Anyone experimenting with high carb, low protein, as Peat was doing during 2022?

[ThazMYchocolate]

I have been restricting methionine for about four or five months now. In the morning I will have some sort of organ meats along with a couple eggs, from my own hens fed kitchen scraps, organic non-GMO chicken feed crumble, and organ meats. For the rest of the day it is fresh fruits and I also make Jello out of fruit and beef gelatin and I like to put coconut Cool whip on top.

The biggest thing I've noticed is that I've lost a little bit of weight and I don't get puffy in my legs towards the end of the day. I also like eating a lot of meat but when I do I must get higher ammonia or lactic acid levels. I sleep better and longer at night also

I never heard of this, interesting, I must try! I am not against dairy but I am sure it has more hormones than one would like so I am kinda excited to try this

 

[Jennifer]

I still laugh internally when we are dining out and the server always gives the huge steak I ordered to one of the men on our table lol.

Haha! I love it. I have an appetite that would make even a sumo wrestler do a double take so I understand.

I also have to say starch makes me feel amazing too. So, both meat and starch that many a members here are against, in my experience give me life. I dunno maybe I am doing the wrong thing, but why does it feel so good and doing the ostensible right thing make me feel so miserable!?

Actually, I think there are quite a few members here who feel better with meat and starch. It seems like so many people struggle to find a way of eating that makes them feel good so I would say you’re doing something right. :)

Eat some hot dogs!!

I second this. Enjoy some hot dogs, mamakitty! Applegate hot dogs were a staple of mine when I refed. I was never a big meat eater, but I always liked hot dogs, especially Schonlands mild franks. I’m sure they contain some questionable ingredients, but I survived.

 

[windinthepines]

Not currently, but I followed a high-carb, low-protein diet for a total of about 20 years. It didn’t end well, especially when I went fruitarian—I was averaging 50–60 g of protein a day. Despite being a small, sedentary female and consuming over 3000 calories a day, I was always ravenous. Once I reintroduced animal protein (and fat), doubling my protein intake, I finally felt satiated, and I gained back muscle I hadn’t realized had atrophied while following the diet. I lost inches all over, especially in my waist and I also increased my bone density, substantially.



My grandmother was similar. Her favorite meats were processed, go figure. She lived to be 96 and the only reason why she died is because she wanted to be with my grandfather in heaven so she refused to eat or drink anything. We have quite a few 100+ year olds just in my small town alone, and I don’t know a single one who doesn’t consume meat. My grandmother’s roommate had her 100th birthday when my grandmother passed away. She loves hotdogs. lol

Interesting, thanks.

Out of curiosity, when you were eating your low protein diet, what were your protein sources?

 

[Jessie]

Not currently, but I followed a high-carb, low-protein diet for a total of about 20 years. It didn’t end well, especially when I went fruitarian—I was averaging 50–60 g of protein a day. Despite being a small, sedentary female and consuming over 3000 calories a day, I was always ravenous. Once I reintroduced animal protein (and fat), doubling my protein intake, I finally felt satiated, and I gained back muscle I hadn’t realized had atrophied while following the diet. I lost inches all over, especially in my waist and I also increased my bone density, substantially.

My experience was quite similar, not nearly as long as yours though. But I would always get hungry just a couple of hours after eating. And really I never got "full" even after eating. My foods were mostly rice, potatoes, fruits, honey, coke, 1% milk, coffee, bran, and, occasionally, an egg.

Towards the end I decided to add 1 oz of beef liver daily, but ultimately unable to sustain it. My mood and energy was great, maybe even superior. I can sometimes get sluggish feeling after eating a meal with protein. I suppose it's from the tryptophan.

Best thing for protein I've found is oxtail, because it always supplies a generous amount of gelatin. But my store has unfortunately ran low on it as of late. Due to inflation, about the only people buying it now is local restaurants, and they buy literally ALL of it before I seem to have a chance to get any, lol.

 

[mamakitty]

Omg fruit makes me hungry too! I thought I had something wrong with me. And if I ever try to do a liquid heavy diet, I almost faint and become nauseous @shanny

Eat some hot dogs!!

haha yeah, I’ll probably get hotdogs on valentine’s day lol

 

[mamakitty]

Actually, I think there are quite a few members here who feel better with meat and starch. It seems like so many people struggle to find a way of eating that makes them feel good so I would say you’re doing something right. :)

You are right, there are many members who do appreciate starch! I was also reading an insta post the other day talking about dr dalton’s 3-hour starch diet for curing pms or increasing progesterone. I think it makes sense, and perhaps my body needs it to up the progesterone level or something without me mentally knowing it.
I must add that as much as I love potatoes, sometimes they make me crash and give me hypoglycaemic symptoms, only in the first half of the day though lol

 

[VitoScaletta]

I don't know my grandparents at all.

So take it for what it is.

They grew up in a vegetarian society (NEVER ate meat and rarely if ever ate eggs).

They were farmers and grew up poor. They owned their land. Grandpa was 96, Grandma was 88 on Mom's side. On Dad's side Grandma is 84 and alive. Grandpa died when my Dad was young.

Their diet was basically carbs and milk (they had cows). Everything was fresh (eaten within a day of picking). They lived in India and had tons of sunlight and lots of friends and children. They cooked their vegetables before eating and did not eat anything raw (or rarely).

Never went to a doctor until old age.

I hear similar stories from other families in my community. However the younger generation isn't doing as well. Lots of PUFA now in the diet.

very hard work but inturn they had the highest quality food, and they ate their traditional diet.

were they indian?

 

[shanny]

Omg fruit makes me hungry too! I thought I had something wrong with me. And if I ever try to do a liquid heavy diet, I almost faint and become nauseous @shanny

haha yeah, I’ll probably get hotdogs on valentine’s day lol

Nothing is wrong with you, you're not alone. I actually have never even liked fruit, aside from apples straight off the tree in season. I don't like honey, either. Fruit/sugar gives me blood sugar highs and lows, where starch keeps me much more stable. Everyone is unique and different. I hardly ever drink fluids, other than sipping on coconut water and of course occasional coffee!

 

[mamakitty]

Nothing is wrong with you, you're not alone. I actually have never even liked fruit, aside from apples straight off the tree in season. I don't like honey, either. Fruit/sugar gives me blood sugar highs and lows, where starch keeps me much more stable. Everyone is unique and different. I hardly ever drink fluids, other than sipping on coconut water and of course occasional coffee!

I think you and I are similar in how we react to fruit vs starch. It’s really good to know I’m not alone because when I listen to the podcasts it’s almost always like starch is the devil (exaggeration here lol)

 

[Jessie]

Starch use to make me warmer than fruits after eating them, but I noticed that changed after starting thyroid. They both seem about equal in that regard now. I guess when you're hypo even a slightest increase in liquids can alter outcomes. I do agree starches are usually more filling though.

I think fruits are probably more healthful though, especially for certain people. They generally have lower phosphate, and the higher sugar content excretes more phosphate. They also make me pee more, suggesting a diuretic type effect. I guess all these reasons combined make sense why many kidney protocols emphasize fruits.

 

[Jennifer]

Interesting, thanks.

Out of curiosity, when you were eating your low protein diet, what were your protein sources?

While typing out a list and looking over my blood work—I label my blood work with the diet/foods I’m consuming at the time the test is taken—I realized that I followed a low-protein diet not just for 20 years, but most of my life. 20 years was just vegetarianism and veganism. I’ve followed quite a few variations of low-protein, starting at the age of 11, so hopefully my list isn’t too confusing for you. Even though Ray said fruits contain keto acids, I’m not counting them as a main protein source:

Plant-based vegetarian (roughly 13 years)

• Veggies, mainly potatoes
• Grains
• Legumes
• Dairy (smaller amounts)
• Eggs (smaller amounts)

WFPB vegan 1 (roughly 2 years)

• Root veggies
• Homemade refried beans
• Oats
• Lettuces

80/10/10 raw vegan (roughly 3 years):

• Lettuces (2 lbs daily)
• Green powder

WFPB vegan 2 (roughly 1 year):

• Sweet potatoes (Murasaki white flesh and Stokes purple flesh)
• Winter squash/Pumpkin
• Sprouted lentils
• Sprouted rice
• Thai sticky rice

Potato diet (roughly 4 months):

• Creamer/immature potatoes

Fruitarianism (roughly 4 years):

• Young coconut meat

Fruit-based 1 (roughly 1 year):

• Gelatin/gelatinous broth

Fruit-based 2 (roughly 3 months):

• Skimmed milk
• eggs

Every time I lower my protein too much for too long (more than a couple of months), I start losing a lot of muscle, most noticeably in my hamstrings. I posted what my body looks like on a diet of ample protein versus a low-protein, fruit-based diet here:

Durianrider EXPOSED or TELLING the TRUTH?? | Dr. McDougall | Dr. Greger

Oh, okay. Well, it’s a nice coincidence. :) I agree :relaxed:

raypeatforum.com

And just for comparison, this is my brother who never ate a low-protein diet versus me:

The 50 year old vegan who looks half his age

To me he just doesn't look very manly. Very thin and fragile looking.

raypeatforum.com

 

[Jennifer]

My experience was quite similar, not nearly as long as yours though. But I would always get hungry just a couple of hours after eating. And really I never got "full" even after eating. My foods were mostly rice, potatoes, fruits, honey, coke, 1% milk, coffee, bran, and, occasionally, an egg.

Towards the end I decided to add 1 oz of beef liver daily, but ultimately unable to sustain it. My mood and energy was great, maybe even superior. I can sometimes get sluggish feeling after eating a meal with protein. I suppose it's from the tryptophan.

Best thing for protein I've found is oxtail, because it always supplies a generous amount of gelatin. But my store has unfortunately ran low on it as of late. Due to inflation, about the only people buying it now is local restaurants, and they buy literally ALL of it before I seem to have a chance to get any, lol.

Yes, the never feeling full after eating! I could eat thousands of calories and an obscene amount of fiber, to the point that my belly could burst, and yet be left unsatisfied and wanting more. I drink some raw milk and with every gulp, it’s hitting this pleasure spot. You know, like when a food is so satisfying you catch yourself doing a little happy dance or wiggle? It’s something I’ve noticed that even children do when eating foods they really enjoy. I love carbs, but not a diet of almost nothing but them. Foods are far more satisfying to me when they contain a nice mix of all three macros.

Are you in the states, Jessie? I just checked and US Wellness Meats has oxtail in stock:

Beef Oxtails - 1 lb | US Wellness Meats

Delicious beef oxtail from 100% grass-fed and grass-finished beef cattle. Oxtail make an excellent soup or stock and are in high demand! Each package contains 1 lb - Oxtail.

grasslandbeef.com

 

[Limon9]

These are some good testimonies, @Jennifer, and I'm glad you've found a way to recover. I can't believe people take Durian Rider seriously: he's jacked into the aesthetics-mongering machine, with his leanness due to extreme exercise (and steroid use?). The cosmetic cost of protein restriction to even 10% of calories - double what he eats - is undeniable:

"Diets that were low in protein and high in carbohydrate (i.e., those that promoted longest life) were associated with lower blood pressure (Figures 5C and 5D), improved glucose tolerance (Figure 6A), higher levels of high-density lipoprotein (HDLc; Figure 6B), reduced levels of low-density lipoprotein (LDLc; Figure 6C), and lower triglycerides (Figure 6D). This is consistent with human data suggesting that long-term adherence to high protein, low-carbohydrate diets is linked with increased cardiovascular disease (Floegel and Pischon, 2012; Lagiou et al., 2012) and indicates that the balance of protein to carbohydrate, rather than energy intake, may be the driver of a healthy cardiometabolic profile. However, diets with low protein:carbohydrate ratios were also associated with some characteristics usually considered to be associated with poorer health outcomes, such as increased body fat with reduced body lean (Figure 5B) and fatty liver (Figure S5). These paradoxical results are consistent with some human epidemiological studies that indicate that in old age there is a diminution, or even reversal, of the association between these risk factors and outcomes such as remaining life expectancy (Le Couteur and Simpson, 2011)." (R)

To attain the leanness seen in full (80%) methionine-restriction animal studies, if it's even possible, would require specialized medical food, while the realistic (~40%) reductions tend to improve mitochondrial integrity, with animals remaining normal or skinny-fat. (R)

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“The double bonds in Omega 3’s are anti-thyroid and pro-estrogen.

High cortisol and high estrogen cause leaky capillaries.

Methionine restriction increases lifespan 40%.

Get enough milk when eating oatmeal. Milk has calcium and anti-stress factors.

Cold foods causes a stress reaction and vascular restriction. Could have a potentially deadly result.

Isotonic glucose solution for recovery from low energy production.

What are the benefits and methods of increasing your carbon dioxide? Helps heart vessels relax and blood flow easily. Bones get more dense.

Low carbon dioxide increases lactic acid. A sign of overbreathing.

If at rest, the liver takes lactic acid out of the blood and makes glucose. Need good thyroid function for that to happen.

Progesterone and thyroid support each other.

Active thyroid hormone T-3 has 12 hour residency, thyroxine has 2 week residency in the body.

What should a listener with lymphocytic leukemia with high lymphocyte numbers do?. Measure both lactic acid and carbon dioxide. CO2 slows cell growth. Take aspirin, which is anti-inflammatory.

Is baby aspirin good for the heart? Is Reyes Syndrome a concern? Is Tylenol responsible for toxic effects attributed to aspirin?

Phil questions if calcium interferes with absorption of other minerals such as magnesium.

What causes dry macular degeneration? Can it be reversed? Stop deteriorating capillaries. Aspirin is generally protective.

How to increase B vitamins? Balanced diet. Low-fat.

Can methylene blue be taken with sirolimus tablet? MB is an electron donor and receptor. Used for Alzheimer’s, depression.

What to do for Ankylosing Spondylitis?

Why is ivermectin helpful? Anti-inflammatory effect, parasite killer.

What are good brands of canned oysters? Crown Prince in olive oil taste good, don’t know about toxins. South American sourced preferable.

Oysters are rich in sea minerals. Selenium, copper, etc. Lobster also good.

Chris wants to know what to do about very dry skin and says PUFAS are all that seem to help. Correct thyroid function to oil and moisturize skin.

Dr. Peat recommends TSH of 0.5 and below. Says PUFA levels in blood can throw off T3 and T4. Macadamia nuts and cashews are good because low in PUFAs.

Avoid cottonseed, canola, soy, corn oils. A little cacao blocks the PUFA in canola.

How to shrink a large prostate? Progesterone, aspirin, thyroid.

Don’t need to take the full dose of an antibiotic.

L. reuteri, bacillus subtilus cultures for yogurt.

Listener asks why he’s gained fat after using progesterone cream on neck and oral DHEA? Progesterone creams aren’t absorbed on the skin.

Is iodine recommended for someone in a goiter zone? A little bit of iodized salt is good. Nodules and cancer of thyroid also affected by iodine.

Is a small amount of T4 at night recommended? If having stressful nights. The body doesn’t release endogenous thyroid all at once in the morning, better to space out during day.

Estrogen inhibits conversion of T4 to active T3. Is why women have 10 times incidence of hypothyroidism.

If thyroid low, get thin, frail hairs.

Systemic enzymes get rid of fibrin and blood clots. Does aspirin act the same way? Antigenic traces of fungus in systemic enzymes. Pancreatic enzymes carry risk of infections, but are the best choice.

What is a good cortisol level?

Good supplements for persistent cough and inflamed intestine from COVID? Serotonin, easy to digest foods, keeping CO2 up.

How low can saturated oxygen level go? Would CO2 be helpful? Baking soda regulates pH.

What causes paronychia? Vitamin A around nails.

Would eating farm raised chickens 4-5 times a week be harmful because of high Omega 6? Yes. US chicken and pork have more than 30% PUFAs.

Recommendations for sagging and extremely dehydrated skin? Thyroid regulates hydration and oil in skin.

Anxiety is a suppressor of the thyroid. Great shock and accidents are often a trigger for turning the thyroid off. Fear campaigns today are harming everyone’s bodies and minds.

Dr. Peat likes Dr. Bhakti’s thinking and his assertion that COVID and the vaccine are criminal and chemical warfare.

What causes lupus? How to help broken capillaries? Change diet, supplement thyroid and progesterone, avoid allergens. From too much estrogen.

How much protein is Dr. Peat doing? 50 – 60 mg/daily.

Listener calls about an atrial fibrillation episode and her treatments. Could the 4 cookies she ate just before the onset be the trigger? Yes, intestinal disturbances can disturb heart rhythm.

How much orange juice does Dr. Peat drink every day? A quart, for the anti-inflammatory effects. Now trying a pint of concord grape juice and a pint of orange juice.

What to do for bruxism? Improve digestion. Intestinal disturbances disturb serotonin.

Good alternatives to eating oysters and shellfish? Get selenium.“

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Anyone experimenting with high carb, low protein, as Peat was doing during 2022?

He talks about it in an interview with Timpone (Dr. Ray Peat, Ph.D - Your Health Questions Answered - March 23, 2022 | One Radio Network) and in an interview with Roddy and Haidut.

Anyone else experimenting with this? What have your results been like? I'm curious to try it.

Great interview! I had forgotten about my sprouted oatmeal, this past few months! I need to make a pot of them tomorrow, and get bake too my blueberry and apple crisps too! The weather is perfect for them. I am going to have to look up that Dr. Bhakti too.

 

[mamakitty]

Starch use to make me warmer than fruits after eating them, but I noticed that changed after starting thyroid. They both seem about equal in that regard now. I guess when you're hypo even a slightest increase in liquids can alter outcomes. I do agree starches are usually more filling though.

I think fruits are probably more healthful though, especially for certain people. They generally have lower phosphate, and the higher sugar content excretes more phosphate. They also make me pee more, suggesting a diuretic type effect. I guess all these reasons combined make sense why many kidney protocols emphasize fruits.

Good points! I concur fruit is good for you, but shunning starch altogether is not good for everyone. I also agree hypothyroidism is probably to blame for my need for starch and meat, but it’s a night and day difference for me personally.
Re diuretic effect of fruit and liquids, I read a large study showing peeing a lot is detrimental to kidneys. I will try to find the pdf to post here. Also, I remember hearing from dr. Peat suggesting sweating in lieu of peeing is kinda good. I’m not sure if I remember him correctly tho.

 

[Jennifer]

You are right, there are many members who do appreciate starch! I was also reading an insta post the other day talking about dr dalton’s 3-hour starch diet for curing pms or increasing progesterone. I think it makes sense, and perhaps my body needs it to up the progesterone level or something without me mentally knowing it.
I must add that as much as I love potatoes, sometimes they make me crash and give me hypoglycaemic symptoms, only in the first half of the day though lol

Huh, no other starches give you hypoglycemic symptoms, just potatoes? Do you find that your blood sugar overall is more wonky during the first half of the day? When I was following RBTI, I had to track my urine Brix (relates to blood sugar) with a refractometer and I discovered that my sugars were crashing multiple times during the first half of the day and when I tracked my mum's Brix, her sugars were crashing around the same time as mine. My blood glucose levels were also coming back dangerously low during that time—averaging 50.

 

[Jennifer]

These are some good testimonies, @Jennifer, and I'm glad you've found a way to recover. I can't believe people take Durian Rider seriously: he's jacked into the aesthetics-mongering machine, with his leanness due to extreme exercise (and steroid use?). The cosmetic cost of protein restriction to even 10% of calories - double what he eats - is undeniable:

To attain the leanness seen in full (80%) methionine-restriction animal studies, if it's even possible, would require specialized medical food, while the realistic (~40%) reductions tend to improve mitochondrial integrity, with animals remaining normal or skinny-fat. (R)

Thank you. :) Yeah, Harley…bless his heart. The results of that study are very interesting. Thank you for posting it. I’ve seen a lot of long-term, high-carb, low-protein dieters/fruitarians suffering from major muscle loss, even at my age. Most of them move to tropical countries, live a low-stress lifestyle, eat the best quality fruit and are active, yet they still experience muscle wasting. One man even grew his own fruit forest and he ended up dying at 76 from kidney failure a few years back. Another longer-term fruitarian who was well-known among Dr. Robert Morse followers just died last February from a stroke. She was only 56. I spent so much time in the fruitarian community and researching the history of fruitarianism, and the overall outcomes of the life-style are alarming.

 

[Jessie]

Yes, the never feeling full after eating! I could eat thousands of calories and an obscene amount of fiber, to the point that my belly could burst, and yet be left unsatisfied and wanting more. I drink some raw milk and with every gulp, it’s hitting this pleasure spot. You know, like when a food is so satisfying you catch yourself doing a little happy dance or wiggle? It’s something I’ve noticed that even children do when eating foods they really enjoy. I love carbs, but not a diet of almost nothing but them. Foods are far more satisfying to me when they contain a nice mix of all three macros.

Are you in the states, Jessie? I just checked and US Wellness Meats has oxtail in stock:

Beef Oxtails - 1 lb | US Wellness Meats

Delicious beef oxtail from 100% grass-fed and grass-finished beef cattle. Oxtail make an excellent soup or stock and are in high demand! Each package contains 1 lb - Oxtail.

grasslandbeef.com

Yeah I agree. You gotta have some mixture just to avoid blandness. I don't think people realize how bland and tasteless a pure carbohydrate diet can be. In fact, I personally find fatty foods to be much more pleasurable and addictive than carb loaded foods. It's why back in my low-carb days I always found it to be effortless. Bacon, eggs, steak, butter, I was like a kid in a candy store, lol. Throw in some whisky and I have no reason to leave the fort for 3 months .

Thanks for the link, I do live in the States. I was also considering an online distributor so you just removed a lot of the searching I was going to have to do! I'm not sure how much that will be after shipping costs but it looks cheaper per lb than the product my local Costco sells.

 

[Sedonagal]

Thank you. :) Yeah, Harley…bless his heart. The results of that study are very interesting. Thank you for posting it. I’ve seen a lot of long-term, high-carb, low-protein dieters/fruitarians suffering from major muscle loss, even at my age. Most of them move to tropical countries, live a low-stress lifestyle, eat the best quality fruit and are active, yet they still experience muscle wasting. One man even grew his own fruit forest and he ended up dying at 76 from kidney failure a few years back. Another longer-term fruitarian who was well-known among Dr. Robert Morse followers just died last February from a stroke. She was only 56. I spent so much time in the fruitarian community and researching the history of fruitarianism, and the overall outcomes of the life-style are alarming.

Wasn’t Steve Jobs a fruitarian and he died of pancreatic cancer?