The Long-Winded Digestion Thread

[visionofstrength]

Does anyone know Ray's opinion about gelatin and also coconut water when a person has an inflamed gut?

I imagine it's all highly individual, but I've read where people mention possible endotoxin issues with gelatin and I'm a bit confused by that. I thought gelatin was protective to the gut lining or am I mistaken?

Also, I think I read where Ray says coconut water is fine and that it's the proteins in mature coconuts/unrefined oil/milk that can be allergenic. Does anyone remember if he said this?

A forum member reported that he said this about coconut water:

If it is fresh from the coconut, it's good, also if it has been bottled without additives.

Peat seems to use the hydrolysate gelatin from Great Lakes, which can dissolve even in cold water.

 

[Jennifer]

Oh, perfect! Thank you, P! :)

I just order some of the GL hydrolysate so I'll be using it in my milk when it comes in, but until then, I'm going to try using some "additive free" coconut water to make some gummies since I can't touch juice or coffee at this point and I'm looking to get some more minerals into my diet.

I can't remember, do you consume gelatin?

 

[visionofstrength]

I can't remember, do you consume gelatin?

Yes, I use gelatin before bed, 2-3 tablespoons with aspirin, and in the morning, one tablespoon with liver.

 

[tara]

On the oxygen saturation reading I would just keep an eye on it for now. This is of course NOT medical advice. 90-92% (90% being most common in my experience) is the customary number at which if you were in the emergency room (for example) the reading would start to be of concern and you might be administered a small amount of oxygen. Fluctuations of a couple points are very common. Your body is going through a lot of changes so your numbers may fluctuate some. I have seen people with two different readings at the exact same moment in time as measured by a different oximeter on different fingers. I think looking at the trend in the numbers is sensible. There are multiple variables that can result in a small change in the reading that may make it not exactly correct such as the equipment function, temperature of the fingers and your circulation being the most common. That's just my opinion.

Once I did Buteyko between readings and it went from 98 to 100.

Hi Blossom, The reason that 90-92 is treated in an emergency room is that it is often a precursor to a life-threatening condition. Below 90% there is what's call a "slippery slope" and oxygenation can crash very quickly, causing fainting or worse.

Oxygen saturation can also vary considerably during exercise, or bag breathing.

However, routinely low oxygen saturation -- when at rest -- is an indication of chronic (not yet emergency) cardiovascular disease. In particular, 95% is below the 2% margin of error for even most $30 oximeters. When Peat talks about the importance of oxygen reaching the tissue, he is indirectly talking about oxygen saturation. Lower is not good.*

*Unless you are at high altitude, when the blood may have a correspondingly higher percentage of carbon dioxide (in which case, oxygen delivery is, paradoxically, better).

Yeah, I understand what you are saying about the P50/oxygen dissociation curve. I was just using the ER as an example but you have to be careful with examples being misunderstood or taken out of context. I just didn't want sunmountain to panic needlessly. My spo2 was 99-100% on diamox btw.

SPO2: Out of curiosity, I think the oximeter measure oxygen saturaton in blood, not the tissues being supplied by the blood - is this right?
What effects have people observed while bag-breathing, or while doing Buteyko or other reduced breathing practice? I would have expected reduced breathing practice to slightly reduce blood oxygen saturation, but to improve delivery of oxygen to tissues because of the increased CO2. Is that born out by anyone who has an oximeter and does such practice? The increased CO2 should also improve bloodflow to extremities - the change to warmer pinker fingers and toes is often reported.

 

[tara]

Regarding thyroid, my understanding of Peat is that one should gradually increase it until waking temps and pulse are within a normal range. For the past three months, while working on diet, I could tolerate only 25mcg of T4, and nearly next to nothing of T3.

I am wondering if increasing thyroid can have a negative effect on oxygen saturation, or whether the decrease might be linked to something else. Assuming that the oxy is working fine, and that today's dip is not a one-time fluke, which will be known in the coming days.

Any thoughts on that would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Peat's view is that you should not take any t4/t3 unless or until your liver is producing adequate cholesterol. T4/t3 is known to be dangerous, to your heart in particular. Peat recounts how he developed an irregular heartbeat when he overdosed on T3.

The concerns with cyproheptadine are just as great. Peat may have suggested it, in email, for cancer:

Cyproheptadine, 2 to 4 mg at bedtime, would help with his sleep as well as the cancer.

My concern is that you may be asking for these prescriptions based on advice you may think you're seeing in this forum. Please understand that no one in this forum is giving you any such advice. Each person's experience in this forum is completely unique, and no generalized advice, especially about prescription medication, should be trusted or relied on.

I agree that information and suggestions on the forum are thoughts from mostly lay-people, not medical advice. Also agree that it is wise to be cautious about using medicines, since they can have strong and sometimes negative consequences.

I agree that DR Peat generally suggests making the diet that primary focus for improved health (often supplemented with progesterone and cautious use of T3 and T4 where indicated).

As I understand it, from time to time Dr Peat suggests trying specific drugs for a short time, seldom for long term use.

Cyproheptadine specifically is not a prescription drug in some countries, including ones that are quite restrictive about regulating drugs (and hormones) - easy to get from pharmacy. It's an old drug that was widely and liberally used as an antihistamine. I think it is one of two (along with diphenhydramine) that Dr Peat has suggested as much safer than later antihistamines, and has suggested to many people for different issues. It has largely been replaced as an antihistamine because it tends to cause drowsiness in many people. It can also increase appetite, which makes it useful against anorexia, but some people don't like that effect. It seems to have both antihistamine and anti-serotonin effects.

If anyone is aware of particular dangers with cyproheptadine either short or long term (other than those arising from trying to do stuff light drive while too drowsy), I would like to know about them. Can it slow gut transit by it's anti-serotonin action? I am just starting to experiment with it. I have been assuming it is safer than many drugs.

In the last 3 weeks, I have taken varying amounts - 1,2,3 milligrams in a day, and a couple of times up to 8mg within an hour (box says take one then another 1/2 hr later if needed) in an attempt to stop a migraine. So far, 2mg is enough to make me drowsy, 8mg makes it impossible to keep eyes open - with sometimes a lag of up to a couple of hours after taking it. I also get a slightly dry mouth. I think I like the effects so far, but they have no dramatically improved my situation.

 

[Blossom]

On the oxygen saturation reading I would just keep an eye on it for now. This is of course NOT medical advice. 90-92% (90% being most common in my experience) is the customary number at which if you were in the emergency room (for example) the reading would start to be of concern and you might be administered a small amount of oxygen. Fluctuations of a couple points are very common. Your body is going through a lot of changes so your numbers may fluctuate some. I have seen people with two different readings at the exact same moment in time as measured by a different oximeter on different fingers. I think looking at the trend in the numbers is sensible. There are multiple variables that can result in a small change in the reading that may make it not exactly correct such as the equipment function, temperature of the fingers and your circulation being the most common. That's just my opinion.

Once I did Buteyko between readings and it went from 98 to 100.

Hi Blossom, The reason that 90-92 is treated in an emergency room is that it is often a precursor to a life-threatening condition. Below 90% there is what's call a "slippery slope" and oxygenation can crash very quickly, causing fainting or worse.

Oxygen saturation can also vary considerably during exercise, or bag breathing.

However, routinely low oxygen saturation -- when at rest -- is an indication of chronic (not yet emergency) cardiovascular disease. In particular, 95% is below the 2% margin of error for even most $30 oximeters. When Peat talks about the importance of oxygen reaching the tissue, he is indirectly talking about oxygen saturation. Lower is not good.*

*Unless you are at high altitude, when the blood may have a correspondingly higher percentage of carbon dioxide (in which case, oxygen delivery is, paradoxically, better).

Yeah, I understand what you are saying about the P50/oxygen dissociation curve. I was just using the ER as an example but you have to be careful with examples being misunderstood or taken out of context. I just didn't want sunmountain to panic needlessly. My spo2 was 99-100% on diamox btw.

SPO2: Out of curiosity, I think the oximeter measure oxygen saturaton in blood, not the tissues being supplied by the blood - is this right?
What effects have people observed while bag-breathing, or while doing Buteyko or other reduced breathing practice? I would have expected reduced breathing practice to slightly reduce blood oxygen saturation, but to improve delivery of oxygen to tissues because of the increased CO2. Is that born out by anyone who has an oximeter and does such practice? The increased CO2 should also improve bloodflow to extremities - the change to warmer pinker fingers and toes is often reported.

The spo2 reading is measuring the saturation of the red blood cell. If the blood cells were saturated from carbon monoxide such as someone being trapped in a burning building the oximeter will read 100% saturated but in that case the red blood cell is not saturated with oxygen but carbon monoxide. Pulse oximeters can be a handy tool but they do have limitations. A smoker will usually have a couple point higher reading after just smoking because of the presence of carbon monoxide. It's just estimating how saturated the RBC' are and we can predict it is normally with oxygen if we do not smoke or hang out in carbon monoxide rich environments. It's a handy tool but does only provide a quick estimate of oxygen in the blood. If the body is using that oxygen efficiently is another story.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I don't know what happens to the hemoglobin but if the finger is warmer and pinker I figure that is what gets measured and oxygen delivery is surely improved.

 

[Blossom]

I don't know what happens to the hemoglobin but if the finger is warmer and pinker I figure that is what gets measured and oxygen delivery is surely improved.

I agree. Warmer and pinker fingers have better blood flow.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I don't know what happens to the hemoglobin but if the finger is warmer and pinker I figure that is what gets measured and oxygen delivery is surely improved.

I agree. Warmer and pinker fingers have better blood flow.

I remember the first time I tried to donate blood they told me to skip breakfast and my fingers were completely white. Of course I did not pass the test. The next time I went I had a quart of milk and an eight of Cynomel, the doctor said "WOW". Of course just saying about the milk worried her enough so I kept my mouth shut.

 

[jyb]

I remember the first time I tried to donate blood they told me to skip breakfast and my fingers were completely white. Of course I did not pass the test. The next time I went I had a quart of milk and an eight of Cynomel, the doctor said "WOW". Of course just saying about the milk worried her enough so I kept my mouth shut.

You failed the copper sulfate test? I'm curious as to why your hemoglobins were too low. As RP wrote, this could incorrectly diagnosed as iron deficiency. (Also why did they advise to skip breakfast?!)

 

[Such_Saturation]

I remember the first time I tried to donate blood they told me to skip breakfast and my fingers were completely white. Of course I did not pass the test. The next time I went I had a quart of milk and an eight of Cynomel, the doctor said "WOW". Of course just saying about the milk worried her enough so I kept my mouth shut.

You failed the copper sulfate test? I'm curious as to why your hemoglobins were too low. As RP wrote, this could incorrectly diagnosed as iron deficiency. (Also why did they advise to skip breakfast?!)

I failed either an oximeter or hemoglobin or glycemia test. They asked me to shake my arm first since the finger was white, still failed. The first time is just a blood test unless you really want to donate, so they tell you to fast. Virtually the mishandling of iron and copper in hypothyroidism is identical to a deficiency so you cannot really blame them.

 

[Jennifer]

I thought it would be better to respond to your question, P, in the digestion thread.

All I know is, the only thing I've done differently over these past 4+ days is I stopped taking the AC and my skin has healed right up!

When I do self-experimentation, I try to write down as many of the variables of the body as I can on a day to day basis. I find there may be many unexpected causes. For example, I think you wrote on Aug. 31 that you stopped taking glutamine (which has the reported side effect of causing skin rash if taken in excess).

To start off, I had a rash for 6 years prior to taking the Glutagenics.

I had started taking the Glutagenics around the same time I cut my diet down to just milk, homemade cottage cheese, sugar and coconut oil and then later, a carrot a day. All this before ever starting the activated charcoal. Mind you, at that point I had no numbing of fingers and toes and the rash I was dealing with previously had started to go away. I added in the AC and I noticed after a few nights of taking it, my fingers started to go numb at the tips and the rest of my body seemed to ache more, but my skin was getting really soft. Keep in mind I was still taking the Glutagenics and doing the milk and sugar diet at that point.

After you quoted me what Ray said about glutamine and that you found that rashing and numbness were symptoms from it, I cut it out of my diet and a few nights later took some more AC. I woke to numb hands and what seemed to be an itchy rash forming all over my chin. I chocked it up to a fluke and took the next night off from taking it. After that night off, I started back on the AC taking it right before bed and woke in the middle of the night with my whole face on fire and itching and at that point, my face had actually started to blister on my chin, near my nose and all around my mouth. In desperation to make the itching and burning stop, I went downstairs and took some Glutagenics. When I got up in the morning, the itching had subsided. After that, I stopped taking both the AC and Glutagenics. It's been over 4 days now and my face is pretty much all healed up.

My diet has been the same dairy and sugar diet during the Glutagenics and AC experiment, except I had a tablespoon of homemade cold-brewed coffee added to a glass of milk one day a while back. Other than that, I've been consistent.

I honestly think that it was the Glutagenics that was preventing the rash from the AC because it wasn't till I stopped taking the Glut. that all heck broke loose. Maybe the licorice root extract or the aloe extract in the Glutagenics helped protect my gut lining? I don't know. All I know is my gut obviously can't tolerate the AC at this point. I wish it could!

 

[visionofstrength]

I had a rash for 6 years...

The only contraindication I can find for charcoal is a skin disease called porphyria, which is associated with an excess of estrogen. Do you think you may have that?

Peat writes:

The relation between estrogen and porphyrin (which can be seen in some types of porphyria), and their association with cancer susceptibility, probably is a consequence of estrogen's interference with blood oxygenation, which would tend to cause exaggerated production of heine in various tissues.

Description and photos here:
http://www.medindia.net/patients/patien ... phyria.htm

 

[Jennifer]

Hmm...I would say no. My estrogen levels are on the low end of normal, my prolactin (indicator of total body estrogen) is low and I've been taking progest-e for over a year, with one month here and there of not taking it. I'm currently not taking it due to it messing with my cycle and libido, but my progesterone level is still high.

Also, I don't get the rash if my diet doesn't include dairy, fruits and starches. If I eat a diet devoid of dairy, the rash goes away, though not the bloat. If my diet includes dairy, I have to cut out fruits and starches so I don't get a rash and I have much less bloating. See how confusing it is, P?

I've tried 3 rounds of antibiotics (Neomycin), goldenseal, pharmaceutical strength oregano oil, flowers of sulphur, Glutagenics and diatomaceous earth (during RBTI). There's probably more I'm forgetting.

Again, before fruitarianism and my injury, I never had this problem. My skin was flawless my whole life up until I got hurt.

Wilfrid, who had Crohn's, had this to say on the Lowering Adrenaline thread:

There is a very good thread on coconut oil and charcoal.
I was never never able to tolerate charcoal or CO ( even the tropical traditions refined one) during acute intestinal inflammation. Never. But like Blossom and 4PS said on the coconut oil thread, reaction to those are highly individual.

So it looks like possible negative reactions to AC aren't that uncommon if one has some serious gut inflammation?

Honestly, the stress from my injury has really screwed up my body in so many ways that it feels like I'm trying to prevent Niagara Falls with a bucket. So I'm no reflection of AC's safety. I'm sure it's beneficial for many people.

Anyhow, thanks for searching for a cause to the rash. I'll figure out how to heal my gut somehow.

 

[visionofstrength]

Wilfrid, who had Crohn's, had this to say on the Lowering Adrenaline thread:

There is a very good thread on coconut oil and charcoal.
I was never never able to tolerate charcoal or CO ( even the tropical traditions refined one) during acute intestinal inflammation. Never. But like Blossom and 4PS said on the coconut oil thread, reaction to those are highly individual.

So it looks like possible negative reactions to AC aren't that uncommon if one has some serious gut inflammation?

Please do not rely on the comments made on this forum to make any viable conclusions about your own health. The comments made here are not advice intended to be trusted or relied on.

There is a database of reported side effects for the substance Activated Charcoal, which is used in emergency rooms worldwide. It does not (that I can see) contain reports of skin blistering, even after millions of uses of the substance. In fact, of all the substances in the database, charcoal has among the fewest incidents reported. And if reactions were, as Wilfrid seems to say, "highly individual", shouldn't that be reflected by a large number of reports in the database?

I'm keen to ask Wilfrid more about his experience though, to see what sort of (anecdotal) highly individual information I can learn.

 

[Lin]

Hey, guys, I just want to point out, and I know that you realize already... What they do to you in the Emergency Room is not necessarily health promoting. They are trying to save your life! They might give you a massive dose of charcoal, even knowing that it will irritate your gut, but that is better your dying. In CPR, they might break your ribs, burn you with electroshock, they know that can heal later, the goal is to keep you alive right now.

Taking charcoal continuously is a whole different ball game.

 

[visionofstrength]

Hey, guys, I just want to point out, and I know that you realize already... What they do to you in the Emergency Room is not necessarily health promoting. They are trying to save your life! They might give you a massive dose of charcoal, even knowing that it will irritate your gut, but that is better your dying. In CPR, they might break your ribs, burn you with electroshock, they know that can heal later, the goal is to keep you alive right now.

Taking charcoal continuously is a whole different ball game.

Hi, L! AFAIK, the reason they give you charcoal in the emergency room is because it is both effective and and known to be safe. There are other poison controls they could give you, but those are not known to be safe. Agree?

Why is taking charcoal different? Do you have studies you can share? I've seen a number of studies done in 1950-1970 that track long term use of charcoal, and that all conclude that long term use is harmless.

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm working in this field and trying to learn as much as I can (as fast as I can), and I'm having trouble finding references, since pharmaceutical companies don't study charcoal - no money in it for them!

 

[Lin]

Ah, Vision, I wasn't talking about studies. I was talking about logic.
So, how much AC are you taking? What brand? What differences have you noticed, or not, since taking it?

 

[Suikerbuik]

I'm working in this field and trying to learn as much as I can (as fast as I can)

Interesting, in what field do you work? Hope not as a salesman of CO and/or charcoal

Because in the other thread we're indeed going off-topic. Could you elaborate your saying?

My five mile high understanding is, that bacteria are not bad or good, but the endotoxins produced by bacteria respond to the environment.

(underlining is mine)

 

[Suikerbuik]

Just a few observation I had with charcoal. Does charcoal normal fizzes when it get's in contact with water? If you dissolve the stuff is it normal to some "grey" layer forming on the surface?