Does Optimal Carb Intake Vary Between People?

[bboone]

do some people simply function better with less (read: not no) carbs? i know and know of people who eat relatively low amounts of carbs, and usually only in the form of potatoes, rice or occasional bread, who have extremely androgenic physical profiles. i.e. tall, heavily muscled, lean with full beards.

two examples among people i know would be one who eats about 2700 kcal a day of whichever food he cares to eat - no set macros - and is a lean 220 lbs at 6'1", working out six days a week. he has no energy issues, and has been living this way for 10 years. my other friend is a bit older, weighs a lean 190-192 at 6'2", with a full beard, does intermittent fasting but consumes 6000-8000 kcal a day of mostly animal products. he says he eats 15 eggs a day and doesn't drink milk. he eats potatoes occasionally and works out every day in addition to having a very physically demanding job. he has lived like this for at least five years. neither of them know anything about PUFAs and when i've brought up the dangers of PUFAs with them, neither seems to care. what is strange is that i'm significantly stronger than the latter example, despite weighing less and working out way, way less. the first example is probably among the strongest north americans in his weight category

how would people like this be explained from a peatean perspective? "genetics" are of course involved, but how? i've noticed it in myself too, that how i feel depends on my total caloric intake to a much, much higher degree than the macronutritional division.

 

[Andman]

self-reported calorie/food intake is usually extremely inaccurate, somtehing to keep in mind

 

[YourUniverse]

The more insulin sensitive you are, the more carbs you can eat.

Insulin sensitivity is multi factorial, but one of the (if not the) largest factors is body fat% --> leaner people will tend to be much more insulin sensitive.

 

[Cirion]

Isn't it the other way around? Insulin sensitive people are more efficient with calorie/carb intake and thus need less.

I know for me my carbohydrate needs are absolutely absurd while I'm unhealthy (600-750g a day) and if I don't get that much my temps and pulses tank like a rock.

RP himself ate upwards of 6000 calories a day if I recall correctly when he was younger, before he fixed his thyroid after which he only needs to eat something like 3000 a day.

 

[YourUniverse]

Ray's quote about needing less calories on thyroid medication has to do with thyroid being about energy efficiency, not insulin sensitivity

Healthy people do not need to overwhelm their system with sugar to get the sugar-feeding response, like unhealthy people do, and a lot of that is simply insulin sensitivity

 

[Cirion]

I would argue that energy efficiency goes hand in hand with insulin sensitivity.

With insulin resistance the carbs you're intaking don't get uptaken into the cells properly. By definition of insulin resistance, the cells are resisting the response from insulin. As a result, a lot of the carbs intaken don't get utilized.

 

[YourUniverse]

And since you're not satiated, you continue eating - why carbs keep fat people fat, and skinny (insulin sensitive) people skinny

 

[Cirion]

Oh yes no arguments there. But what's the solution? I'm pretty overweight now and if I don't eat the carbs, I get the stress response... which is just as bad if not worse than forgoing the calories to lose weight, basically screwed if you eat screwed if you don't. The only solution I can think of is bring down dietary fat, but same problem. Saturated fats are the best way to bring my temperature up, even more so than carbs, so those can't go either. And because my dietary fat needs are so high, PUFA goes up with it (Hard for me to go below 6-8g a day, but I'd like to be less than 4g). Heck, with how unhealthy I am, honestly, I should probably do less than 1G of PUFA a day. I guess I need to start eating pure saturated fats like MCT oils or even hydrogenated coconut oil. Less than 1G of PUFA a day basically means I should eat only fruit, skim milk, and straight MCT oil / hydrogenated coconut oil.

Actually fat does more than carbs to bring up my temps now that I think about it. Which almost means I should do almost a ketogenic diet, but ketogenic diets also make insulin resistance worse, so that even if I achieve a healthy body weight doing so, wouldn't I be stuck doing high fat at that point? Not to mention the PUFA problem I earlier mentioned. It all seems like a massive catch 22 that I can't reconcile to fix my health.

Ray says the solution to bring down body weight is to drop the dietary fat. I actually have no arguments that would probably result in weight loss. But weight loss =/= improving health and doesn't he fail to acknowledge that it's hard enough to keep up your pulses and temp when you're hypo and when you add in an additional stressor (calorie deficit) this just makes your health even worse? How do you reconcile that?

I was coached by Nathan Hatch for a while and he recommends just don't count calories and eat as much as you need to (basically a Matt Stone philosophy) but my weight gain is just getting ridiculous doing that, and I don't think that's working for me. But a calorie deficit doesn't work either, so what to do??

Even in a calorie surplus, I can't achieve good morning temperatures (Usually I'm not better than 98.0F waking up, never feel rested, can not seem to get that magical 98.6F upon waking up, even when I eat in the middle of the night every time I wake up). From what I've heard this is a serious sign of DHEA deficiency - but I take 1/2 TSP of tribulus terrestris a day (1/4 in morning 1/4 in night) and that's supposed to bring my DHEA up, and I think I notice it a little, but it's not doing a ton for me either.

 

[opson123]

I'm pretty much the opposite of you. I don't gain fat no matter how much I eat. I ate 4400kcal worth of milk chocolate for a month without fat or weight gain. I'm a lean 166cm/50kg male, can't pinch fat from anywhere. I'm shorter and weight less than most women, so 4400kcal is a lot of calories for me. My health is an absolute mess too. I didn't probably absorb most of the calories and wasted a lot of the ones I did.

That much chocolate just messed my gut, didn't get any improvements health wise. Now I eat 1100-1650kcal worth of chocolate.

 

[YourUniverse]

I think the solution is to listen to your appetite, and let the calculus of perfect theoretical diet go out the window for a little bit (while retaining the core knowledge of healthy vs unhealthy foods, though).

There is no reason a heavy person should be hungry all day - something is clearly amiss. If carbohydrate stimulates your appetite, I would see that as a warning flag. I would not jump on someone else's first hand testimonial, since we're all at varying levels of health.

 

[Cirion]

sorry if I'm derailing the thread. I'll switch to PM's if you want me to.

I'm pretty much the opposite of you. I don't gain fat no matter how much I eat. I ate 4400kcal worth of milk chocolate for a month without fat or weight gain. I'm a lean 166cm/50kg male, can't pinch fat from anywhere. I'm shorter and weight less than most women, so 4400kcal is a lot of calories for me. My health is an absolute mess too. I didn't probably absorb most of the calories and wasted a lot of the ones I did.

That much chocolate just messed my gut, didn't get any improvements health wise. Now I eat 1100-1650kcal worth of chocolate.

Consider yourself lucky!! I honestly wish I had that problem. But yeah, that's way too much chocolate, wow!!! lol

I think the solution is to listen to your appetite, and let the calculus of perfect theoretical diet go out the window for a little bit (while retaining the core knowledge of healthy vs unhealthy foods, though).

There is no reason a heavy person should be hungry all day - something is clearly amiss. If carbohydrate stimulates your appetite, I would see that as a warning flag. I would not jump on someone else's first hand testimonial, since we're all at varying levels of health.

Agreed - honestly my gut is telling me maybe drop the carbs a little bit and go really super high fat even higher than I am now. My main problem with that is how to do that and avoid the PUFA's though. If I eat keto, It's gonna be basically impossible to even get less than 10g of PUFA a day. My gut is also telling me avoiding PUFA is a top priority, which is in conflict with a high fat diet.

I've always done better on really high fat diets. I actually did a ketogenic diet with great success for over 2 yrs (Used to consistently do 300g fat a day or even more while maintaining my body weight). Great energy, great libido, great sleep. Say what you will about ketogenic diets, but if it was ruining my health, why was my sleep so great? Even with including generous PUFA's in that time frame (I used to eat lots of nut butter). I really only stopped after I decided I didn't want to do it anymore, for no particular reason other than a coach told me I could probably start introducing carbs again slowly.

 

[YourUniverse]

Since high-fat works so well for you, is there a way to eat keto-ish in the Peat stream of things? Maybe a very high cheese diet, a carrot, some cucumber or bell peppers, coffee, coconut oil, and 1 or 2 eggs? 2500 calories of that shouldnt be more than 7g PUFA per day, which is perfectly acceptable short term, while health is being restored.

The golden ideal is 60% calories from sugary carbs, 20% fat (and 0 PUFA), but the road we take to get there may be different.

You're a weight lifter, right? Think of it this way - the program that would induce growth on a 135lb bench press looks a LOT different than the program that would induce growth on a 315lb bench press. Let's take one step at a time, and scale upwards.

 

[Runenight201]

I think optimal carb intake will vary depending on activity level, but optimal energy and health will come from a diet with plenty of carbohydrates, and within the carbs consumed, more skewed towards fruit sugars.

Just because someone “thrives” on a low carb high fat doesn’t necessarily entail that’s the best diet for them, just one that they believe to be best.

By all means if they found something that works, then there’s no reason to tell them otherwise, but if they start running into problems, one can kindly show them the light.

 

[Cirion]

Well all I know is that I have gained a lot of body weight on a higher carbohydrate diet, even with most of the carbs from fruit and not "junk" sugars like white sugar. Now I'll be the first to admit that a lot of that is probably because I've eaten higher fat as well, but every time I try to drop fat, it doesn't end well for me in terms of stress responses. So, it sounds like my best bet is to try limiting PUFA's and that should really help. From what I have learned, I think my stress response from limiting fat comes from liberating PUFA's from body fat stores, so if I can manage to limit PUFA intake while having high saturated/stearic acid, it may just work out for me.

 

[bboone]

Well all I know is that I have gained a lot of body weight on a higher carbohydrate diet, even with most of the carbs from fruit and not "junk" sugars like white sugar. Now I'll be the first to admit that a lot of that is probably because I've eaten higher fat as well, but every time I try to drop fat, it doesn't end well for me in terms of stress responses. So, it sounds like my best bet is to try limiting PUFA's and that should really help. From what I have learned, I think my stress response from limiting fat comes from liberating PUFA's from body fat stores, so if I can manage to limit PUFA intake while having high saturated/stearic acid, it may just work out for me.

strange.. increasing my fat and decreasing my carbs (not eliminating) while keeping calories constant makes me lean down. i feel better on high sugar, although i dont eat nearly as much of it as many of the guys here (i range between 150-300g sugar a day, i believe). you ever consider the possibility that you may have some sort of digestive issue? ive never noticed a response to PUFA, i just limited my intake due to a theoretical conviction, but if you can actually feel the effects of it there may be some sort of gut sensitivity going on...

 

[Cirion]

Sensitivity to PUFA is likely increased if you're unhealthy like myself. I think a strong healthy body can mitigate the damaging effects of PUFA more readily. An unhealthy body is going to be more sensitive to any negative stressor of any kind, not just food, but also EMF (which btw I also have EMF sensitivity now whereas I didn't really have that before) and just the chronic every day stressors in life.

After all, we see this time and time again - people who are healthy can eat whatever they want and seemingly get away from it. In this case, PUFA's are a ticking time bomb (which will affect them eventually) rather than an immediate inflammatory response that you notice. Which basically agrees with RP's philosophy - he says that PUFA's slowly accumulate in the body as you age and so you won't notice until later.

Yeah I almost definitely have digestive issues. I tried high dose activated charcoal with little effect which leads me to believe that its parasites that I have, just through deductive reasoning so I plan to do a de-worming protocol soon.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I'm pretty much the opposite of you. I don't gain fat no matter how much I eat. I ate 4400kcal worth of milk chocolate for a month without fat or weight gain. I'm a lean 166cm/50kg male, can't pinch fat from anywhere. I'm shorter and weight less than most women, so 4400kcal is a lot of calories for me. My health is an absolute mess too. I didn't probably absorb most of the calories and wasted a lot of the ones I did.

That much chocolate just messed my gut, didn't get any improvements health wise. Now I eat 1100-1650kcal worth of chocolate.

Interesting. I'm almost the same height as you( usually 162cm/163cm), but I weigh more now(58 kilograms). Do you have good amounts of muscle? I remember that when I weighed 50 kg, my health wasn't in a good place. I used to undereat a lot due to gut problems. I remember eating a lot of chocolate as a child, which may have been one of the causes of my gastrointestinal issues. Nowadays I eat at least 3000 calories per day, and although I gained some fat( not very much in the belly, mostly on thighs and legs), I defintely gained a lot of muscle, which I consider a good trade-off. Do you know how your hormones are? Getting stress hormones down and anabolic hormones up will definitely improve things. I did this without thyroid, which for me is hard to get currently. Taurine and vitamin b1 were probably the things that helped me the most, along with sucrose and gelatin. Regarding absorption of food,. maybe gelatin can help? It is good even for people with celiac disease. According to this study(Collagen peptides ameliorate intestinal epithelial barrier dysfunction in immunostimulatory Caco-2 cell monolayers via enhancing tight junctions. - PubMed - NCBI), lowering TNF-alfa improves the barrier function of the gut. Maybe lowering it improves absorption of nutrientes too, since less inflammation means the tissue is functioning better. Have you tried cyproheptadine? It's great for lowering stress hormones and improving metabolism, but I wouldn't use if you aren't using thyroid or if your thyroid in at least ok shape.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

do some people simply function better with less (read: not no) carbs? i know and know of people who eat relatively low amounts of carbs, and usually only in the form of potatoes, rice or occasional bread, who have extremely androgenic physical profiles. i.e. tall, heavily muscled, lean with full beards.

two examples among people i know would be one who eats about 2700 kcal a day of whichever food he cares to eat - no set macros - and is a lean 220 lbs at 6'1", working out six days a week. he has no energy issues, and has been living this way for 10 years. my other friend is a bit older, weighs a lean 190-192 at 6'2", with a full beard, does intermittent fasting but consumes 6000-8000 kcal a day of mostly animal products. he says he eats 15 eggs a day and doesn't drink milk. he eats potatoes occasionally and works out every day in addition to having a very physically demanding job. he has lived like this for at least five years. neither of them know anything about PUFAs and when i've brought up the dangers of PUFAs with them, neither seems to care. what is strange is that i'm significantly stronger than the latter example, despite weighing less and working out way, way less. the first example is probably among the strongest north americans in his weight category

how would people like this be explained from a peatean perspective? "genetics" are of course involved, but how? i've noticed it in myself too, that how i feel depends on my total caloric intake to a much, much higher degree than the macronutritional division.

I think that it may be that these people had great childhoods, as well a very stress-free time in the womb. Being breast-fed until you are 4 or 5 years old is probably very protective,but nowadays doctors say that breastfeeding for a year or two is good enough. A childhood where you don't need to worry if you are going to pass a test or think if you are going to be a lawyer or a doctor is much more healthful than what is present currently. Kids are sent to schools where they can't do things they want to do or go to places they want to explore. And where is the sun exposure? Teens in my country have to be in school both in the morning and in the afternoon as well. That's why past generations have stronger people who can handle less than ideal envinornments just fine. They aren't imune, since one day they suddenly aren't going to tolerate it anymore. My father is a great example of this: he was breast fed until the age of 4 and during his childhood he mainly was outside playing. He did go to school, but it was just in the morning and he had a bunch of free time. He has no food allergies and is never constipated and has no problems sleeping. Nowadays he has hypothyroidism, but he's still very strong. I'm not saying that if you didn't have a good early life, you are doomed. As long as you know what is wrong and know what to do about( which unfortunately many people don't), then any problem can be overcome. I'm just saying that it's easier to be healthy when your foundation is solid.

 

[Waynish]

Does optimal food intake vary between people? Does an infant and a powerlifter eat the same amount? ...

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Well all I know is that I have gained a lot of body weight on a higher carbohydrate diet, even with most of the carbs from fruit and not "junk" sugars like white sugar. Now I'll be the first to admit that a lot of that is probably because I've eaten higher fat as well, but every time I try to drop fat, it doesn't end well for me in terms of stress responses. So, it sounds like my best bet is to try limiting PUFA's and that should really help. From what I have learned, I think my stress response from limiting fat comes from liberating PUFA's from body fat stores, so if I can manage to limit PUFA intake while having high saturated/stearic acid, it may just work out for me.

Yeah, fructose, although it doesn't stimulate nearly as much insulin as glucose, has lipid sparing and source shifting properties. That means, in other words, that you burn less fat and more carbs. According to the study I saw, cconversion of fructose into fat is very limited, less than 1%, at least on a isocaloric diet. Because fructose doesn't stimulate insulin, more fat stays in the blood, since insulin activates lipoprotein lipase, which has the function of absorbing fat of the blood into the fat stores. If that fat that remains in the blood is PUFA, then it's possible that they are causing the stress reactions, which are blocked by the saturated fats when you consume some. That may mean that when your PUFA stores are more emptied, you will be able to tolerate low fat better. Have you tried vitamin E?