also, do you know if you ovulate while on constant P? And how much do u normally take per day? (This is all very insightful, Happycat, thank you, not just for me but for my practice)