Ray Peat Diet / Protocol Name?

[Blossom]

You're welcome, Blossom! :)

I love how simple his recommendations really are and not at all complicated or restrictive. It really is a freeing feeling compared to most of the dietary advice out there. Yay Ray!

 

[narouz]

...his recommendations really are..not at all...restrictive.

I am sorry to be a wet dishrag here, but...
I would note the complete absence in his email of any mention of any "starches":
grains, breads, potatoes, rice, beans, oats...

I submit that for most people
that will feel quite restrictive.
Add to that
Peat does not go in for big time meat eating at all;
so one cannot escape through that loophole
into some quasi-paleo/primal meat-a-thon.
Same is true with the seafood.

Also, on the fruits:
for those living in, say, the U.S.,
there is not really a cornucopia of available, healthy, Peatian fruit--
at least not year round.
The ripeness is a problem.

The eggs...shouldn't really rely on them either as a protein staple:
Peat says one or two per day
and that is if they are good pastured eggs.

Jennifer, it is entirely possible that is not a restrictive diet for you.
I'm just giving my opinion that for most Americans (let's say)
it will be a very restrictive diet.

If it pays off in good health,
it is worth every bit of the restriction!

 

[Such_Saturation]

What starch does to you is restrictive.

 

[narouz]

What starch does to you is restrictive.

Yeah, so says Peat,
and I'm a pretty strong believer.

They sure taste good, though.
Dammit. :)

 

[Such_Saturation]

What starch does to you is restrictive.

Yeah, so says Peat,
and I'm a pretty strong believer.

They sure taste good, though.
Dammit. :)

It's them toppings

 

[narouz]

What starch does to you is restrictive.

Yeah, so says Peat,
and I'm a pretty strong believer.

They sure taste good, though.
Dammit. :)

It's them toppings

Yeah...they're a Topping Delivery System!

You know, I was thinking yesterday at work:
I had some cheese with rice crackers.
Man...that cheese truly would not have been as yummy without the rice crackers.
"Everything tastes better when it sits on a Ritz."

 

[Jennifer]

...his recommendations really are..not at all...restrictive.

I am sorry to be a wet dishrag here, but...
I would note the complete absence in his email of any mention of any "starches":
grains, breads, potatoes, rice, beans, oats...

I submit that for most people
that will feel quite restrictive.
Add to that
Peat does not go in for big time meat eating at all;
so one cannot escape through that loophole
into some quasi-paleo/primal meat-a-thon.
Same is true with the seafood.

Also, on the fruits:
for those living in, say, the U.S.,
there is not really a cornucopia of available, healthy, Peatian fruit--
at least not year round.
The ripeness is a problem.

The eggs...shouldn't really rely on them either as a protein staple:
Peat says one or two per day
and that is if they are good pastured eggs.

Jennifer, it is entirely possible that is not a restrictive diet for you.
I'm just giving my opinion that for most Americans (let's say)
it will be a very restrictive diet.

If it pays off in good health,
it is worth every bit of the restriction!

Why can't you have gelatinous cuts of meat or meat with bone broth/gelatin powder, even daily? Same with shellfish/low-fat fish? If you're worried about the calcium/phosphorus ratio, add some eggshell calcium or kale broth.

2 eggs a day even from plain old organic eggs from the supermarket are fine. It's just two eggs and the amount of PUFA in them is minimal in a diet that is already so low in PUFA.

Fruit isn't hard to get year round if you do frozen during the colder months. I did 3000 calories a day of fruit for two years while on the fruitarian diet so I'd be happy to give tips on where and how to get good fruit. I know a few others on here who could give good tips also. Maybe a separate thread to help each of us all locate good food in our area would be helpful?

Ray has said that he personally includes turnips in his diet. Check out his answer on the 20 questions with Ray Peat thread. He's not appose to tubers and roots.

Please, please, please, don't sweat the small stuff. If you like potatoes, add some butter and call it a day. If you like 3 egg omelets instead of two, have 3. If you want a steak and there's no coffee in site and you just downed a glass of OJ, still have the steak.

In the grand scheme of things and in an already nutritious diet, worrying about every little detail will do more harm than not having dietary perfection. It only becomes restrictive if we let it. Our bodies are far more resilient than we give them credit for. Those rice crackers won't make or break you, narouz. And I say this as a person who was literally at death's door.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I've never heard Ray Peat recommend more than one egg per day. Has he?

 

[narouz]

Why can't you have gelatinous cuts of meat or meat with bone broth/gelatin powder, even daily? Same with shellfish/low-fat fish? If you're worried about the calcium/phosphorus ratio, add some eggshell calcium or kale broth.

I'm coming at this from the perspective
that some may be interested in eating the best Peat diet possible.
That's all.
Some may not be into that.

For those interested in figuring out what Peat thinks is an optimal diet,
my opinion is that it is worthwhile to make distinctions.

2 eggs a day even from plain old organic eggs from the supermarket are fine. It's just two eggs and the amount of PUFA in them is minimal in a diet that is already so low in PUFA.

Peat says he avoids eggs unless he knows where they're coming from.
It seems he likes his eggs to come from chickens who don't just eat the typical chicken PUFA feed,
but rather are pastured and able to scratch around and eat non-feed stuff.
He seems to think eggs are great used somewhat like liver--
to be eaten for the high nutrients, not as a big protein component.
A lot of what we're contesting is a matter of scale.
I don't see eggs as occupying a big slice of the pie in an optimal Peat diet.
To me it is important to distinguish what foods are good in small amounts on an optimal Peat diet
and not let those get inflated into Stuff You Can Eat All the Time on a Peat Diet,
so that the diet gets distorted/misrepresented/inaccurate.

Ray has said that he personally includes turnips in his diet. Check out his answer on the 20 questions with Ray Peat thread. He's not appose to tubers and roots.

Well, okay, turnips. :)
I read/listened carefully for years
and that scant mention of turnips was the first I heard of Peat saying he'd eaten starchy vegetables.
As it turns out, they aren't even starchy.
Mostly all water.
Peat said he ate them simply because of their flavor.
That seemed to be a one-off episode of turnip eating for him,
not a regular staple of his diet.
The other tubers like potatoes are a very different kettle of fish,
and much more vexing.
Finally, if you comb through all that Peat says about potatoes and starches in general,
you can't come away thinking they are at all an optimal Peat food.
Once, when pushed, about how many potatoes one could eat--healthily--per day,
he sortuv grudgingly said: "One small potato per day."
About starches in general, the Peat record is replete with evidence that they aren't optimal foods.

Again, we're talking about scale and proportion here.
I'm not saying one could never eat a potato or an egg on an optimal Peat diet.
But I am saying eggs and potatoes should not be put forth
as anywhere near mainstays in an optimal Peat diet.

Please, please, please, don't sweat the small stuff. If you like potatoes, add some butter and call it a day. If you like 3 egg omelets instead of two, have 3. If you want a steak and there's no coffee in site and you just downed a glass of OJ, still have the steak.

Well...you do imply an interesting point:
the notion that the most important thing in deciding on a diet is
not to sweat.
That is...be relaxed about your diet.
Go with your flow.
If you want something, eat it.

I do tend to look at it another way.
Maybe I'm wrong.
But I don't think it is wrong to value discipline.
If my health is at stake, I am prepared to exert some self-discipline.

This takes us to a familiar battleground in PeatDom:
the nature and place of authority.
Some will see self-discipline as self-authoritarianism.
Being a Nazi to one's self.
If one's mouth is salivating over the PUFA-drenched fried chicken at KFC,
don't sweat it,
don't be an Authoritarian to your Self.
Chow down on the 5 Piece Dark Meat box and set yourself free!

Yes...I see the argument.
I just can't really go along with it at this point. :)

In the grand scheme of things and in an already nutritious diet, worrying about every little detail will do more harm than not having dietary perfection.

This rounds us back to our differing points of view on the subject, Jennifer,
and to a general tension present in the forum.
Personally, I've found it very hard to be perfect in eating what I understand to be an optimal Peat diet.
But I do find value in describing what that optimal Peat diet is,
so that I can shoot for it if I have the will to.

The other way of getting around the difficulty is
to declare that there is no Peat diet,
or there is no optimal Peat diet,
or there may be an optimal Peat diet but it cannot be spoken,
or everyone's own personal Peat diet is optimal,
or whatever, etc.
By using those er creative constructions: problem solved.
No discipline required!
Eat whatever one wants--there's your optimal Peat diet!

 

[Philomath]

Dr. Peat refers to certain foods as "famine foods", grains being one example. I think he structures his foods by nutritional value and affordability. He's mentioned before that he chooses Orange juice because it's cheaper than buying the equivalent amount of fruit.

Top level (preferred & most costly): gelatinous meat, dairy, liver, shellfish , fresh fruit
Middle level: Any top level food plus starches like potatoes, masa harina, rice, oats - as long as they are cooked properly and include a fat. Possibly warm water fish too.
Bottom level: (survival food & affordable) - grains, cold water fish, legumes, most plants and vegetables.

Yes, you have to be creative and diligent to eat from the top two levels. However, it only seems restrictive when you're used to eating from the bottom level.
How many of us wouldn't sell our soul for tasty bread, or a cracker made of foods from level one or two?

 

[Blossom]

And don't for get to ENJOY your food.
I've made fried chicken a couple times using skinless white meat breaded in white rice flour and cooked in refined coconut oil. It's great with baked apples and very well cooked green beans. How about a gelatin based dessert? You'd almost think you were a kid back at grandma's house for Sunday dinner!

 

[Jennifer]

I'm coming at this from the perspective
that some may be interested in eating the best Peat diet possible.
That's all.
Some may not be into that.

For those interested in figuring out what Peat thinks is an optimal diet,
my opinion is that it is worthwhile to make distinctions.

Peat says he avoids eggs unless he knows where they're coming from.
It seems he likes his eggs to come from chickens who don't just eat the typical chicken PUFA feed,
but rather are pastured and able to scratch around and eat non-feed stuff.
He seems to think eggs are great used somewhat like liver--
to be eaten for the high nutrients, not as a big protein component.
A lot of what we're contesting is a matter of scale.
I don't see eggs as occupying a big slice of the pie in an optimal Peat diet.
To me it is important to distinguish what foods are good in small amounts on an optimal Peat diet
and not let those get inflated into Stuff You Can Eat All the Time on a Peat Diet,
so that the diet gets distorted/misrepresented/inaccurate.

Narouz, if you go back and reread what Ray wrote me, you'll see he has liver as occasionally, not eggs. Ray has said many times that the protein in eggs is high quality and that's why you should have a glass of orange juice with one egg or a glass of orange juice and a glass of milk if you have two eggs.

I too have read where Ray has said when he's in Mexico where the chickens are allowed to roam free, he doesn't limit his intake on eggs, but does to 1 - 2 per day when in Oregon. But again, what is one extra egg in the grand scheme of things? You aren't going to die if you crave an extra egg and partake in it. If you believe that then we have to make the distinction of the weight of the egg in terms of what Ray feels is optimal and know exactly how much and of what type of food/bugs/vegetation the chicken who laid they egg had. We'll have to separate the yolk from the white and measure those two independently because yolks can be bigger or smaller, even in eggs of the same size and weight. This is just my opinion, but as far as I'm concerned, that's not a way of eating, that's a prison sentence.

Well...you do imply an interesting point:
the notion that the most important thing in deciding on a diet is
not to sweat.
That is...be relaxed about your diet.
Go with your flow.
If you want something, eat it.

I do tend to look at it another way.
Maybe I'm wrong.
But I don't think it is wrong to value discipline.
If my health is at stake, I am prepared to exert some self-discipline.

I guess my argument would be...how do we know it wasn't that discipline that actually caused the illness for many people?

What I see as a running theme is that people get locked into highly restrictive diets believing they will bring them utopian health, but even more so, I believe they do it out of fear of becoming what they don't want, whether it be overweight, getting a disease that "runs" in the family or one that they watched a friend die from ect. They follow the diets to a T, ignore legitimate cravings through sheer willpower and/or fear and end up really sick. They are then told by the believers of that diet that they didn't do the diet right.

The problem is they did do the diet right and everyone else who was doing the diet and felt lousy on it jumped ship before they ever sank. We are the wreckage. We are the diehards, the perfectionists, the overachievers at all costs. We go to extremes. I'm trying to stop myself from going to extremes. I'm trying to be flexible. Ray has changed his stance on food over the years. We too should give ourselves the same flexibility, no?

This takes us to a familiar battleground in PeatDom:
the nature and place of authority.
Some will see self-discipline as self-authoritarianism.
Being a Nazi to one's self.
If one's mouth is salivating over the PUFA-drenched fried chicken at KFC,
don't sweat it,
don't be an Authoritarian to your Self.
Chow down on the 5 Piece Dark Meat box and set yourself free!

Yes...I see the argument.
I just can't really go along with it at this point. :)

All I can really say is "to thine own self be true."

When you are disciplined, know your motivation? Is it out of fear or love for yourself? When you love yourself no matter what or who you are at this very moment, what you do in the present will be of a nurturing nature, not a dictating one. This is an unintentional thing, but people are so afraid of authoritarianism that they actually become authoritative. It's the same with disease. Many are so afraid of becoming sick that they actually make themselves sick. We have far more power over ourselves than we think.

Either way, I just want for people to have health and happiness without the constant struggle. If they're happy, healthy and loving themselves, no matter what they ate to achieve that, I'm happy for them. :)

Philomath, LOL I think the devil drives one of those food trucks wafting with the smell of hotdogs and fried dough. When buying what he's selling, just tell him to put it on your tab and you keep your soul.

Blossom, that meal you described sounds really good. And it's so true! My grandmother always included green beans at our Sunday meals. :)

 

[aquaman]

I asked him how much A to supplement and mentioned I get anxiety from Nutrisorb A.

RP: I use the vitamin A only on my skin, because I get intense symptoms from even a small amount orally.

Me: Do you recommend Carlson's A gelcaps if I'm unable to get enough from food?

RP: I think it's safest to use the oily vitamins on the skin.

Thanks! I don't think that's been reported about A anywhere I've seen before. I'd only seen it about D!

^^ it's another good example of why not to call your list RDAs, since the recommendations don't seem to match with RP's advice. Call them VoSDAs

 

[Blossom]

That's so true Jennifer and well said. I have to be flexible because I got myself into an emaciated mess with my prior dietary escapades. I suppose that is where our unique context comes into play. I find myself regularly in the role of preparing food for friends and family who are not Peat inspired so I try to find ways of making traditional type dishes that every one can enjoy.

 

[Philomath]

Change is in the air! It's Saturday morning, the girls had their regular Saturday cinnamon toast, with fresh bread (give & take ), kerrygold butter and Ceylon cinnamon. Now they're making an omelette for everyone (using pasture raised eggs) and serving fesh squeezed oj.
I may have to re-mortgage the house to continue but I'm sure it will be worth it long term! Thanks everyone!
Be sure to spend time this weekend enjoying things that are important to you!

 

[Philomath]

Oh yeah, they don't know it, but I'm sneaking shrimp and oysters into the jambalaya today

 

[Such_Saturation]

Chow down on the 5 Piece Dark Meat box and set yourself free!

 

[narouz]

And don't for get to ENJOY your food.
I've made fried chicken a couple times using skinless white meat breaded in white rice flour and cooked in refined coconut oil. It's great with baked apples and very well cooked green beans. How about a gelatin based dessert? You'd almost think you were a kid back at grandma's house for Sunday dinner!

It's a real issue, Blossom.
I mean,
if one is diligently eating a tip-top optimal Peat diet,
but then it is stressful to do so...

At the same time
my preferred way of navigating that problem
would be to:
1. still go ahead and honestly and accurately describe an optimal Peat diet,
then
2. simply admit I can't do it.

Rather than:
Falsify/distort/obfuscate what an optimal Peat diet is
so that I can thereby feel pleased with myself for staying on it.

 

[narouz]

Dr. Peat refers to certain foods as "famine foods", grains being one example. I think he structures his foods by nutritional value and affordability. He's mentioned before that he chooses Orange juice because it's cheaper than buying the equivalent amount of fruit.

Top level (preferred & most costly): gelatinous meat, dairy, liver, shellfish , fresh fruit
Middle level: Any top level food plus starches like potatoes, masa harina, rice, oats - as long as they are cooked properly and include a fat. Possibly warm water fish too.
Bottom level: (survival food & affordable) - grains, cold water fish, legumes, most plants and vegetables.

Yes, you have to be creative and diligent to eat from the top two levels. However, it only seems restrictive when you're used to eating from the bottom level.
How many of us wouldn't sell our soul for tasty bread, or a cracker made of foods from level one or two?

Phil-
Without getting into a full-blown critique...
I've thought a little about some tiered way of articulating a Peat diet/s.
I think something like that might work.

Just looking at what you've sketched out there,
a few things pop into my head:
1. I'm not sure the top level is gonna have to be the most expensive.
2. "gelatinous meat" in that top level: I see why you note that,
but it gets complicated when trying to accurately convey appropriate proportions.
If there are loopholes, they will be exploited.
You will see folks eating 16oz roast lamb shoulder for breakfast,
16oz chuck pot roast for lunch,
then finishing off with 16oz lamb shanks for supper,
and calling it a beautiful "Optimal Peat Diet" day well done!
3. similar problem with shellfish unless proportions articulated
4. the fruits, unless one lives in a tropical paradise, prove more problematic
than might meat the eye.
So many fruits don't meet the Peat Test because of starchiness, pectininess, unripeness,
or just plain wrongness (avocadoes).

 

[Blossom]

And don't for get to ENJOY your food.
I've made fried chicken a couple times using skinless white meat breaded in white rice flour and cooked in refined coconut oil. It's great with baked apples and very well cooked green beans. How about a gelatin based dessert? You'd almost think you were a kid back at grandma's house for Sunday dinner!

It's a real issue, Blossom.
I mean,
if one is diligently eating a tip-top optimal Peat diet,
but then it is stressful to do so...

At the same time
my preferred way of navigating that problem
would be to:
1. still go ahead and honestly and accurately describe an optimal Peat diet,
then
2. simply admit I can't do it.

Rather than:
Falsify/distort/obfuscate what an optimal Peat diet is
so that I can thereby feel pleased with myself for staying on it.

Yeah, I see where your coming from narouz but I just don't think there is one. The reason I say that is because each person is unique and our contexts are all a bit different. Low starch rather than no starch may be optimal for me at this time but that could change. I fully respect that others will apply the insights they have gleaned from Peat's work a bit different than me. What works for someone coming from a semi-starvation background will be different for someone who has not. I have had better results than I could have ever hoped for while still incorporating some starch most days but I fully respect that is not optimal for everyone. I like to stay focused on the things we have in common here rather than feel like I don't belong because my serving of masa harina cornbread might mean I'm not Peaty enough. I'm in a boat where consistently getting a certain number of calories is an important part of maintaining my metabolism and health. That's part of why I will never think there is one optimal Peat diet for everyone. He wants us to think for ourselves and not necessarily blindly eat only what he eats.