Ray Peat Diet / Protocol Name?

[narouz]

I too have read where Ray has said when he's in Mexico where the chickens are allowed to roam free, he doesn't limit his intake on eggs, but does to 1 - 2 per day when in Oregon.

Jennifer-
I very much doubt Peat eats like 14 eggs per week wherever he is.
I haven't thought about Peat & eggs carefully for a while,
but that is my impression.
I would like to investigate such areas carefully and in a focused way
when I get some time.

But again, what is one extra egg in the grand scheme of things? You aren't going to die if you crave an extra egg and partake in it.

Yes, I agree completely.
As I said in my earlier post though,
a problem can arise if limits (I am sorry to use the word ) are not articulated.
What about if I crave and extra egg or two every day?'
Is it ever appropriate to employ the concept of limitation?

If you believe that then we have to make the distinction of the weight of the egg in terms of what Ray feels is optimal and know exactly how much and of what type of food/bugs/vegetation the chicken who laid they egg had. We'll have to separate the yolk from the white and measure those two independently because yolks can be bigger or smaller, even in eggs of the same size and weight.

I do think such considerations/explorations/fine-tunings
are very appropriate and desirable.
I'd very much like to know exactly what the best Peat diet for my health would be.
I had a reaction akin to yours when I heard a few years ago
that some on the forum
including our illustrious admin
were separating the yolk out and throwing away the white.
I thought: man, these guys are getting carried away!
But...I don't see it like that now.

But always remember:
if the egg white does not offend thee,
thee may leave it and eat it.

This is just my opinion, but as far as I'm concerned, that's not a way of eating, that's a prison sentence.

Yeah...see my last statement.
It is only a prison sentence if you buy into it and agree with the reasoning.
Nobody will force you to eat anything.
But I do see where you're coming from:
personally I put a lot of belief in Peat's nutritional ideas.
I tend to agree with them strongly.
I tend to buy into them strongly.
So...because of that investment of my trust/belief,
I am very much aware of restrictions.
Sometimes it feels imprisoning.
Sometimes I'm fine with it.
Generally I like it because it makes me happy to feel like I'm doing the best for my health.

What I see as a running theme is that people get locked into highly restrictive diets believing they will bring them utopian health, but even more so, I believe they do it out of fear of becoming what they don't want, whether it be overweight, getting a disease that "runs" in the family or one that they watched a friend die from ect. They follow the diets to a T, ignore legitimate cravings through sheer willpower and/or fear and end up really sick. They are then told by the believers of that diet that they didn't do the diet right.
The problem is they did do the diet right and everyone else who was doing the diet and felt lousy on it jumped ship before they ever sank. We are the wreckage. We are the diehards, the perfectionists, the overachievers at all costs. We go to extremes. I'm trying to stop myself from going to extremes. I'm trying to be flexible. Ray has changed his stance on food over the years. We too should give ourselves the same flexibility, no?

This is a very interesting view.
There's something to it, I must say.
I am the wreckage of the paleo/primal/Mercola diets...yes.
I did them, as you say, to an extreme, "to a T."

I should have distrusted those dietary ideas.
Okay, lesson learned.
Now...do I apply that lesson learned to Peat's ideas?
Do I under no circumstances ever allow myself to believe in a dietary regime again,
and always refuse to faithfully follow any dietary philosophy,
including Peat's...?

It's an interesting idea.
But...I can't really say I go along with it.
One might compare the idea to the romantic sphere:
one is disappointed in love,
so one vows never to believe in love again?

Either way, I just want for people to have health and happiness without the constant struggle. If they're happy, healthy and loving themselves, no matter what they ate to achieve that, I'm happy for them. :)

If they got happy and healthy while not eating a Peat diet
then I hate them!
KIDDING!

But this does raise a real question.
Let's say the Powers That Be in the forum--
you know, those powerful few in the Inner Sanctum,
in their glass and metal offices high above us --
let's say they decide that they want
above all
to make the forum Inclusive.
And, in line with that,
they want to present a Peat diet that is
above all
Inclusive.
A diet that will not be off-putting to anyone,
a diet that anyone could joyfully embrace,
a diet that above all feels UnRestrictive...

...would you foresee any possible difficulties or conflicts
in bringing such a set of priorities to bear
on the project of faithfully and accurately representing
what Peat describes as an optimal diet? :)

 

[pboy]

i have to come out of retirement just to address what narouz has posted these past couple pages

youre awesome man, so well put, so eloquent and accurate. A noble presence in that writing...someone, who is willing to admit, I cant, or I don't know, and really try to get everything straight. I completely agree with everything you said. The smarter you are, the more you can actually make things understandable. People get trained by authorities who speak in irrelivent vagueness that they are somehow stupid for not understanding it, but really, the authority is just too dumb or speaking nonsense to actually communicate effectively and to that persons actual soul and tangible thoughts.

I personally have had great fun fine tuning everything, measuring to the T everything I do for the sake of KNOWING, even osmolality of what I consume, and changing that by the 1-5 amount...doing decimal math with all the stuff...incredibly pinpointing every aspect of everything you can think of. Its been so learning and eye opening and an adventure that I found fun, and that's why im so accurate now with being able to judge everything and know exactly whats going on, not just in me but other people.

That's a huge point you bring up, and why I say theres nobility in what you wrote, that people wanna just make things vague so they can think they are doing it right and feel comfortably numb and socially accepted, but really its just weak. At least say, I don't know, this is the best I can do, so others aernt confused and theres still that opening that someone else might be able to hone things up in the future. I hate to say it, but id say out of the 7 billion on the planet, probably only a few thousand are actually able to admit that, that they are, or were full of ***t. But once you do, that's the only way to eradicate it, and once you eradicate it, you soar above the rest and can easily identify this weak arrogance in others, and its comical. The whole world kind of runs off that right now. Its like no one is actually willing to (figuratively or literally) spend the months or years at home on the toilet all day (of their body or mind) dumping all the years of ***t they've perpetuated and condoned and spit out, and eaten up...but that's the only way to real liberation and mastery.

When people are unwilling to seek perfection in something and kind of just sloth their way half way doing it or thinking that something not ideal is ideal, its really just coming from a desperate compulsive, unhappy, state of mind, so they don't even have the time to sit and do some thinking deep, some math, some reading, some reflection, and go forward with a carefully planned approach, knowing that theres going to probably be bumps and its going to take days to weeks to years but that's the only true way to know, to mastery

Everything to me was worth it, all the details, all the narrowing and perfecting of things, because it has directly translated into my good feeling, freedom from pain of tightness or stench of any kind, and theres nothing better than feeling amazing within and about yourself, genuine pride, not in an arrogant sense, but in what you've accomplished and the harmony of it all. How do you think Peat achieved his mastery? Just weak vague slothy attempts? I don't think so...not at all

Its not like you can go to perfection with all the subtle knowledge in one day, but the best thing is to just admit im on the path, this is what I know, this is what I don't know, this is whats likely, this is what seems unlikely, and you'll be much better off and actually be able to progress

 

[Jennifer]

Narouz, I heard everything you said loud and clear and get what you're trying to say and what your concerns are, but after reading pboy's post, I really have nothing left to say. I am respectfully biting my tongue and bowing out of this one.

 

[pboy]

if you are a bit happier, and have gained a bit more wisdom, youre on the right path, that will always take you to your best place

I do agree with you jenn, and blossom, I feel bad because life has presented us with an enormous near insurmountable challenge, so never feel bad if youre struggling or suffering, I've gone through years and years of hell, and im sure everyone has, including Peat even

Im not perfect by any means, just have made huge strides

 

[narouz]

I like to stay focused on the things we have in common here rather than feel like I don't belong because my serving of masa harina cornbread might mean I'm not Peaty enough.

As I've always said,
for me
it is a real challenge to consistently stay within
what I understand to be an optimal Peat diet.
But any pressure I feel comes from me.
I don't care what others on the forum might say in the way you note--
about making me feel like I'm unworthy because I'm not strictly enough observant.

Honestly, I haven't been aware of a theme of pressure or exclusion like that here.
If anything, to my mind, there is an opposite kind of theme:
the theme of,
and even a pressure toward,
Inclusiveness.

I do understand and sympathize with the struggles you refer to about eating enough.
And I stand four-square behind your consumption of masa harina cornbread. :)
I certainly would bemoan the day
that I would come onto this forum and see posters saying things like
"Charlie, I wish you would ban Blossom because she eats masa harina cornbread!
She should at least have the decency to lie about something like that!!"

But...I haven't really been aware of that sort of current here.

To my mind,
I feel an awareness of couple of kinds of obligations here.
1. to try to be a good scholar of Peat, to represent his ideas as faithfully and accurately as I can.
and
2. to be nice, civil, inclusive, etc.

Yeah, I see where your coming from narouz but I just don't think there is one. The reason I say that is because each person is unique and our contexts are all a bit different.

I completely agree about uniqueness.
In my response to Jennifer above we discussed the notion of prisons/imprisonment.
There are many general statements from Peat about an optimal diet.
And yet I haven't heard an outcry on the forum
about Peat's efforts to imprison us within his authoritarian schemes. :)

It should be taken as a given that no one is under any obligation to observe any diet discussed here.
If it is not obvious,
it could be plainly stated.
I think we do need to be realistic about this:
to generalize is not to imprison.

I do think we mustn't be too phobic about such basics.
Peat generalizes constantly with no intention (or ability) to imprison.
I don't think we should avoid accurately summing up Peat's generalizations
out of a fear that we will be imprisoning folks...do you?

All kinds of people come to the forum
and they bring with them all kinds of sensitivities.
Must we, therefore, shrink from any restatement of Peat generalization
because we are so afraid of offending those sensitivities?
If we head down that road,
mightn't we be shutting down thoughtful, honest, accurate, faithful Peat research?

It is analogous to the debate these days about "triggers" in college classrooms.
Some students, or advocates, are arguing that teachers need to forewarn students
about any subjects that may arise which could "trigger" a bad reaction in some students
with particular sensitivities.
On the other side, teachers argue that trying to protect everyone's sensitivities
could become such a burden that, in effect,
it would result in shutting down real intellectual discussion.

Low starch rather than no starch may be optimal for me at this time but that could change...I have had better results than I could have ever hoped for while still incorporating some starch most days but I fully respect that is not optimal for everyone.

Just for the record,
in at least some of Peat's general formulations,
an optimal diet would be "low-starch"--not necessarily "no starch."
So you fall within Peat's limits anyhow! :)

 

[narouz]

Chow down on the 5 Piece Dark Meat box and set yourself free!

I know, right?

 

[narouz]

Narouz, I heard everything you said loud and clear and get what you're trying to say and what your concerns are, but after reading pboy's post, I really have nothing left to say. I am respectfully biting my tongue and bowing out of this one.

I'm sorry if I offended.
I didn't mean to.
Come on back if you want:
you're A-OK in my book!

 

[Such_Saturation]

Chow down on the 5 Piece Dark Meat box and set yourself free!

I know, right?

I still remember my first night after KFC

 

[narouz]

Chow down on the 5 Piece Dark Meat box and set yourself free!

I know, right?

I still remember my first night after KFC

Here's the weird thing in all of this:
I'm kinda cravin' an Extra Crunchy piece as I write... :?

 

[Blossom]

Make some homemade blossom style.

 

[narouz]

i have to come out of retirement just to address what narouz has posted these past couple pages...

Damn, pboy.
You can't go retirin' on us now!
(Were you in the same Peat Apotheosis Community Mittir apparently transcended up to?
If so, tell him to be a good boddhi satva and come on back down.)

 

[narouz]

Make some homemade blossom style.

Yeah, I had a laugh when you described that earlier
because that's exactly what I do about once a week for my elderly dad:
chicken breast, egg dip, rice flour, fry in coconut oil.
I try to do that regularly for him
because if I don't he brings home store-bought PUFA-fried poison.

I confess I ate some myself.
Some self-shaming was involved
as I feel sure that significant PUFA lurks within the chicken tissue.
But...I emerged with my head held semi-high! :)

 

[Jennifer]

I like to stay focused on the things we have in common here rather than feel like I don't belong because my serving of masa harina cornbread might mean I'm not Peaty enough. I'm in a boat where consistently getting a certain number of calories is an important part of maintaining my metabolism and health. That's part of why I will never think there is one optimal Peat diet for everyone. He wants us to think for ourselves and not necessarily blindly eat only what he eats.

This is how I feel for my context also. :)

if you are a bit happier, and have gained a bit more wisdom, youre on the right path, that will always take you to your best place

I do agree with you jenn, and blossom, I feel bad because life has presented us with an enormous near insurmountable challenge, so never feel bad if youre struggling or suffering, I've gone through years and years of hell, and im sure everyone has, including Peat even

Im not perfect by any means, just have made huge strides

Thank you, pboy! I appreciate your empathetic words.

I actually feel really great! I just got to this place a little differently than you. You find your empowerment by calculating your diet and I find mine by giving myself a little wiggle room. It was a calculated move on my part. I know myself and if I don't keep an eye on my perfectionistic tendencies, I will try to be perfect at all costs even if it means my health and sanity. I just won't do that to myself anymore. I actually understand my worth now, you know?

Anyhow, I love how intuned you are with your body and spirit and I'm honestly happy you found a way that works for you to accomplish that. That's awesome! :)

I completely agree about uniqueness.
In my response to Jennifer above we discussed the notion of prisons/imprisonment.
There are many general statements from Peat about an optimal diet.
And yet I haven't heard an outcry on the forum
about Peat's efforts to imprison us within his authoritarian schemes. :)

LOL Okay, sorry! Please bear with me. I'm having a hard time following this thread as it seems like the conversation is going around in circles. I posted what Ray wrote me and how I found it to not be restrictive or complicated a.k.a not imprisoning. You seemed to disagree here:

I am sorry to be a wet dishrag here, but...
I would note the complete absence in his email of any mention of any "starches":
grains, breads, potatoes, rice, beans, oats...

I submit that for most people
that will feel quite restrictive.

So now I'm totally confused. Are you saying you believe what Ray wrote me for dietary recommendations are restrictive or are you saying you don't believe they are restrictive? Or are you saying they're restrictive, but that you're OK with that if it means it will bring you health and wellbeing?

And thank you, narouz, but no need to be sorry. You didn't offend me. It's all good! :)

LOL At all the KFC talk. But why no love for the biscuits? I use to love the biscuits and those potato wedge things. Yum!

 

[tara]

When people are unwilling to seek perfection in something and kind of just sloth their way half way doing it or thinking that something not ideal is ideal, its really just coming from a desperate compulsive, unhappy, state of mind, so they don't even have the time to sit and do some thinking deep, ....

@pboy
To suggest that anybody who doesn't see or do things the way you consider to be perfect is motivated by sloth, desperation, and unhappiness, and that others are not doing their own thinking, is insulting.
Please keep to a higher standard of courtesy.

 

[narouz]

So now I'm totally confused. Are you saying you believe [1] what Ray wrote me for dietary recommendations are restrictive or are you saying you [2] don't believe they are restrictive? Or are you saying [3] they're restrictive, but that you're OK with that if it means it will bring you health and wellbeing?

Jennifer-
I would say the answers are #1 and #3
Now mind you, you of course have a right to interpret Peat's email any way you wish.
If you find the diet he describes to be unrestrictive to you,
I am not challenging that.

But in my view
what Peat wrote to you simply reinforces
the many general summations he has made about an optimal diet.
And one consistent theme in those general descriptions
is the value of avoiding starches.

Just looking at that one facet
my considered judgement over time
is that that alone will make an optimal Peat diet
feel restrictive to most people.

 

[narouz]

I wonder...
Is it possible that there is a semi-unspoken set of values at play here?

1. Posts evincing flexible standards, tentative guidelines, variable goals, suspended valuations, etc,
these are deemed valuable
while
2. Posts embodying reliable standards, firm guidelines, consistent goals, clear valuations, etc,
these are seen as out-of-order...?

I can see value in both ways of looking at things.
I really haven't noticed posters calling anybody out
or being rude.

 

[4peatssake]

I really haven't noticed posters calling anybody out
or being rude.

Just read the few posts above yours narouz. The rudeness is there as is someone calling the person out for being rude.

I think where people have been annoyed with your continued argument is the insistence that the rest of us are lying to ourselves or have some such other defect for not owning up to "the diet" as being restrictive, not much different from pboy accusing people of being slothful, non thinkers.

It's all very tiresome and rude.

 

[narouz]

And thank you, narouz, but no need to be sorry. You didn't offend me. It's all good! :)

LOL At all the KFC talk. But why no love for the biscuits? I use to love the biscuits and those potato wedge things. Yum!

Knowing what I do now about PUFA, Jennifer,
I don't know how I survived my many sordid rendezvous with KFC
and other fried chicken outlets.
If you look at the crust on those pieces of chicken--
how deep and porous it is--
and consider just how much soybean oil it can hold...
That must be a giant PUFA load!
And that's not even considering the chicken and chicken skin itself!
Or the other stuff like the biscuits--lots of soybean oil in them too I bet. :?

 

[sm1693]

When people are unwilling to seek perfection in something and kind of just sloth their way half way doing it or thinking that something not ideal is ideal, its really just coming from a desperate compulsive, unhappy, state of mind, so they don't even have the time to sit and do some thinking deep, ....

@pboy
To suggest that anybody who doesn't see or do things the way you consider to be perfect is motivated by sloth, desperation, and unhappiness, and that others are not doing their own thinking, is insulting.
Please keep to a higher standard of courtesy.

My opinion is not worth much, however, I strongly disagree with your assertion here, Tara.

I think that Pboy has proven himself thru his posts to be on a mission to search for the "truth" in this world, regardless of where he finds it. This "truth," as we find it, is highly likely to offend someone somewhere. Shall we not state what we find as "truth" because it possibly offends someone?

RP's views are extremely offensive to many people. He publishes them regardless. I am eternally grateful for him doing so, as I am to Pboy for making me consider new possibilities.

 

[narouz]

When people are unwilling to seek perfection in something and kind of just sloth their way half way doing it or thinking that something not ideal is ideal, its really just coming from a desperate compulsive, unhappy, state of mind, so they don't even have the time to sit and do some thinking deep, ....

@pboy
To suggest that anybody who doesn't see or do things the way you consider to be perfect is motivated by sloth, desperation, and unhappiness, and that others are not doing their own thinking, is insulting.
Please keep to a higher standard of courtesy.

My opinion is not worth much, however, I strongly disagree with your assertion here, Tara.

I think that Pboy has proven himself thru his posts to be on a mission to search for the "truth" in this world, regardless of where he finds it. This "truth," as we find it, is highly likely to offend someone somewhere. Shall we not state what we find as "truth" because it possibly offends someone?

RP's views are extremely offensive to many people. He publishes them regardless. I am eternally grateful for him doing so, as I am to Pboy for making me consider new possibilities.

Oh sm1693...
you know very well that pboy is renowned the board over
for his belligerence, his hatefulness, his aggressiveness,
and just his plain old orneriness, cussedness, and meanness!