Why Is There So Much Soluble Fibre In Human Breast Milk?

[Stuart]

I don't agree with his view on this but he thinks even the non-endotoxin bacteria are not worth it, even if they are anti-inflammatory. Milk bacteria produces lactic acid for example, so in his view there is a risk of excess. Add to that his discussion that a sterile gut can function perfectly well (in studies).

Thanks for the explanation. Btw. what's the problem with lactic acid again?

I do get the impression that by attempting to sideline even the commensal (you said 'non endotoxin') bacteria, Dr. Peat is probably unleashing far more damage. I just don't think you can make new rules for a mechanism that is designed to work in a particular way. Human's often do this, and it always seems to end badly. Don't you think he's claiming to be wiser than nature here?
About the 'sterile gut' idea. you could conceivably get close to a sterile upper digestive tract with constant really strong broad spectrum antibiotics. But even one course of antibiotics does incredible damage to your microbiome. Look at the increased incidence of allergies from widespread use of antibiotics. And allergies are just one aspect.

But I don't think you could empty the colon of bacteria completely unless you were placed in a germ free tent for the rest of your life. What kind of life would that be? Your colon is full of bacteria. That's what it does.

 

[Nicholas]

I don't agree with his view on this but he thinks even the non-endotoxin bacteria are not worth it, even if they are anti-inflammatory. Milk bacteria produces lactic acid for example, so in his view there is a risk of excess. Add to that his discussion that a sterile gut can function perfectly well (in studies).

Thanks for the explanation. Btw. what's the problem with lactic acid again?

I do get the impression that by attempting to sideline even the commensal (you said 'non endotoxin') bacteria, Dr. Peat is probably unleashing far more damage. I just don't think you can make new rules for a mechanism that is designed to work in a particular way. Human's often do this, and it always seems to end badly. Don't you think he's claiming to be wiser than nature here?

kind of like artificially or aggressively raising metabolism? : )

 

[jyb]

Don't you think he's claiming to be wiser than nature here?

It's a question of assumption. If you think the lactic acid is enough to hurt your metabolism, then in his framework it's definitely not worth it. Of course you may not agree with that assumption, especially since this is *exogenously* produced lactic acid, not from your own metabolism. Only lactic acid from your metabolism shows for sure it is not oxidative, whereas here it is more of a potential liver burden "only". So, you could make a case the lactic acid is just a correlation here. The same can be said about other things in his articles, in my opinion. Maybe it is more the case in pronounced disease? Some of his article are more geared towards situations of disease.

 

[Stuart]

Don't you think he's claiming to be wiser than nature here?

It's a question of assumption. If you think the lactic acid is enough to hurt your metabolism, then in his framework it's definitely not worth it. Of course you may not agree with that assumption, especially since this is *exogenously* produced lactic acid, not from your own metabolism. Only lactic acid from your metabolism shows for sure it is not oxidative, whereas here it is more of a potential liver burden "only". So, you could make a case the lactic acid is just a correlation here. The same can be said about other things in his articles, in my opinion. Maybe it is more the case in pronounced disease? Some of his article are more geared towards situations of disease.

Is endogenously produced lactic acid O.K.? And don't a lot of Peatarians eat kefir/ kombucha etc. Isn't that exogenous lactic acid?

 

[jyb]

Is endogenously produced lactic acid O.K.? And don't a lot of Peatarians eat kefir/ kombucha etc. Isn't that exogenous lactic acid?

No it's not the same situation with bacteria derived lactic acid. Endogenously means your own cells produce lactic acid and that's a symptom they are not able to use energy efficiently. Peat argues however even the exogenous lactic acid carries a burden, excessive burden. It is that last point which is subject to debate. Obviously if you drink kefir then you don't agree with that analysis.

 

[Such_Saturation]

@ Such_Saturation
This is a pretty good explanation of wheat bran's fermentation characteristics:

"Some fibers are readily fermented by bacteria that normally colonize the colon. In addition to increasing the amount of bacteria in the colon, fermentation results in the formation of short-chain fatty acids (acetate, propionate, and butyrate) and gases (1). Short-chain fatty acids can be absorbed and metabolized to produce energy. Interestingly, the preferred energy source for colonocytes (epithelial cells that line the colon) is butyrate. Pectins, β-glucans, guar gum, inulin, and oligofructose are readily fermented, while cellulose and lignin are resistant to fermentation in the colon (6, 7). Foods that are rich in fermentable fibers include oats and barley, as well as fruit and vegetables. Cereal fibers that are rich in cellulose, such as wheat bran, are relatively resistant to bacterial fermentation (1)."

I think wheat bran produces butyrate at the distal end of the colon because of that resistance to bacterial fermentation. But there are other fermentable fibers, like long chain inulin, that are highly fermentable and yet the fermentation mainly seems to happen at the distal end. Pure cellulose won't feed gut bacteria at all, and wheat bran is mostly cellulose.

I'm curious now. You don't eat fruit or vegetables? No animal connective tissue at all?

But then why are you claiming they can't use wheat bran?

 

[Stuart]

So can we say maybe a gram or so from three quarts of milk? http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(91)78467-1/pdf

I don't drink bone broth, I drink only clear juices. My friend, if I fart twice in a day it's a lot for me. And it always smells like kefir

You sound like a pretty full on Peatarian. How does the kefir fit in? Isn't the lactic acid a problem?

 

[Stuart]

I'm curious now. You don't eat fruit or vegetables? No animal connective tissue at all?

But then why are you claiming they can't use wheat bran?

I think the important point is that wheat bran is resistant to bacterial fermentation, because most of it is cellulose. Some dietary fibers are highly fermentable like the pectin in fruit.

Don't be shy, no fruits or vegetables or animal connective tissue at all?

 

[Such_Saturation]

So can we say maybe a gram or so from three quarts of milk? http://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(91)78467-1/pdf

I don't drink bone broth, I drink only clear juices. My friend, if I fart twice in a day it's a lot for me. And it always smells like kefir

You sound like a pretty full on Peatarian. How does the kefir fit in? Isn't the lactic acid a problem?

I don't drink kefir, the farts smell like kefir. Do you think lactose can reach the colon even in people who are used to it?

 

[narouz]

Is endogenously produced lactic acid O.K.? And don't a lot of Peatarians eat kefir/ kombucha etc. Isn't that exogenous lactic acid?

Peat sees lactic acid as part of a typical cascade of bad substances--
pro-inflammatory (pro-disease, pro-cancer, etc).
Nitric oxide, serotonin, estrogen, endotoxin are some of his other "bad guys."

But that does not nullify your fermentable fiber theory, in my mind.

 

[Stuart]

I don't drink kefir, the farts smell like kefir. Do you think lactose can reach the colon even in people who are used to it?

I think even commensal bacteria in your upper digestive tract will have converted some of the lactose into lactic acid before it gets to your colon. But most of it is probably just metabolized as any other digestible sugar.
No idea why your farts smell like kefir. but it could indicate lactic acid somewhere along the line.
Does that concern you?
Are the farts uncomfortable to get out? If not, it's not SIBO, and your colon microbiota are clearly producing gas from something though.

 

[jyb]

I don't drink kefir, the farts smell like kefir. Do you think lactose can reach the colon even in people who are used to it?

Never realised kefir smelled something
I read on Art Ayers blog that breastfed babies tend to have yogurt smelling stools, which sort of makes sense given their gut bacteria is from the milk bacteria type.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Bacteria can also produce d-lactid acid and only the liver can process this to some (little?) extent, but you don't want that stuff it is a HUGEEE burden for your brain and heart.

The studies the linus pauling institute refers to are kind of vague. The only reference they make, is to a study investigating in vitro the decomposition of foods. I doubt it is comparable to what's happening in us. Unfortunately the study (abstract) doesn't say how they prepapred the foods, but we chew, have stomach acid, different bacterial species in different sections. Also, we often think that what we ***t represents our internal gut microbiome, but who says that is true?
Sure mice have a different intestinal system too, so how the earlier results translate to humans is also unknown, but it's know that cereals produce significant gas.

Interesting enough reference 1 (http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/2/479.long#ref-4) in your quote shows the double edged sword of butyrate I've been guessing at in my earlier posts.

It is entirely possible that different concentrations of butyrate may result in very different physiological effects. For example, several laboratories have shown that low amounts of butyrate may stimulate cell proliferation while high amounts may inhibit it (30). In one report (30) colonic smooth muscle cells in primary culture were exposed to different molarities of butyrate. A low concentration of butyrate significantly stimulated cell proliferation whereas at higher levels of butyrate an inhibition of cell proliferation was observed. We (31) and others (32) have shown that there is a plateau for butyrate oxidation to CO2. Once that plateau has been reached, higher concentrations of butyrate are redirected to ketone body production, lipid synthesis, and other synthetic events (31). This may account for the seemingly paradoxical effects of butyrate at different molarities. Up to the plateau for butyrate oxidation, addition of butyrate may stimulate cell proliferation as the cell reaches its maximum energy level. Above that level, there may not be an increase in cell proliferation as butyrate will be redirected to other pathways.

Then there is of course there is protein fermentation that results in the production of p-cresol, indoles and ammonia with deletorius effects on the body. These species are certainly thriving on fiber too. The proof is in the pudding for fiber specifically spurting the growth of only 'unharmful' species or that fiber makes bacteria happy. What does a purring bacteria look like by the way? It's constantly fighting to the harsh enviroment, its neighbours and the defences we mount.

 

[Stuart]

Peat sees lactic acid as part of a typical cascade of bad substances--
pro-inflammatory (pro-disease, pro-cancer, etc).
Nitric oxide, serotonin, estrogen, endotoxin are some of his other "bad guys."

But that does not nullify your fermentable fiber theory, in my mind.

What does he think of butyrate (or SFCA's generally) ?

 

[Such_Saturation]

I don't drink kefir, the farts smell like kefir. Do you think lactose can reach the colon even in people who are used to it?

I think even commensal bacteria in your upper digestive tract will have converted some of the lactose into lactic acid before it gets to your colon. But most of it is probably just metabolized as any other digestible sugar.
No idea why your farts smell like kefir. but it could indicate lactic acid somewhere along the line.
Does that concern you?
Are the farts uncomfortable to get out? If not, it's not SIBO, and your colon microbiota are clearly producing gas from something though.

I know, but it's remarkable how little it is. I don't care about much except that they aren't a lot and that they dig the dairy.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I don't drink kefir, the farts smell like kefir. Do you think lactose can reach the colon even in people who are used to it?

Never realised kefir smelled something
I read on Art Ayers blog that breastfed babies tend to have yogurt smelling stools, which sort of makes sense given their gut bacteria is from the milk bacteria type.

You can't smell kefir? It's like yogurt, but stronger and more sour. Try to think of its taste, for you use your nose when you taste anyway.

 

[jyb]

Bacteria can also produce d-lactid acid and only the liver can process this to some (little?) extent, but you don't want that stuff it is a HUGEEE burden for your brain and heart.

Neurons actually seem to need some of it for stability, if you read this explanation of why astrocytes exist: http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.co.u ... 20function

And I would guess, the opposite happens for the heart, which would prefer to use specific fatty acids to avoid any risk of lactic acid from using glucose poorly.

 

[jyb]

You can't smell kefir? It's like yogurt, but stronger and more sour. Try to think of its taste, for you use your nose when you taste anyway.

I've fermented kefir for many days. At room temperature. It reminds me more of cheese than yogurt, albeit not very strong cheese. Probably alcohol if you wait long enough.

 

[Stuart]

Then there is of course there is protein fermentation that results in the production of p-cresol, indoles and ammonia with deletorius effects on the body. These species are certainly thriving on fiber too. The proof is in the pudding for fiber specifically spurting the growth of only 'unharmful' species or that fiber makes bacteria happy. What does a purring bacteria look like by the way? It's constantly fighting to the harsh enviroment, its neighbours and the defences we mount.

Well I've only referred to a purring microbiome, not to individual bacteria. And I meant one in which the commensals were keeping pathogens in line.

Interesting idea about having just the right amount of butyrate production.

 

[Stuart]

You can't smell kefir? It's like yogurt, but stronger and more sour. Try to think of its taste, for you use your nose when you taste anyway.

I've fermented kefir for many days. At room temperature. It reminds me more of cheese than yogurt, albeit not very strong cheese. Probably alcohol if you wait long enough.

Whatever your kefir smelt like, if your grains were working, there would have been a lot of lactic acid wouldn't there?