“You have a disease mimicking Gulf war Syndrome”.

[Highserotonin90]

@pubh12 Have you ever done a venous blood gas to see the real mineral data? including potassium. Have you also had erythrocyte cholinesterase tests done? really low potassium does not cause vasoconstriction directly like chronic high acetylcholine does (the parasympathetic state prevails and if you try to force norepinephrine into a sympathetic state in an attempt to sweat it doesn't happen) but it usually causes air hunger because the diaphragm struggles to move.

 

[pubh12]

@pubh12 Have you ever done a venous blood gas to see the real mineral data? including potassium. Have you also had erythrocyte cholinesterase tests done? really low potassium does not cause vasoconstriction directly like chronic high acetylcholine does (the parasympathetic state prevails and if you try to force norepinephrine into a sympathetic state in an attempt to sweat it doesn't happen) but it usually causes air hunger because the diaphragm struggles to move.

I had arterial blood glasses last year that nobody mentioned anything about so I assume they didn’t see anything. I don’t know if they would have checked potassium

I’m trying to find somehwere that tests cholinesterases but am having no luck.

I guess that’s an interesting point. I don’t really know for sure if my whistle on exhale sound is from bronchoconstriction or from perhaps a dysfunctional diaphragm. It whistle sound is positional and can get worse in different positions and sometimes I don’t hear it at all if I’m upright for a bit , but the breathing still stays impaired.

A whistle usually indicates airway obstruction I suppose there’s instances a diaphgram not expanding could do that. I had an emg on my phrenic nerve and couldn’t feel one side move like I could when he stimulated the other side. The neurologist said it didn’t matter but I’m not as convinced. When I lay flat it’s almost impossible to belly breath like I could before the breathing issues began.

I’d love to get a sniff test or something to test diaphgram function. I’m stopping to beta blockers and going to pick up potassium consumption to see if that at least can help with my expansion issues.

 

[Highserotonin90]

@pubh12 Give magnesium sulphate a try, it could help bronchoconstriction and do erythrocyte cholinesterase tests, it's essential.

 

[pubh12]

@Highserotonin90

Regarding your second to last post in this thread- Can a high parasympathetic state actually cause you not to sweat? I thought increased or chronically high acetylcholine would cause sweating but certainly isn’t the case for me. And acetylcholine being high = high parasympathetic state? Just a bit confused about that.

 

[lilrawhoney]

Flush niacin (nicotinic acid) has long been used to successfully treat Gulf War Syndrome. If I were you, I’d definitely give it a try!

 

[Highserotonin90]

Sure. Acetylcholine governs the parasympathetic state while norepinephrine governs the sympathetic state. To answer your question about not sweating, this definitely has a correlation, in fact I'm pretty sure of it. Magnesium sulfate could also help you not only for asthma due to bronchospasm but Wikipedia also reports an anticholinergic effect. It strongly specifies the sulfated form and not the others.
@pubh12

 

[Highserotonin90]

@lilrawhoney
The body would not use it and it would be eliminated because you will not be able to make NAPDH.

 

[pubh12]

@lilrawhoney
The body would not use it and it would be eliminated because you will not be able to make NAPDH.

So you think taking niacin in my case would be useless? Why couldn’t I convert it to NAPDH?

 

[youngsinatra]

Have you ever measured serum CoQ10? (or supplemented it?)
Ever tried ketogenic diet? (or alternatively a high carb low fat diet)
Tried L-carnitine, alpha-lipoic acid, creatine?
Took activated B vitamins?
Checked serum Cu, Zn, Se + full iron panel?

A lot of what you are describing sounds like mitochondriopathy which cause systemic symptoms that affect nearly all organs.

People like Dr. Terry Wahls reversed (or rather put it into stable remission) her MS and regained full functionality with a strict diet and mitochondrial supplements. She only relapses when she eats foods she is sensitive to, (and if she stops the mitochondrial supplements) and recommends every client of her to avoid gluten, dairy, eggs, corn, soy for 100 days straight without cheating to bring down inflammation levels. I know it can be hard if one is nearly disabled from severe illness…. Do you have family that could cook for you?

 

[Highserotonin90]

@youngsinatra I can guarantee you that if acetylcholinesterase remains even slightly inhibited in an irreversible way, the body eliminates all those things and/or deposits them where you don't want them. It is a truly serious problem which in the most chronic and deep-rooted cases requires gastric lavage, aphoresis / dialysis / Chelation. The toxins that bind to that enzyme are poured onto the erythrocytes. Nothing prevents you from taking mitochondrial supplements but I see this as a useless move in this context in which only the symptoms mimic what you said. I say this in a calm and friendly way, no controversy.

 

[Highserotonin90]

@pubh12 I would only focus on treating global inflammation, having good bile flow, doing breathing exercises, promoting detox with exogenous antioxidants like NAC.

 

[youngsinatra]

@youngsinatra I can guarantee you that if acetylcholinesterase remains even slightly inhibited in an irreversible way, the body eliminates all those things and/or deposits them where you don't want them. It is a truly serious problem which in the most chronic and deep-rooted cases requires gastric lavage, aphoresis / dialysis / Chelation. The toxins that bind to that enzyme are poured onto the erythrocytes. Nothing prevents you from taking mitochondrial supplements but I see this as a useless move in this context in which only the symptoms mimic what you said. I say this in a calm and friendly way, no controversy.

Why do other people do not experience those severe systemic symptoms from very strong procholinergic drugs like donapezil?

He is taking a bunch of antihistamines and even said that anticholinergics don’t help his symptoms. Even if cholinesterase is severly inhibited, anticholinergics (like atropine) should still help as those drugs are used in cholinergic crisis cases.

I used to believe that high acetylcholine caused a lot of my health issues, but I have become very wary with that view.

 

[pubh12]

Why do other people do not experience those severe systemic symptoms from very strong procholinergic drugs like donapezil?

He is taking a bunch of antihistamines and even said that anticholinergics don’t help his symptoms. Even if cholinesterase is severly inhibited, anticholinergics (like atropine) should still help as those drugs are used in cholinergic crisis cases.

I used to believe that high acetylcholine caused a lot of my health issues, but I have become very wary with that view.

My question would be, IF acetylcholinesterase is inhibited in a significant way, would atrovent or other anticholinergics even be affective? They will only affect receptors that aren’t being activated by acetylcholine. So, in normal asthma it would be affective since sufficient acetylcholinesterase exists to continuously remove acetylcholine and give the anticholinergics a chance to bind and block those receptors.

Without sufficient Acetylcholinesterase in the fist place, when are those drugs going to get a chance to block the receptors if the acetylcholine is not being aptly removed ?

 

[youngsinatra]

My question would be, IF acetylcholinesterase is inhibited in a significant way, would atrovent or other anticholinergics even be affective? They will only affect receptors that aren’t being activated by acetylcholine. So, in normal asthma it would be affective since sufficient acetylcholinesterase exists to continuously remove acetylcholine and give the anticholinergics a chance to bind and block those receptors.

Without sufficient Acetylcholinesterase in the fist place, when are those drugs going to get a chance to block the receptors if the acetylcholine is not being aptly removed ?

Cholinergic crisis is typically caused by poisons that inhibit acetylcholinesterase and in those cases atropine still works.

Even if there is excess acetylcholine floating around, the receptor is what matters to counteract the poisoning.

 

[pubh12]

Cholinergic crisis is typically caused by poisons that inhibit acetylcholinesterase and in those cases atropine still works.

Even if there is excess acetylcholine floating around, the receptor is what matters to counteract the poisoning.

They’d only work in a cholinergic crisis brought about by reversible acetylcholinesterase inhibitors , no? In actual gulf war syndrome they probably wouldn’t save a life of someone suffocating to death from irreversible inhibition. Is that wrong? I really don’t know much about this , just trying to understand.

 

[pubh12]

@youngsinatra I can guarantee you that if acetylcholinesterase remains even slightly inhibited in an irreversible way, the body eliminates all those things and/or deposits them where you don't want them. It is a truly serious problem which in the most chronic and deep-rooted cases requires gastric lavage, aphoresis / dialysis / Chelation. The toxins that bind to that enzyme are poured onto the erythrocytes. Nothing prevents you from taking mitochondrial supplements but I see this as a useless move in this context in which only the symptoms mimic what you said. I say this in a calm and friendly way, no controversy.

Are there any tests you can order online to get those cholinesterases tested ? I’m out of luck locally. That sounds like a very difficult situation to get out of. Would normal oral chelators ever be affective alone?

 

[lilrawhoney]

So you think taking niacin in my case would be useless? Why couldn’t I convert it to NAPDH?

If I were you, I’d give it a try. Niacin is safe and it has been used successfully to treat gulf war syndrome. It is one of the best ways to open up detox pathways and get bile flowing again. I would also look into the low vitamin A/low toxin diet.

I didn’t have anything as severe as you, but I’ve had what felt like breathing issues for years now. It felt hard to take a deep breathe and to get enough air, especially laying down at night and I’d have mild wheezing and whistling when I breathed out. I’d get out of breathe easily doing normal activities. It would send me into a panic a lot of times. Learning about toxic bile theory made so much sense to me. I’ve only been on low A and taking niacin for a little over a month now, and though I still have a ways to go with my health, the breathing issues have completely disappeared for me.

 

[youngsinatra]

They’d only work in a cholinergic crisis brought about by reversible acetylcholinesterase inhibitors , no? In actual gulf war syndrome they probably wouldn’t save a life of someone suffocating to death from irreversible inhibition. Is that wrong? I really don’t know much about this , just trying to understand.

Have you been exposed to a nerve poison like those in the gulf war?

 

[pubh12]

Have you been exposed to a nerve poison like those in the gulf war?

Not to my knowledge. But I guess my worry is heavy metals like mercury etc are accumulating to a ridiculous degree which are also known to irreversibly inhibit acetylcholinesterase . Especially since I don’t sweat and have other signs of very poor detox. I’ve made mention of never getting sick in six years. If the notion that these acute sicknesses are indeed “detox events” is true, then I would not be surprised at all if I had enough toxic build up of metals or whatever inhibiting these enzymes to a dangerous degree. I’m getting metals tested.

So really for this theory to make sense , I’d have to have acetylcholinesterase inhibited continuously , and that may be through zero removal of toxic metals etc. It’s .. a long shot , truthfully. But long shots are the only thing keeping me alive at this point from a mental perspective. But also don’t want to chase false hope either.

Extremely depressing it’s become this bad, this young.

 

[pubh12]

If I were you, I’d give it a try. Niacin is safe and it has been used successfully to treat gulf war syndrome. It is one of the best ways to open up detox pathways and get bile flowing again. I would also look into the low vitamin A/low toxin diet.

I didn’t have anything as severe as you, but I’ve had what felt like breathing issues for years now. It felt hard to take a deep breathe and to get enough air, especially laying down at night and I’d have mild wheezing and whistling when I breathed out. I’d get out of breathe easily doing normal activities. It would send me into a panic a lot of times. Learning about toxic bile theory made so much sense to me. I’ve only been on low A and taking niacin for a little over a month now, and though I still have a ways to go with my health, the breathing issues have completely disappeared for me.

I’ve worked my way up to 500mg currently. I don’t see a downside in trying it for a bit , except for my serotonin being high currently. I might start taking cyproheptadine to block the serotonin receptors while doing this, do you think that would be wise? It’s not going to ruin the flush events or make it less effective, would it?